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Thread: Reworking the Beginner Moves

  1. #41
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Half of my fun in MJ is trying to hit musical phrases with moves of variable length. If everything was a multiple of 4 beats, then you'd automatically hit every break on a "1" (or at least be doing a "rock" on every "1" in Alan's case) and automatically miss every other break.
    Most breaks are on 1, and most musical phrases are in multiples of 4 (if you mean what I think you mean by 'musical phrase'.) Eitherway, as mentioned above, I'm not trying to get beginners to hit breaks. Nor am I suggesting you restrict the dance to the basic framework taught to beginners.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    4-Count Hustle & Modern Jive share the same basic patterns
    But they have fundamentally different timing and expectation.

    You can break down both dances into a series of 2-beat movements. In 4-count hustle these would start on the downbeat, and finish on the upbeat. In Modern Jive they would start on the upbeat and finish on the downbeat. (In my view that difference alone makes them completely different dances, as an upbeat and a downbeat are completely different.)

    I usually talk about expectation in relation to what you do from one 2-beat movement to the next. However the expectation of what you do within each 2-beat movement is even greater.

    In Modern Jive the follower would expect the direction of travel (or turning) to be continuous throughout the 2-beat movement, and any significant changes of direction to be between these 2-beat movements. So to move backwards and then forwards (as at the start of the first move) would take 4 beats, ie 2 beats to go back, then the change in direction, and 2 beats to go forward. They would not expect to be led backwards on the first beat of a movement, and forwards on the second beat, as you would do in 4-count hustle. This is a significant difference. If you know you are doing a rock step, even if you fully commit your weight, you will not take your centre over your foot. You will stop short so that you are ready to take a step forward a quarter of a second later. If however you are expecting to take two steps back, you take your centre over your foot and beyond, so that you can do the second step in the same direction.

    Thinking about it in more detail, how would you lead the rock step. As I'm sure you know, in the far more common 3-count hustle you never go into leverage to lead the lady to step forward. (Many hustle followers would just walk off the floor if you pulled them.) Would you go into leverage in your version?

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Second - as virtually all music used for MJ employs phrases which are multiples of four beats in length, so sticking to four beat moves gives people a lot of flexibility.
    Then wouldn't it follow that the current 2 beat (1 count) multiple gives people more flexibility? So by introducing a "standard" 4 beat multiple actually limits the dance.

    As does stepping on every beat rather than every count: you no longer have the option of halving the beat or stretching it with footwork.

    But I suppose giving people less options and more rules to what's "right" and "wrong" makes it easier to teach and easier to learn... assuming you actually want to be bound to these conventions.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    Thinking about it in more detail, how would you lead the rock step. As I'm sure you know, in the far more common 3-count hustle you never go into leverage to lead the lady to step forward. (Many hustle followers would just walk off the floor if you pulled them.) Would you go into leverage in your version?
    Skippy teaches Hustle differently than anyone else teaches it...leading the rock step is one of many things I need clarification on when I go over August.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    In Modern Jive the follower would expect the direction of travel (or turning) to be continuous throughout the 2-beat movement, and any significant changes of direction to be between these 2-beat movements. So to move backwards and then forwards (as at the start of the first move) would take 4 beats, ie 2 beats to go back, then the change in direction, and 2 beats to go forward. They would not expect to be led backwards on the first beat of a movement, and forwards on the second beat, as you would do in 4-count hustle.

    Personally, if I'm leading a preparatory step back, I usually lead it as a rock-step (back on 1, forward on 2) Musical beats here, not 'MJ counts'.

    Followers don't seem to have a problem with this - I don't know what they're expecting, but they always follow it just fine. Your post made me wonder if this was something that Lindy had 'conditioned' me into doing, so I hit YouTube, and started looking for teaching examples.

    Of course - the first thing I noticed was that the rather vague counting employed on most of the clips makes it very hard to tell what they're doing.... but many do seem to vaguely resemble back-for-1&2 (ish).

    Then the classic example came with , where, watching the initial runthrough, they do it one way (back on 1, forward on 2 - at least for her - he goes back on 8,1 AND 2, and forward on 3 )
    In the breakdown they go back for 1,2 then forward on 3. In the final runthrough it changes yet again.

