Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 86

Thread: Reworking the Beginner Moves

  1. #61
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I know I am only scratching the surface of what I need to learn from Skippy. You need to do a minimum of 200 hours of teacher training before you can do the GSDTA exam.
    Wow..... she really does have you wrapped around her little finger doesn't she? Sign me up for that marketing course too please Straycat!

    OK, I admit it - I'm feigning surprise there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd
    The learning curve for most beginners is really steep and shouldn't be underestimated. So it is, and should be, kept nice and simple to give them a easy step into the world of partner dance. Give them an easy foundation that can then be built on. Let's face it - we want them to enjoy themselves! If they don't then they probably won't come back... Walk first, run when you're ready...
    What we're discussing is really aimed at the teachers rather than the dancers.

    Beginners don't need to be told that all the moves they're doing are based on a consistent number of beats*, let alone why they're done that way.

    What is important though is that they start to get a basic feel for how things slot together. That way, further down the track if this other stuff does become important to them they'll find their newfound knowledge much easier to apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd
    I agree that certain core technicalities can not be ignored, like connection, lead/follow, basic timing (the beat), even spining, etc. And are all given, in my experience, reasonable amounts of input during the beginner lessons/warm up.

    Certainly Ceroc seem to have it pretty well sussed.
    That's really a matter of perspective. Personally I don't see nearly enough attention to the core technicalities, and I think it shows on the social dance floor**.

    * I'm fairly certain it isn't consistently taught that way anyway.
    ** This matters to me, but may not to you. Mileage may vary.

  2. #62
    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    r=1-sin(wt)
    Posts
    1,301
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Starting from where we are now, it'd be very difficult to make big changes to the list of beginners' moves.

    I personally think that the catapult is a bit odd to teach to beginners. There aren't many times when you freespin the follower 1.5 turns in social dancing, apart from doing the catapult. There's also a massive difference in the way people dance it, with some people leading lightly 'til the follower gets to their left side, then spinning them roughly on the spot, and others making the spinning motion come evenly on the end of the pull forward section.

    However, given that straight after the beginners class they'll be dancing with intermediates who'll be doing catapults in nearly every dance, it is necessary to teach it.

    As for changing the name of (the) FirstMove

  3. #63
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove
    I personally think that the catapult is a bit odd to teach to beginners. There aren't many times when you freespin the follower 1.5 turns in social dancing, apart from doing the catapult.
    Perhaps that’s true for you, or where you live and dance, but it isn’t necessarily true everywhere. I often spin my follower 1.5 times (very much like a travelling return with an extra spin), and occasionally even 2.5 times or more. For that matter, I spin myself 1.5 often enough to be noticeable (to me at least).

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove
    There's also a massive difference in the way people dance it, with some people leading lightly 'til the follower gets to their left side, then spinning them roughly on the spot, and others making the spinning motion come evenly on the end of the pull forward section.
    The same can be said for pretty much every move though. That’s one of the problems with not teaching much in the way of basic technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove
    However, given that straight after the beginners class they'll be dancing with intermediates who'll be doing catapults in nearly every dance, it is necessary to teach it.
    The counter argument is that the ladies should just be following anyway and the men are picking the moves they know, so it shouldn’t matter.

    Of course, I don’t really think it’s as simple as that. You need to learn how to follow movements in my opinion, which means you need moves like the catapult that have something about them that quite different from other moves. I’m in favour of keeping the catapult for that reason.

  4. #64
    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    r=1-sin(wt)
    Posts
    1,301
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Perhaps that’s true for you, or where you live and dance, but it isn’t necessarily true everywhere.
    Please attack the post, not the poster.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I often spin my follower 1.5 times (very much like a travelling return with an extra spin), and occasionally even 2.5 times or more. For that matter, I spin myself 1.5 often enough to be noticeable (to me at least).
    Likewise, I freespin or turn myself 2+ times on the spot in nearly every dance. I think what is unusual about the catapult is that the follower is taken into the spin from a travelling start, not spun from stationary on the spot.

