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Thread: Reworking the Beginner Moves

  1. #1
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Reworking the Beginner Moves

    So, if you were teaching Modern Jive, which would be your beginner moves?

    What would you get rid of? What would you change? What would you add?

    I appreciate most people won't want to do a long list, but even if you just want to talk about one move, that would be great too. If it's just styling or principles you'd like to see changed, that's OK too (but can we not have semi-circle or 'which foot' wars?).

    To start the ball rolling, here's a few thoughts of the top of my head:

    I'd add "First move with an inside turn" as a variation: I think it's a nice move, and I like the idea of teaching two versions of the first move fairly early.

    I'd also add the Travelling Return - it's hardly "a move", but I think it's actually one of the most important ones in MJ.

    I'd change the in-and-out to get rid of the circles, so you have a variation that concentrates on the actual connection.

    I'd get rid of the shoulder drop - I can't see how anyone will be doing it with lead/follow at beginner level.

    I'd like to change/get-rid-off the catapult, but I'm not sure what I'd replace it with. As it stands, it fills a purpose, but it looks horrible - and because people learn it early, it tends to stay as "the move you fall back on when you're sending the woman behind you", so even pretty good dancers do it (when it still looks horrible).

    For reference, I'm taking the moves from http://www.cerocgroove.co.uk/ceroc_beginners_moves.tpl - I'm not actually terribly current on what the beginners moves are these days

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    I would get rid of the moves that most deter beginners and test a variety of alternatives to those.
    Last edited by bigdjiver; 14th-July-2009 at 05:58 PM.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    A couple of years ago, if you'd asked me this question, I'd have nominated a whole lot of moves for ejection from the beginners' class. Especially the arm jive, catapult and side-to-side.

    Now though I see that while these moves on their own may be "horrible", they can teach you useful technique and movements which can then be used in more developed dancing.

    So, I'm currently at the stage where I think most beginners' moves are maybe just about right.

    I would though change things a bit to encourage a more slotted, smoother style of dancing, but perhaps that's just personal preference.

    As for your suggestions...

    I think the travelling return is often taught to beginners, as is "changing places", but they aren't always counted as moves.

    I agree the "in and out" is an important learning tool to teach connection. I've never seen it taught with silly circles.

    The shoulder drop I found very difficult to learn, but it acts as a good test for the leader to see how well he is leading/his follower is following by adding in extra "to the side" bits.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Nice thread David, I vote:

    Add:

    A couple of hand cheat tips. So much emphasis is placed on finishing a move on the correct hand to lead your next move. Beginners can end up in Yo-Yo Groundhog Day! We all know that you can easily switch hands during a dance by simply switching them over (maybe during a Return). Why not take some pressure off of the already over crammed minds of new leads by giving them a cheat or two that they will end up doing at a later date probably anyhow?

    Get Rid Of:
    If you are starting from scratch and want to teach a lead-follow dance seriously, then I would remove the semi-circle which is not helpful and only serves to transmit a confused lead to the follow. Bear in mind that no matter what move you learn first as a newbie, you learn to disrupt the lead with a semi-circle first!

    Change:
    The Law of Three. When you learn a move with repetition (e.g, Octopus, Side-to-Side..) you are always taught to do three iterations. Often this is supplemented by a comment that you can do as many or as few as you like. But this isn't really practiced, it's more of a token nod in the direction of musicality. In my view fixed repetition aids back leading and makes for lazy leads.

    That's my starter for 10

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    We dont teach an arm jive, instead we teach a basic in out (like a WCS sugar Push) and an in-out changing places.

    We also teach how to start the dance in closed hold in the beginners class. No semi C either, Push and back.

    We have set weeks for beginners moves too. Makes it easier for beginners and to teach

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    Registered User Nessiemonster's Avatar
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Personally, I'd get rid of push spins. As a follow I hate them as they are rarely done well (and in my experience the best leaders don't use them at all), and have been known to cause me injury when done too hard.

    On the occasions that I lead I don't use them due to my experiences as a follow.

