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Thread: Reworking the Beginner Moves

  1. #21
    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Frame and posture
    1. Lead and follow - mostly connection and tension for beginners
    2. Turning and spinning (especially for follows, but important for both)
    3. Musicality - at the beginner stage, this is more important for guys and is mostly about finding the beat
    4. Confidence to dance
    In my opinion, these - along with having fun - should be the main goals of a series of beginner classes.
    I'd also give a little more time for freestyle in the class. There are usually a bunch of reasonably good dancers in the beginners classes here. By giving them a little more time to dance in the class, the less experienced people would learn a lot more. So instead of moving the class on as soon as you've finished the move you're covering, keep the music on a little longer and expect people to keep dancing.
    I agree with much of what you're suggesting, but then I'm someone who wants to be a good technical dancer as well as enjoying it. Getting good partner dance technique correct is what I spent 2 years of salsa learning in the classes I went to - it meant fewer people got to the good intermediate/advanced level, but those who did were much strong dancers in leading & following. However it did put a lot of people off (who went and joined a local class which happened in a pub - fun, but people couldn't pick up the moves quickly as they didn't teach the basics). This is probably why ceroc don't teach more of this important aspect - it would put too many people off. Shame, as there's a lot of people who do want this as well and a lot of intermediate dancers who still need to learn these things but don't think they do/have no opportunity to do so.

    As for spending more time dancing in beginners classes, I think it would potentially mean extending the class too long and dropping from 3 to 2 moves would put people off. In theory, if the teaching in class has been good, and beginners pick up the moves quickly, then the beginners practise sessions afterwards are meant to give people exactly that - the chance to repeat the moves and dance afterwards to give them as much chance to practise on their own as possible. Doesn't always work like that of course, but if there's time/quite proficient beginners, sometimes we do let them freestyle mixing up the moves in their own way. Oh, and a bit of spinning practise/learning the drill does happen when people specifically ask.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    However it did put a lot of people off (who went and joined a local class which happened in a pub - fun, but people couldn't pick up the moves quickly as they didn't teach the basics).
    I find it frustrating how many "intermediate" dancers can't do some very basic stuff in terms of partner dancing. It is a fine line to walk; I wonder how many people who would be put off by a slightly more challenging beginners class would actually become regular attendees at the class night? I suspect the number would be low.

    I'm not suggesting that these things are taught directly in any major way, just that the moves selected in the classes are designed to help the people in the class develop the underlying skills. There would be some mention of them - particularly frame and tension - but this happens already. I don't see it as a huge change.

    I'd pick one or two themes each week and select moves that teach the class themes. If you cover two of the above themes a week, in six weeks, you'd be in a class that works on each one two or three times. I'd also extend this approach to the intermediate class, where the moves selected are designed to learn specific basic skills for dancing - ideally extending the themes taught in the beginners class (some teachers already do this).

    The key idea is to stop teaching moves and start teaching dancing. And to do so in a progressive manner, so people develop underlying skills that will improve their dancing.
    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    As for spending more time dancing in beginners classes, I think it would potentially mean extending the class too long and dropping from 3 to 2 moves would put people off.
    Not if well managed. At most of the classes I go to, at least half the people in the beginners class are "intermediate" dancers. In the review class, you normally have 2-3 taxi dancers and a raft of beginners. I guess the point of extending the dancing in the classes is to give people more opportunity to practice. Given we used to do four moves in the same length class, I don't see that it would force the number of moves to be reduced. Some of them would be taught less often, but in many cases, this is probably a good thing.

    Drills: I'm suggesting these should be before every class, not just beginners. The progression you make practising basic skills every week (or more) is phenomenal.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    I think Ceroc, at least around my way, have got the beginner classes pretty close to right. I don't know what they could do better, except measure and test.

    The other desirable aspects of dancing for real dancers I think may be better taught in workshops, where the customers can self-selct themselves for the task.

  4. #24
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I wonder how many people who would be put off by a slightly more challenging beginners class would actually become regular attendees at the class night? I suspect the number would be low.
    Given how hard I found it starting out, I suspect I'd be in that number. So would the friend I started out with. Although I think I had a slower learning curve than most.

    As for the "non-move" suggestions, maybe they would be better in another thread. If it can avoid being a flamefest, I think it would be interesting to have a "NZ v.s. Aus v.s. UK teaching methods" discussion.

    In an attempt to prevent World War III, I think I must admit that I don't think it can avoid being a flamefest, but still...

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff332
    Not on the list, but should be banned from all forms of dance, is the hallelujah. It just looks naff. Always. Replace it by teach how to do a hand change in a normal or travelling return.
    Well, if it's good enough for Jordan it's good enough for me.....