  5. #65
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove View Post
    Please attack the post, not the poster.
    I wasn't attacking anything - post or poster. I was just pointing out that the big picture is often a bit different from the one we're used to locally.

    I live in NZ, where the norm is different from what you've stated. Free spins of 1.5 turns are quite a bit more common here in freestyle. In fact, they're so common they're pretty much unremarkable. On this forum, the big picture is often very different from my local one so I'm quite used to having a different perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove
    I think what is unusual about the catapult is that the follower is taken into the spin from a travelling start, not spun from stationary on the spot.
    I’m not sure I understand what you mean here.

    In a Ceroc Spin for example (probably the first free spin move you’d learn) the follower is travelling into the prep, and may or may not keep travelling during the spin as well. Likewise, a catapult can either have the follower travelling the whole time, or barriered right beside you (and therefore stationary) before being spun on the spot.

  6. #66
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Cruden Bay (Aberde
    Posts
    7,053
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove View Post
    Likewise, I freespin or turn myself 2+ times on the spot in nearly every dance. I think what is unusual about the catapult is that the follower is taken into the spin from a travelling start, not spun from stationary on the spot.
    ? Every* spin (should) have the follower stepping onto the turning foot, then stopping with feet together and a weight transfer to the other foot to step back with the turning foot.

    Common flaws in the spin out from a catapult happen when the followers anticipate and start to turn when beside the lead, and leads start to spin the followers before they have led them in front of them.

    Personally I hold the left arm out as a block before leading the follower in front of me (and on this lead side-stepping to share the distance travelled). On the spin, the end 'flick' of the hand is forward, away from me (rather than to the side) so I trace/guide the follower's rotation before letting go.

    (* "Every" meaning "most", or at least "quite a few", but certainly more than "one or two" )


    To go back to the original question, I think that most of the moves are just about spot on - I would perhaps subtlety change a couple of things within the moves (like above).

  7. #67
    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    r=1-sin(wt)
    Posts
    1,301
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    ? Every* spin (should) have the follower stepping onto the turning foot, then stopping with feet together and a weight transfer to the other foot to step back with the turning foot.

    Common flaws in the spin out from a catapult happen when the followers anticipate and start to turn when beside the lead, and leads start to spin the followers before they have led them in front of them.
    Here are some official Ceroc's instructions on the Catapult:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceroc
    Catapult... 6 beats and a 2 beat return (RH) 1.SB 2.turn partner ac/w under R arm as you SI side to side 3.changing places,man goes forward and partner goes back taking man's spare LH and lean away from each other 4.bring partner into your L side, and let go w/RH 5.spin partner c/w w/LH letting go 6.SB as you catch 7.SI to RT 8.SB
    Spinning the follower starts when she's on your left and she ends up in front of you afterwards. That step she takes before spinning on the spot must be very big.

    I'm pretty sure followers combine spinning and travelling to get back to a position facing the leader.

  8. #68
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove View Post
    Spinning the follower starts when she's on your left and she ends up in front of you afterwards. That step she takes before spinning on the spot must be very big.
    I have a feeling that description may be written in "Ceroc beats" rather than musical ones - in which case the follower has two beats to get there. That isn't unreasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firstmove
    I'm pretty sure followers combine spinning and travelling to get back to a position facing the leader.
    That's my experience too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceroc
    1.SB ........6.SB ........8.SB
    There's something that bothers me about the way these moves are described. If the step back is the beginning of the move then stepping back on 1 makes sense. If stepping back is the end of the move then stepping back on the 6 (or whatever it happens to be) makes sense.

    At the moment, we have a step back at both the beginning and end, so that if you were to repeat the move over and over according to this description you'd be stepping back twice in a row somehow.

    Of course you can claim that the last step back is also the first step back of the next move, which would be fine if the descriptions of the moves had an odd number of counts....but they don't.