    I realise they provide a good means of changing hands, but as has already been mentioned on this thread, there are other methods of doing that available.

  7. #7
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessiemonster View Post
    Personally, I'd get rid of push spins. As a follow I hate them as they are rarely done well (and in my experience the best leaders don't use them at all), and have been known to cause me injury when done too hard.
    Personally, I agree. In fact, I'm not that keen on any kind of free spin - I don't like the break of connection. I don't think getting rid of all free spins is sensible, but I certainly think there are far too many such moves in the standard beginner move set.

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Personally, I agree. In fact, I'm not that keen on any kind of free spin - I don't like the break of connection. I don't think getting rid of all free spins is sensible, but I certainly think there are far too many such moves in the standard beginner move set.
    The beginners moves are a bit different in NZ. We don’t have the push spin or the shoulder drop here for instance, but for what it’s worth I’d drop both of those if I could. I think they look naff, the lead for the push spin isn’t very biomechanically sound and the shoulder drop is too hard to learn to actually lead or follow without a good connection already.

    I’d keep freespins though. In my experience any connection issues aren’t really caused by the spin so much as the “catch” at the end of it. We’re taught to end these with a hook grab were you basically aim for the followers forearm and let your hand slide into theirs. It makes the recovery considerably easier and all the follower needs to know is to leave her hand facing outwards in free spins. Actually catching each others hands is generally too hard to do well.

    I like catapults too, although I’d teach them differently. They look much nicer if the follower is bought directly forward and fully barriered across her torso before spinning rather than slowly looped though a turn over a much longer time (usually with some flailing elbows from both dancers). Plus, there are a lot of cool variations you can put into your intermediate classes if your punters can do this reasonably well.

    I’d remove change the stilted part of the first move where both people are standing side-by-side before the lady get’s pushed out. Practically nobody who makes that move look good actually dances it that way, and it looks even worse going through that stage on the way out of the move as well. I like the idea of the inside turn variation though as it’s a favorite of mine as well.

    In NZ neck breaks of various types are taught to beginners with signals, which are totally unnecessary and look odd as well. I’d ditch them as soon as I could.

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    In NZ neck breaks of various types are taught to beginners with signals, which are totally unnecessary and look odd as well. I’d ditch them as soon as I could.

    In fact, ditch signals altogether and force the teachers to teach people to lead and follow without the need for props. Now there's an odd concept

    I remember a friendly follow saying to me right near the start of my dancing life "if you want to lead something in freestyle, lead it. If you need to wave at me before you start then it needs more classroom work first". Great advice!!

  10. #10
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I’d keep freespins though. In my experience any connection issues aren’t really caused by the spin so much as the “catch” at the end of it.
    I don't think I'm talking about 'connection issues' in the way you mean. I don't have a problem with catching the hand (unless I've spun as the same time, which I'm a bit sucky at), but I just don't like the fact that you spend time without a physical connection. (I'm getting insecure in my old age - I need someone to hold me...)

    I’d remove change the stilted part of the first move where both people are standing side-by-side before the lady get’s pushed out. Practically nobody who makes that move look good actually dances it that way
    Good point; I confess I don't know the 'official' moves well enough to even realise that was still in there. (The way I do a first move is influenced a lot by the WCS whip).

    In NZ neck breaks of various types are taught to beginners with signals, which are totally unnecessary and look odd as well. I’d ditch them as soon as I could.
    Neck breaks here are intermediate, used to be with a signal but not sure if they are still. When I do a neck break, it's pretty much the same as a sway, only with the arm ending up higher - which (I think) makes a signal not only unnecessary but also near-impossible!

    That variation is actually a move I use a lot, so I'd be pretty happy moving it into the core set of beginner moves.

  11. #11
    Registered User Danny's Avatar
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    I agree with NZ Monkey about the Shoulder Drop, its not easily leadable with a beginner who doesn't know it and it does look a bit rubbish. Also probably the First Move Pushspin as its such a minor and obvious variation to the First Move, I'd also rename the First Move something less stupid.