    Seriously, that's definitely a move that relies on having a good sense of timing, musicality and style to look good. On the right person it can and does though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmylou25
    However it did put a lot of people off (who went and joined a local class which happened in a pub - fun, but people couldn't pick up the moves quickly as they didn't teach the basics). This is probably why ceroc don't teach more of this important aspect - it would put too many people off. Shame, as there's a lot of people who do want this as well and a lot of intermediate dancers who still need to learn these things but don't think they do/have no opportunity to do so.
    I think this comes down to the teachers personality more than the dance technique though. People usually come back because they enjoy it, not just because it’s easy. I’ve seen classes with really good technical teaching that were a laugh a minute, and classes that were easier due to a lack of technical stuff which were as dull as dishwater.

    Of course the two are related, but I’m convinced the equation isn’t quite as simple as:
    Easier + More fun = Greater retention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmylou
    As for spending more time dancing in beginners classes, I think it would potentially mean extending the class too long and dropping from 3 to 2 moves would put people off.
    It would mean making sure your teachers knew enough about this stuff to teach it themselves. It takes very little time (certainly not 15 minutes of just talking) to explain the sort of technical details Geoff is talking about, and your class is much more likely to get it if they see you practicing what you preach. Conversely, a poor teacher isn’t going to be able to teach this stuff well no matter how much time you give them.

    I learned MJ in the same studio as Geoff (although I don’t think I’ve actually met him), and generally speaking I agree with him. At the Lorne Street studio in Auckland, the long-standing beginners teacher has been teaching all these things, with spinning drills AND doing four (sometimes even five!) moves in a beginners class. I think all that is unusual, but certainly possible. I wouldn’t consider him some sort of super-teacher either, although our classes are an hour in length. I’m happy to say that I consider our intermediate dancers to be very strong because of that, and no other beginners teacher matches the numbers he got either no matter how much less material they tried to put forward.

    Partly this is the “culture” of MJ though. It’s easier to accept stuff like that if you don’t know any differently. If MJ in the UK were to change into what I’ve just described above overnight it’d be disastrous, because it’d no longer be meeting the punters expectations and change is a bad thing for most people.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    As for the "non-move" suggestions, maybe they would be better in another thread. If it can avoid being a flamefest, I think it would be interesting to have a "NZ v.s. Aus v.s. UK teaching methods" discussion.
    The problem is that there’s quite a bit of variety even within the same city. You see it in London, and nowhere else in the world is any different in that regard.

    Also (and unfortunately from my point of view) it looks like things are changing in my area and I expect we will be much more similar to the UK within a couple of years. We’ve had a change of ownership AND some of the key personalities here have taken a step back from teaching beginners in the last year which has had a noticeable impact on the ability of the intermediates coming though. I’m expecting some format changes to be made as well which will have an effect, although I don’t know what yet.

    That doesn’t change my opinion of what works well, but it might be a “little” misleading to paint all of NZ with the same brush as I paint Central Auckland. I’m still quite happy to make some generalizations between the countries though, especially as quite a bit of the opinion I’ve seen of antipodean MJ on this forum is wildly inaccurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    In an attempt to prevent World War III, I think I must admit that I don't think it can avoid being a flamefest, but still...
    Indeed….. which is why I usually just keep my mouth shut now.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    A couple of points

    1) Fun can't be the only objective. If people turn up and have a ball (no pun intended ) playing a game of indoor soccer, the night has been a dismal failure as a dance class! But, if the objective is fun, that does take into account the other things as well, such as technique, music, manners etc, so I agree that its a good overall goal.

    2) In terms of things being easy, I don't think that can be taken to the extreme either. As a beginner, I know that when I'm watching the moves being demonstrated, they look very complex. So there's a sense of achievement when you finish the class and can do them! This would be lost if all the moves are just super basic. But again, if not taken to the extreme, it's a good attitude towards beginners moves- after all, if people can't do the moves they aren't going to come back!

    3)
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I’m still quite happy to make some generalizations between the countries though, especially as quite a bit of the opinion I’ve seen of antipodean MJ on this forum is wildly inaccurate.

    Indeed….. which is why I usually just keep my mouth shut now.
    Would you please make an exception this time? I'd be really interested to hear what you have to say. We can always "take it outside" if the discussion gets nasty!

    4) In terms of specific moves, I think more variations of the side-to-side should be taught! Anyone got any suggestions?

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Neu Wien View Post
    A couple of points

    1) Fun can't be the only objective. If people turn up and have a ball (no pun intended ) playing a game of indoor soccer, the night has been a dismal failure as a dance class!
    Take some freestyle nights, erect a goal each end, add a ball ...
    Hmmm...

    The best teacher, in terms of retention rates, praised one of the worst, in terms of retention rates, as being most like her in teaching style. The chief difference between them, in my view, was the fun content. In my view if you can get a nervous first timer laughing along with the class, that is a major sttepping stone to them coming back. You can't teach them anything if they do not come back.

    2) In terms of things being easy, I don't think that can be taken to the extreme either.
    My wife was a primary and special needs teacher. At first it appalled me to see a big "Well done" on written work full of spelling and grammatical errors, letter reversals etc. She explained to me, and I eventually accepted, that the most important thing was to get the children to love reading and writing and lessons in general. You cannot love reading without learning to spell, and you cannot love writing without wanting to be good at it.

    As a beginner, I know that when I'm watching the moves being demonstrated, they look very complex. So there's a sense of achievement when you finish the class and can do them!
    Hence the corny "Well done, give yourselves a clap."

    This would be lost if all the moves are just super basic.
    Not necessarily, "You did that " (In-and-out, Arm Jive) "like a formation team"

    But again, if not taken to the extreme, it's a good attitude towards beginners moves- after all, if people can't do the moves they aren't going to come back!
    You don't know me very well, do you? Girls, music, fun, how could you have kept me away?

    ... In terms of specific moves, I think more variations of the side-to-side should be taught! Anyone got any suggestions?
    Attend a Michaella class. (I wish someone would video these and distribute the highlights.)

    When I was learning I used to circulate around Ceroc, Leroc and Le Jive and other beginner classes. That way I was able to collect a wider range of moves more quickly that I could use in freestyle.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    You don't know me very well, do you? Girls, music, fun, how could you have kept me away?
    haha, true!

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Attend a Michaella class. (I wish someone would video these and distribute the highlights.)
    Where does she teach? If its not in Sydney I may have a little problem...

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    When I was learning I used to circulate around Ceroc, Leroc and Le Jive and other beginner classes. That way I was able to collect a wider range of moves more quickly that I could use in freestyle.
    Did you find that dancers could follow the moves from other companies? Today I was dancing with someone who's been doing Ceroc for about a year, I tried to lead a basic side to side and she got confused and says she's never done it before! My leading's probably just not very strong though.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Neu Wien View Post
    Where does she teach? If its not in Sydney I may have a little problem...
    Which is why I added the wish for videos.


    Did you find that dancers could follow the moves from other companies?
    Yes. My first question about a new move is "Do I want to lead this", the second is "Can I lead it?"

    Today I was dancing with someone who's been doing Ceroc for about a year, I tried to lead a basic side to side and she got confused and says she's never done it before! My leading's probably just not very strong though.
    It is technique, not strength. Pull your hand down towards your pocket as you turn side on, and start raising it as soon as she is heading in the right direction.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Someone here mentioned that they didn't like the name "The First Move". I tend to agree as it can be an easy cause for confusion when it isn't the actual 1st move in a routine... Means a (small) amount of words wasted explaining that it is just the silly name of the move... This move and all the many, many variants are so ingrained in MJ dancers that changing the name would be interesting to say the least..!

    So, interesting challenged - "what would you rename the 1st move to?!"

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by todd View Post
    Someone here mentioned that they didn't like the name "The First Move". I tend to agree as it can be an easy cause for confusion when it isn't the actual 1st move in a routine... Means a (small) amount of words wasted explaining that it is just the silly name of the move... This move and all the many, many variants are so ingrained in MJ dancers that changing the name would be interesting to say the least..!

    So, interesting challenged - "what would you rename the 1st move to?!"
    I renamed the first move (with no return) to 2 separate patterns
    Basic (to closed) - 4 beat pattern
    Basic tuck (from closed) - 4 beat pattern

    I renamed the Travelling Return to
    Underarm Turn - 4 beat pattern

    I teach it differently than standard MJ...
    Last edited by Alan Doyle; 21st-July-2009 at 04:33 PM.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I renamed the first move (with no return) to 2 separate patterns
    Basic (to closed) - 4 beat pattern
    Basic tuck (from closed) - 4 beat pattern
    ...
    I teach it differently than standard MJ...
    That is very different.
    Given your other posts, I'm assuming you are counting musical beats. So you are teaching a first move (with no return) in 8 beats, whereas everyone else would teach it in 12 beats (ie 6 counts).

    Or do you do something else in closed position in between your two separate patterns?

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    That is very different.
    Given your other posts, I'm assuming you are counting musical beats. So you are teaching a first move (with no return) in 8 beats, whereas everyone else would teach it in 12 beats (ie 6 counts).