  9. #69
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    St Neots, Cambs
    Posts
    699
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove View Post
    I'm pretty sure followers combine spinning and travelling to get back to a position facing the leader.
    I think that you're missing Gadget's point, the travel in the clockwise spin at count 5 in the catapult is accomplished by the follow stepping forward on their right foot and spinning on it (and with the right momentum and the help of the stirring action from the lead even newbies can manage 1 1/2 turns without any trouble.

    Now personally I'm crap at spinning but I know that our local venue people are taught to spin by the simple activity of weight transfer to the appropriate foot (right for clockwise and left for anti-clockwise) then doing the turning action coming back to face the lead of course. The difference between travelling or staying on the spot in the spin is as simple as the difference between this weight transfer being an actual physical step or not, and in the catapult the follow really has no option but to step since at count 4 the lead actually gets the follow moving forward anyway and we all know that in dancing the simple rule is that if the lead gets you stepping forward you should carry on in the same direction until you get another input to change this.

    Agent 000
    Licensed to Dance

  10. #70
    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    r=1-sin(wt)
    Posts
    1,301
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    There's something that bothers me about the way these moves are described. If the step back is the beginning of the move then stepping back on 1 makes sense. If stepping back is the end of the move then stepping back on the 6 (or whatever it happens to be) makes sense.
    The only Ceroc teacher I know who actually counts through moves with numbers does count the first and last step backs when teaching the moves individually. He drops the last count when stringing moves together. Every other teacher run through the standard Ceroc script.

  11. #71
    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    r=1-sin(wt)
    Posts
    1,301
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    I think that you're missing Gadget's point, the travel in the clockwise spin at count 5 in the catapult is accomplished by the follow stepping forward on their right foot and spinning on it (and with the right momentum and the help of the stirring action from the lead even newbies can manage 1 1/2 turns without any trouble.
    If the lady takes a step forward and then spins on the spot, she'll end up diagonally to the left of the man. I think either she takes a big step diagonally to the right and spins on the spot in front of the man; or takes two quick small steps to get in front of the man and spins; or simultaneously spins and travels around the man. (Or the man sneakily steps to the left ).

    Anyway, this wasn't meant to be a thread about the mechanics of catapults. What I meant originally was that the spinny bit in the catapult is different to most other spinny bits. That's my view and I'm sticking to it



    I think I'd be good to add a crucifix move to the beginners' set. It'd be a good excuse to do some Ladies' styling in the beginners' class. I'd also add a move where the man does a full turn under the lady's hand, perhaps on the end of a travelling return.

  12. #72
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Cruden Bay (Aberde
    Posts
    7,053
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove View Post
    Here are some official Ceroc's instructions on the Catapult:.
    ... yea, as I said, I wouldn't change the moves, just tweak how they are done a little bit:

    Cattapult (with slight tweaks as I think it would be better done):
    1) lead step back.
    You know that the follower is going to be travelling down your right on the next count, so stepping on a slight diagonal left while keeping the same orientation will ease the next bit.

    2) Step forward, leading partner forward while raising right hand over partner's head.
    To make sure that the lead is given forward first, the right arm should brush past your right thigh before starting to raise. Again, to keep the follower moving in a straight line, the step forward is at a slight diagonal so the lead moves out of the way. At the top of the lead hand's arc, the follower should be almost facing the same direction as the lead having stepped onto a pivoting foot. The lead should try and make sure that they step slightly beyond this foot.

    3) Lead the follower back and pose.
    Use the lowering action to actually lead the follower to take a step back to end up directly behind the lead. The style I like is to slide the right foot out to the right, straddling the follower's slot that they have just travelled down, but I used to favour planting the right foot on the slot and having the left slightly in-front. The left arm is extended behind to mirror the right arm. Pushing the weight forward and lifting the arms behind enhances the shape this move creates.

    4) lead the follower to the left side.
    As with the first two counts, it works better taking a slight step to the right as the lead is stepping (back). The left arm is extended no higher than waist level while the right is taken to the left hip behind the lead's back. I also use the left leg as an echo of the left arm's barrier. This should lead the follower to step up behind the arm.