    Added moves...mine would be mainly follow-based. I just don't feel enough emphasis is given to the follow in Ceroc, more on essential technique for Follows. Leads get all the attention: (here's a move, here's another move for you, and here's another).
    Oh and throw in some floor etiquette too. So maybe have everybody doing a simple steppy move around the room in different directions and leads have to look around to make sure they and their partners don't bump into anybody else while they do it.

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    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    I would add the Wurlitzer to the list of beginner moves, in order to teach follows a bit of frame.

    I would get ride of the arm-jive push spin, I don't see the benefit of that when you've already got armjive nelson - a normal spin, plus the 1st move push spin.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post

    In fact, ditch signals altogether and force the teachers to teach people to lead and follow without the need for props. Now there's an odd concept
    <puts asbestos suit on>

    I know it's a common theme on here amongst intermediate and advanced dancers that signals are evil, and maybe they are; but we're talking about beginners here, not to mention beginners who may never be especially good dancers.
    MJ's biggest advantage, IMO, is it's ability to get complete non-dancers dancing quickly and if using signals helps that, then I say keep the signals.
    By all means, teach that they are evil in your later classes, but don't start making it harder for beginners just because you don't need it any more.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    I know it's a common theme on here amongst intermediate and advanced dancers that signals are evil, and maybe they are; but we're talking about beginners here, not to mention beginners who may never be especially good dancers.

    MJ's biggest advantage, IMO, is it's ability to get complete non-dancers dancing quickly and if using signals helps that, then I say keep the signals.
    By all means, teach that they are evil in your later classes, but don't start making it harder for beginners just because you don't need it any more.
    Question: what signals do you have in mind?

    The two 'obvious' ones that I can think of (bear in mind I haven't done a class for 5 years, so I might be missing others):

    The 'hand out to the side' on the ManSpin: I don't see a problem with this, but instead of calling it a signal, I'd emphasise that it's actually preparation for the spin. You can then point out to the ladies that it's a good way of telling what he's about to do next. Note: IMHO, this isn't just "avoiding calling it a signal, but it's still a signal" - I think people will handle the mechanics better if it's done this way, rather than "stick your arm out - it's a signal".

    The "How!" signal for the neck break: For this, I'd say that the 'core' neckbreak move should be the R-R variation I mentioned before. Because you physically put the ladies hand where it needs to go, you don't need any kind of signal. Once you're used to that, it's much easier to teach the standard version without needing a signal.

    On the other hand - I do take your point. I found signals very useful when I was just starting out as an intermediate. But I'm not sure how much that's because some of the moves weren't terribly well designed.

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    On the other hand - I do take your point. I found signals very useful when I was just starting out as an intermediate. But I'm not sure how much that's because some of the moves weren't terribly well designed.
    To add something else to this little snippet....[pause while NZ Monkey finds something of a reasonable size to hide behind].... those signals also make it a lot easier to dance with someone who can't lead or follow at all. That's true not only if you're a beginner yourself but also if you're dancing with one.

    My experience though is that in the case of neck break I've not had any trouble leading them without signal on even very.....errrrrr.... stubborn followers. Thus I consider them easy enough to manage without signal for everyone, considering that I have on occasion struggled leading returns on those same ladies.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    OK, for my tupenceworth:

    Freespins - personally I wobble all over the place - If my spin behaves, then my coordination, muscle memory or connection goes out the window....so I'd rather sacrifice a freespin or two..

    Catapult - I would love a few escapes to this being taught in class, so that if I don't feel like catapulting 14 times in one track, I could play around with it without being frowned at or being given a very puzzled / startled glare from my leader.

    I'd alter the signal for moves like the pretzel, which have waist height signals (I'm not sure how though... Any suggestions?) I hardly ever see signals at waist height, I'm looking at my leaders face, not his waist!

    WT

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    I don't think the catapult looks any more horrible when danced by beginners than any of the other beginner's moves.