    Or do you do something else in closed position in between your two separate patterns?
    Yes, I'm counting beats of music. Yes, I teach a first move (with no return) in 8-beats

    A first move (with no return) is a combination of two 4-beat patterns. All modern jive patterns I currently teach are 4-beat patterns (or combinations of 4-beat patterns) - you step on every beat

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    A first move (with no return) is a combination of two 4-beat patterns.
    Do you mind at some point breaking down these two 4-beat patterns in more detail? I still can't quite picture it in my mind.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    Do you mind at some point breaking down these two 4-beat patterns in more detail? I still can't quite picture it in my mind.
    Man's Footwork

    Basic (to Closed)
    Start Anchored in 3rd Dance Position
    &a1) Rock (Straight) Back on 1 (Left Foot)
    &a2) (Straight) Forward on 2 (Right Root)
    &a3) Together (in 3rd) on 3 (Left Foot)
    &a4) Anchor (in 3rd) on 4 (Right Foot)

    Basic Tuck (From Closed)
    Start Anchored in 3rd Dance Position
    &a1) Rock (Straight) Forward on 1 (Left Foot)
    &a2) (Straight) Back on 2 (Right Foot)
    &a3) Together (in 3rd) on 3 (Left Foot)
    &a4) Anchor (in 3rd) on 4 (Right Foot)

    Ladies Footwork

    Basic (to Closed)
    Start in 3rd Dance Position
    &a1) Rock (Straight) Back on 1 (Right Foot)
    &a2) Forward (in Place) on 2 (left foot)
    &a3) Forward on 3 (Right Foot) (lady turns left before she turns right)
    &a) 1/2 Turn (Pivot) clockwise
    4) Anchor (in 3rd) on 4 (Left Foot)

    Basic Tuck (From Closed)
    Start off in 3rd Dance Position
    &a1) Rock (Straight) Back on 1 (Right Foot)
    &a2) Forward (in Place) on 2 (Left Foot)
    &a3) Straight Forward on 3 (Right Foot) (lady turns left before she turns right)
    &a) 1/2 Turn (Pivot) clockwise
    4) Anchor (in 3rd) on 4 (Left Foot)

    In every pattern
    Beat 1) Rock
    Beat 2) Replace
    Beat 3) The only beat in every pattern you need to worry about teaching is beat 3, which makes it easier to learn and teach.
    Beat 4) Anchor
    Last edited by Alan Doyle; 22nd-July-2009 at 12:24 AM.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    I would extend the beginner lesson to an hour, introduce some footwork from the beginning, give away free icecreams, and probably lose a lot of money….

    All the moves except the slidebreak and winder would be in multiples of 4 musical beats, with one step per beat, men on their left on the down beat and women on the right.

    The travelling return and man spins (renamed breakthu) would probably be taught almost every class, and then padded with one or two harder moves, out of the following:

    Basket
    T-pot
    Yo yo
    First move
    Neck break (sweet heart)
    Sway
    Slide break
    Octopus (loopthru)
    Winder
    Manhattan

    Men would be men. Women would be women. Everyone else would have their own row and special t-shirt. People wouldn’t talk much whilst the teacher is talking, but the teacher would talk less and there would be more dancing. ‘Beginners’ would be renamed ‘pre-intermediates’ or something equally bewilderingly modern and bland. You would have to concentrate to tell if I was being serious or not. And you would have to be serious for me to concentrate.

    My basic belief is that you can get people to dance better without it being any less fun or any more intimidating. By 'better' I mean more connected and comfortable to dance with.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    All modern jive patterns I currently teach are 4-beat patterns (or combinations of 4-beat patterns) - you step on every beat
    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    All the moves except the slidebreak and winder would be in multiples of 4 musical beats
    This sounds terribly dull.

    Half of my fun in MJ is trying to hit musical phrases with moves of variable length. If everything was a multiple of 4 beats, then you'd automatically hit every break on a "1" (or at least be doing a "rock" on every "1" in Alan's case) and automatically miss every other break.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    {snip}
    If you are teaching 4-count hustle, why are you calling it modern jive?

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    If you are teaching 4-count hustle, why are you calling it modern jive?
    4-Count Hustle & Modern Jive share the same basic patterns

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    This sounds terribly dull.

    Half of my fun in MJ is trying to hit musical phrases with moves of variable length. If everything was a multiple of 4 beats, then you'd automatically hit every break on a "1" (or at least be doing a "rock" on every "1" in Alan's case) and automatically miss every other break.
    First - we're talking beginners' moves - what you find dull will still be challenging for most beginners.

    Second - as virtually all music used for MJ employs phrases which are multiples of four beats in length, so sticking to four beat moves gives people a lot of flexibility.

    Third - using four count moves doesn't limit one to hitting breaks on 1 - in fact, it makes it easy to hit them on 1, 4, 5 and 8. Not that I'd worry about this in a beginners' class.

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