    5) Lead the follower in front and into a free-spin.
    The lead here is with the left hand, horizontally at waist level, releasing the right. Again, share the travelling with the follower and step 'behind' them while they step 'infront' of you. (Followers should be spinning on the foot they will step onto in front of the lead - they are kind of stuck there while spinning, so the lead should be able to align themselves to ensure that wherever that point is, at the end of the rotation it's directly infront of the lead.) The lead hand moves first to the lead's right to encourage the step, then towards themselves to begin the follower's rotation, and continues in an arc around the follower's waist to be released as the follower pulls away into a free-spin.

    6) The hand is taken on a step back.
    The lead looks to make contact about the follower's offered fore-arm as the rotation concludes. The hand is slid down to collect hand to hand while both the lead and follower step back in unison. If a L-R hand hold is wanted, then the catching hand remains in place from when it released the follower; hands naturally fall into place. Catching with the other hand requires making contact with the fore-arm while the follower is still coming out of the rotation, and letting them finish before collecting on the step back.



    There are some small differences, but in essence it's the same move as is taught up and down the collective
    If taken to extreme, then it can end up very reminiscent of WCS: lead travels right and left over a slot while follower travels up and down it. I prefer to keep my dancing looking more like MJ by both sharing the movement - the lead moves half way out of the follower's path and they in turn move half way out of the lead's path. (Most "beginner" MJ dancers will have the follower orbit the lead - in general, lead's need to move more)

    It's how I dance it and how I lead it. I have several variations from every count within the move that I put in, for example: on 2) rotate yourself rather than going for a pose. 3) raise the right hand to right shoulder rather than taking it to left hip. 4) block and reverse, spinning out the right side. 5) take the hand up and turn rather than free-spin. I would like to see moves taught with a "non essential" variation that would keep the followers from anticipating and give a bit of variety - even if it's as simple as holding a pose for a count. {Which I suppose the comb and short-comb variants do}

  13. #73
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    53
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Get rid of the *#$@% cleaver!
    Not a big fan to put it mildly, took me ages to even vaguely get the hang of it, whilst most other beginner moves I get pretty much straight away, then just have to work on footwork, technique etc.

  14. #74
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Neu Wien View Post
    Get rid of the *#$@% cleaver!
    Not a big fan to put it mildly, took me ages to even vaguely get the hang of it, whilst most other beginner moves I get pretty much straight away, then just have to work on footwork, technique etc.
    Not a beginner move in the UK

  15. #75
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    53
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Not a beginner move in the UK
    That's it, I'm moving to the UK!

    That's an interesting point actually, can someone tell me what beginner moves are different between the UK and Australia?

    This is the list of Ceroc Australia beginner moves...

    Left hand-
    American Spin, Figure of 8, First Move, Pretzel, U-Turn I-Turn, CJ, Neck Break, Throwaway, Breakthroughs Man/Lady, Comb, Breakthroughs Blink/Neck, Conan Spin, Lazy Yo-Yo

    Right hand- Accordian, Bow Tie, Lady Comb, Hip Spin, Springer, Windmill, Aerial YoYo, Checks/Rotating Checks, Right Handed Figure 8, Lady Spin/Man Spin, Sway, Back Pass, Cleaver Hatchback, Secret Move, Wellington Rtn

    Double- Accordian Spin, Flick Spin, Octopus, Towel (lady) Basket, Fountain Break, Push Pulls, Swizzlestick, Basket Swap, Rotating Heel, Slider, Towel.

    Plus I've been taught a few moves in lessons not on that list (ie Side to Side, Astaire Leave, First Move variations)

    Seems like quite a stack of moves now I look at it, I know about 12 after 3 lessons

    Some of them might just have different names in the UK which is fair enough, but which moves are beginner moves in Australia but not in the UK and vica versa?

    A first one I notice is not on the Australia list is the Catapult, which someone suggested should not be a beginner move earlier in the thread...