    First move with inside turn I am less sure about. When I lead this it usually leaves most MJ followers 'wrongfooted' for coming into the next move seamlessly.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    I'd get rid of the slo(w) comb. I hate it whether I'm following or leading. A standard comb is fine (although I prefer a left hand comb), but the slow version causes nightmares in class anyway - how many wiggles/steps/shoves etc - as every teacher seems to do something different. And in freestyle I find that most of the men who do the move have the sweatiest neck going and don't realise it (or do and are just oblivious to how horrible it is).

    I like the idea of having the first neckbreak taught like a high arm sway. It flows nicely, and gets the follow to understand the way the shape of a neckbreak works before moving on to versions turning them out in different directions.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    I think about this a little differently. For me, the starting point is what do you want a beginner to learn. For me, the list is relatively short.
    1. Frame and posture
    2. Lead and follow - mostly connection and tension for beginners
    3. Turning and spinning (especially for follows, but important for both)
    4. Musicality - at the beginner stage, this is more important for guys and is mostly about finding the beat
    5. Confidence to dance
    In my opinion, these - along with having fun - should be the main goals of a series of beginner classes.

    For both musicality and spinning, I think the best bet is to use a drill before the class. While not, technically a beginner's move, I think it's really important. It also does a good job of loosening people up. This would replace the stepping side to side to find the beat, which I find particularly unhelpful. Including a travelling return and ceroc spin are useful for that as well.

    For frame and posture, adding a closed mambo to beginners moves is a really good idea; this was taught as a beginners move in NZ, not sure why it's not included here. It also helps with connection and lead. This move looks and feels so much better if you both have a strong frame and hold yourselves well. Another moves that are good for frame are the first move, although I'd make it smoother and slotted by removing the pause with both partners side by side. The right-handed neckbreak is also pretty useful. I'd drop the arm-jive, if you need to make room.

    For lead and follow, the most important thing is variation. If all the beginners moves are taught the same way, then it's more likely that followers will anticipate moves rather than allowing them to be lead. It also means leads need to know how to lead sooner (that makes it harder I guess, but I don't have a problem with that). All you need to do at beginners level is have a few different entrances and exits from each move. But I would stop calling them different moves; they're really just variations. I might keep things like the swizzle as a move; but it's really a variant entrance or exit to a move.

    I'd add something like the sugar push from WCS. It's good for teaching lead and follow (requiring both tension and frame and the change of direction can catch people out). You can do$ it with either hand or use it for a hand change - all very useful for a beginner.

    Not on the list, but should be banned from all forms of dance, is the hallelujah. It just looks naff. Always. Replace it by teach how to do a hand change in a normal or travelling return.

    I'd also give a little more time for freestyle in the class. There are usually a bunch of reasonably good dancers in the beginners classes here. By giving them a little more time to dance in the class, the less experienced people would learn a lot more. So instead of moving the class on as soon as you've finished the move you're covering, keep the music on a little longer and expect people to keep dancing.

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    Re: Reworking the Beginner Moves

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I think about this a little differently. For me, the starting point is what do you want a beginner to learn. For me, the list is relatively short.
    1. Frame and posture
    2. Lead and follow - mostly connection and tension for beginners
    3. Turning and spinning (especially for follows, but important for both)
    4. Musicality - at the beginner stage, this is more important for guys and is mostly about finding the beat
    5. Confidence to dance
    In my opinion, these - along with having fun - should be the main goals of a series of beginner classes....
    My list is even shorter - Having fun. People will come back if they enjoy themselves. I would use the database to research which moves / methods deter beginners, and work from there.

    I have just quit a Lindy class that covered points 1 to 4 very well. In week 6, and 6 hours tuition, we moved on from learning a few steps and a turn to the Lindy eqivalent of First Move, Travelling return. I found their teaching of hand holds in the return too difficult to manage, the MJ way being ingrained. After six weeks I do not feel confident I could take a Lady onto the floor and do one Lindy move properly, and am quite prepared to accept that is all down to me.

    The views of dance teaching experts are based on those pupils that came back. I would favour market research on those that did not. At first counting, then perhaps analysing lessons. My first question would be "Does the class ever laugh?"

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