    At which point, I gave up.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Skippy teaches Hustle differently than anyone else teaches it...leading the rock step is one of many things I need clarification on when I go over August.
    Anyone else? How do you know this?

    And if you are seeking clarification in August should you really be teaching it now?

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Then wouldn't it follow that the current 2 beat (1 count) multiple gives people more flexibility? So by introducing a "standard" 4 beat multiple actually limits the dance.
    *thinks for a moment*
    No. It wouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    As does stepping on every beat rather than every count: you no longer have the option of halving the beat or stretching it with footwork.
    MJ is already danced by stepping on every beat, rather than every count. Which never stopped anyone from halving or stretching the beat, not to mention doubling or quadrupling it, syncopating it, or doing anything else they might feel like doing to a beat....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    But I suppose giving people less options and more rules to what's "right" and "wrong" makes it easier to teach and easier to learn... assuming you actually want to be bound to these conventions.
    I shouldn't really put words in his mouth, but I suspect that Amir isn't talking about redefining or restricting the dance. Certainly I read it as glimpse on his thoughts on giving beginners an 'enhanced' toolkit to base their dancing on. Of course - I could be completely wrong about that

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Skippy teaches Hustle differently than anyone else teaches it...leading the rock step is one of many things I need clarification on when I go over August.
    To clarify what you want clarification on - do you need her to clarify whether to lead it, why you lead it, how you lead it, some mix of the above, or something else?

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Anyone else? How do you know this?

    And if you are seeking clarification in August should you really be teaching it now?
    I know I am only scratching the surface of what I need to learn from Skippy. You need to do a minimum of 200 hours of teacher training before you can do the GSDTA exam.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I know I am only scratching the surface of what I need to learn from Skippy. You need to do a minimum of 200 hours of teacher training before you can do the GSDTA exam.
    Right. That's it. I'm off to the States to see if Skippy will teach me her marketing methods. She really does have it all figured out, doesn't she?

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    MJ is already danced by stepping on every beat, rather than every count.
    When the teacher counts us in (5, 6, 7, 8) they do each count on every other beat of the music. MJ isn't every beat - it's every other beat.

    IMO This thread has gone way too deep technically considering it is meant to be about beginner moves..! Beginner moves designed for people who, most commonly, have zero partner dance experience at all... Or musicology...

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by todd View Post
    When the teacher counts us in (5, 6, 7, 8) they do each count on every other beat of the music. MJ isn't every beat - it's every other beat.
    Indeed they do count people in like that (a recent thread that touched on this is to be found here) - but MJ is still danced on every beat.

    Quote Originally Posted by todd View Post
    IMO This thread has gone way too deep technically considering it is meant to be about beginner moves..! Beginner moves designed for people who, most commonly, have zero partner dance experience at all... Or musicology...
    Yes - but there can be a significant difference between a thread about beginners' moves, and a thread for beginners. Sometimes you need to get complicated in order to simplify. Seriously

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Yeah, point taken - fair enough StrayCat!

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    My basic belief is that you can get people to dance better without it being any less fun or any more intimidating. By 'better' I mean more connected and comfortable to dance with.
    I often think there's too much fear of scaring off beginners in MJ by introducing anything even remotely tricky right from the start. The downside is that some things that are really important for dancing (like connection and frame) aren't really taught in beginners and then aren't properly added in later. I think this fear does a disservice to both the vast majority of dancers, beginner or otherwise and the quality of the teachers.

    For example, in an intermediate class last night, we did a blocking move that wasn't particularly hard and looks really nice. But that move needs both partners to have a reasonable frame to give it the right look and feel. I think I did that move with every woman in the class and less than a third could make it work well; the others collapsed into the block and the move lost all shape (I suspect the same proportion of guys never established a good block, for the same reason). The teacher spotted the problem and told the class how to correct it, but because the foundation wasn't there, very few in the class know what to do with it.

    I agree that dancing can be made better without a downside from the punter's perspective. It would demand a little more of the teacher (and, maybe, of the taxis). But I don't see that as a problem: all the teachers I know would be up to the challenge. Some of the taxis may find it a little bit of a challenge, but I expect that would only be a transitional problem; in less than a year, any new approach would bed in and taxis would be up to standard.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    (a recent thread that touched on this is to be found...)
    OK, thanks Straycat for the link. Have just read through most of this... Personally, I lean more towards what Gadget was saying on that thread...

    Anyway, back to this one! Consider the average beginner - someone who has never done any partner dance. Ever. Probably has limited experience on ANY dancerfloor (bopping in a local pub/club/disco). And is highly likely to have zero musical training.

    It is not all that uncommon for beginners to struggle to pick out the underlying beat of the music - forget bars and phases; I'm just talking about the basic thump thump thump...

    The newbie has to learn, amongst lots of other stuff, their surroundings, format, rotation, unfamilair people and ways to move the body. And try to perform these strange movments to regular timing (IE the beat of the music). And then they realize that they are expected to actually remember these strange movement...!

    The learning curve for most beginners is really steep and shouldn't be underestimated. So it is, and should be, kept nice and simple to give them a easy step into the world of partner dance. Give them an easy foundation that can then be built on. Let's face it - we want them to enjoy themselves! If they don't then they probably won't come back... Walk first, run when you're ready...

    I agree that certain core technicalities can not be ignored, like connection, lead/follow, basic timing (the beat), even spining, etc. And are all given, in my experience, reasonable amounts of input during the beginner lessons/warm up.

    Certainly Ceroc seem to have it pretty well sussed.

    In theme with the actual subject of this thread - I wouldn't change much of what Ceroc already do. But I'd drop the side to side like a bad smell..!!!

    Someone mentioned dropping the push spin (Arm Jive and 1st Move) as they are hardly ever used in freestyle... Weeell, yeees, but they do teach important aspect of lead/follow tension IMO.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    First - we're talking beginners' moves - what you find dull will still be challenging for most beginners.
    This is probably true...
    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Nor am I suggesting you restrict the dance to the basic framework taught to beginners.
    ...and this.

    But is it better to:
    • have a 4-beat timing for all moves to beginners and then introduce different timings later, which could come as a big shift when you've ingrained a 4-beat timing, or
    • teach more varied timings from day 1, so beginners start dealing with them from the start?
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    But is it better to:
    • have a 4-beat timing for all moves to beginners and then introduce different timings later, which could come as a big shift when you've ingrained a 4-beat timing, or
    • teach more varied timings from day 1, so beginners start dealing with them from the start?
    The latter - no real question about it. Always teach the foundation first, before you teach variations. That approach is pretty much axiomatic when trying to develop skills. MJ music is built from four count patterns, so that makes sense as the foundation for the dance as well.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The latter - no real question about it. Always teach the foundation first, before you teach variations. That approach is pretty much axiomatic when trying to develop skills. MJ music is built from four count patterns, so that makes sense as the foundation for the dance as well.
    Did you mean to say "the latter" then? You seem to be arguing for the first option as the better approach.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Did you mean to say "the latter" then? You seem to be arguing for the first option as the better approach.
    Yes. No. I've confused myself, several times. My brain is full today, so I can take no responsibility for its behaviour.

    What I meant was it's more important to teach the foundation first. In this case, that means that teaching timing variations in the beginners classes is very, very low priority.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    This is probably true...
    ...and this.

    But is it better to:
    • have a 4-beat timing for all moves to beginners and then introduce different timings later, which could come as a big shift when you've ingrained a 4-beat timing, or
    • teach more varied timings from day 1, so beginners start dealing with them from the start?
    Two points:

    1. Generally I believe that if you master a skill it is easier to vary it, not harder. So I don’t really buy the ‘big shift’ argument – the sooner people feel confident with one thing they will be happy to tackle the next.

    2. You can't cover everything in one class. You have to make tough choices about what you miss out. The 'have people deal with it from the start' argument could also be applied to footwork variations, or double time movements. But I’m not trying to get beginners to deal with stuff, I’m trying to get them to dance, and to enjoy it!

    If I taught moves with varying timings I would have to cut back on time spent teaching something else. I want to get people enjoying dancing as quickly as possible. For that they need a minimum number of moves and a rudimentary connection. Variations are only important to the fun factor when what you can already do feels boring.

    Also, by keeping all the timings the same I take advantage of rhythmic muscle memory. You reach that point where the body ‘knows’ when to do something, leaving the mind free to concentrate on something else, like connection, or for guys, the next move.

    Finally, by keeping the same basic timing you can ingrain a feel for the 4 beat structure of music which many modern jivers fail to develop.

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