  16. #76
    The Dashing Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Midlands
    Posts
    3,556
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Neu Wien View Post
    That's an interesting point actually, can someone tell me what beginner moves are different between the UK and Australia?
    Here is a list of the UK Ceroc Beginners Moves
    Love dance, will travel

  17. #77
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    53
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Thanks. OK, here we go...

    Backpass, Basket, First Move, Manspin, Octopus, Yo-Yo = same

    Armjive = Push Pulls, Cerocspin=Ladyspin, otherwise the same

    I don't think we have Catapult, In and Out or Shoulderdrop on our list

    Neither are Shoulderslide or Side to Side on our list but I have been taught them in class.

    For us the Slo Comb is just a normal comb.


    In terms of what is a beginner move for Ceroc Australia but not in the UK, there's something like 30 moves extra in Australia! (see above to work out what they are...)

    Is this a good thing, what do people think?

  18. #78
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Neu Wien View Post
    ... what do people think?
    It is more important how they act, which follows on from how they feel and think.

    The simple question is "Do they come back again?".

    It is just guesswork, unless the organisers take the simple business measure of recording what moves were taught by whom to what level of dancer.

    Each new member should be asked how much partner dance experience they have already.

    Who the teacher, DJ and Taxi dancers are, and what moves were taught should be recorded.

    Any abnormal events which might affect the stats should be recorded.

    If the organiser runs enough venues then some reliable stats will eventually emerge on the popularity of the moves. If a particular unpopular move teaches an essential skill, then an alternative that teaches that skill can be tested, and the technique of the better teachers and Taxi dancers can be examined for that move. There may be teacher gender differences in effectiveness for some moves, that can be examined.

    ------------

    I would worry if a large number of moves are taught equally often. My guess is that teaching more beginner moves would be an improvement on the UK model, if they were divided into core, common and "intromediate". I have suggested before that it might be an an idea to have the level of beginner class and intermediate classes gradually increase through the month to ease the transition from beginner to intermediate. The dancers could move up at the beginning of the month, and then drop back to beginner refresher to do the more difficult beginner class and avoid the more difficult intermediate class.

    When people start Ceroc it is something different. Some leave because it becomes something the same. The fifth week of 5 week months could be used for "fun" or speciality classes.

  19. #79
    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    r=1-sin(wt)
    Posts
    1,301
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Neu Wien View Post
    Cerocspin=Ladyspin
    They are different moves in the UK. The difference is whether you spin the lady from the wrist or the fist.

    Ceroc here used to have wurlitzers, sways, hatchbacks, a different yoyo and 1/2 windmills. The instructions about how to comb changed for a while too.

    Just about every non-ceroc company has a different list of beginner moves. Pretzels, neck breaks, swizzles and blocked first moves are quite common.

  20. #80
    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    r=1-sin(wt)
    Posts
    1,301
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I have suggested before that it might be an an idea to have the level of beginner class and intermediate classes gradually increase through the month to ease the transition from beginner to intermediate. The dancers could move up at the beginning of the month, and then drop back to beginner refresher to do the more difficult beginner class and avoid the more difficult intermediate class.
    There's already one Ceroc teacher that uses that model. Typically he starts with 4 moves from the intermediate list in week 1, then changes the balance through the month. The intermediate class is very poorly attended in weeks 1 and 2 of each month.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. I need a moves toolbox, where can I get one?
    By DundeeDancer in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 23rd-April-2008, 01:15 PM
  2. Is there a list of the beginner moves on the web site?
    By Lois in forum Beginners corner
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 23rd-June-2005, 11:51 PM
  3. Beginner Moves: Tips & advice
    By Gadget in forum Beginners corner
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: 15th-April-2005, 03:31 PM
  4. adapting your moves to the music
    By Little Monkey in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 29th-March-2005, 06:55 PM
  5. Remembering intermediate moves
    By tsh in forum Intermediate Corner
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 18th-September-2004, 04:34 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •