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Thread: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

  1. #101
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    The Roman's used lead pipe in Rome, causing the population to suffer, unknowingly, from lead poisoning.
    You only answered half the question...

  2. #102
    Registered User Feelingpink's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ...Oh, I see, so you want the Forum to adhere to your own ideal rather than the real World of feelings and frustrations then? That's not to say that I don't agree with you, but more to say that people deal with things in different ways and express themselves in different ways - that's what makes the World go round. You don't like it, but I think it's refreshing..
    Could this be the crux of the matter? The argument that we're all different, so anything goes & the world is horrid so we can be justified in reflecting this .... or could we all be a bit kinder and polite? I'd vote for the latter - and enforced politeness if necessary. Surely the world will go round without any help.
    Last edited by Feelingpink; 14th-July-2009 at 01:34 AM.

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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Is that aimed at yourself fletch? It should be. Only if YOU are posting what YOU are up to on here can 'someone' know every 'think' you do.
    If I understand your post right? eeerrr yes I think that's what I was saying it applies to me!

    I'm having a go at keeping my mouth shut, some times, that doesn't mean talking laughing about me while i; m stood there I won't 'do one'

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Fletch... do you believe that this post has helped the discussion, or in any way helped improve the tone of the forum, and helped make it in any way a friendlier, more welcoming place?

    Quite seriously (for a moment) - every often when I see a post of this nature, it takes me a small step closer to leaving the forum for good. Perhaps this is just me... but that is how it makes me feel.
    Do I belive ? I didn't give it a though to how it made others feel. Its the reasons i'v stoped posting or reading so much.

    You might do a list like mine with 'I don't post cos of 'fletch' attitude on hear, i'll have to live with it won't I

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I have no problem with how Fletch feels - that's up to her. I believe, however that it is quite possible to express such sentiments politely.

    I also believe that in doing so, she would make her point far more telling, and help to maintain a nicer environment here on the forum - a scenario in which, I believe, everyone wins.

    Good manners cost nothing,
    and benefit us all. IMHO.
    and I do have manners, but as a passionate person with a short fuse, some times I can loose my point when the red mist comes down.

    may be I should have said.

    1. I have experienced unwanted and unnecessary attention from an obsessed ex friend.

    2. I believe that some personal issues has meant a moderator IMO took advantage of there position on hear

    3. I have posted on hear in good faith and received comments that hurt so badly I now have to think long and hard before I post.

    how's that every one happy now?



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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    The Roman's used lead pipe in Rome, causing the population to suffer, unknowingly, from lead poisoning.

    In it's way the Roman plumbing contributed to the Fall of Rome...
    disputed:

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/...poisoning.html

  5. #105
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Hmmmm....


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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    FP has a point. However I think it's actually exaggerated on the web. I refuse to believe people are as "In your face" and aggressive in real life as they are ,here, on the forum.

    The problem is , there's a separation between the real life and forum personae. Some people's on-line persona tend to be more assertive and "in your face". I'm not immune from this "personality amplification" In real life I'm very quiet and un-assertive. sits at the back of the room and doesn't speak until he's spoken to, and would rather have an evening in with Twirly and a DVD than to go out and actually meet people.

    on the forum however, I have this "mask" to wear. I'm no longer Pete Little, I'm "The great Geek Beowulf!" I try to be as balanced and as honest as I can, I'm often silly if not downright stupid, I strive to be as mellow and as non confrontational as I can and when I do take a swipe at someone (and I do , occasionally) I usually do it with a wink and a nudge , partly serious, partly in jest because I know the person that posted the post that raised my hackles is posting from behind a mask of their very own.

    The problem lies in some of these on-line masked personae clash terribly and it's a cycle that seems never ending and self reinforcing. Lets take two utterly fictitious forumites.. lets call them .. oh "Ricky" and "the Deadly Sloth"

    Ricky posts something quite acceptable fact wise but perhaps in a slightly aggressive tone. for example

    "The Sky is blue and any one that says otherwise is a numpty!"

    the Deadly Sloth then immediately retaliates with an equally correct response but seemingly designed to one up Ricky's post and take up a counter-view.

    "aha! but the sky isn't blue! it only SEEMS to be blue due to light refracting though the atmosphere! Aha ! Touché!"

    then it starts..

    "so you're saying when I look at the sky I'm not seeing blue? surely all colour is to do with the scattering/reflection/absorption of light ? Next you'll be telling me rainbows aren't rainbow coloured.."

    round and round and round ever accelerating, each poster taking an opposing side to the other one and drawing more and more people into the argument.

    of course, this is a fictitious argument, any resemblance to forumites living, dead or undead is purely coincidental.

    The problem is not so much in what's being said but in the way it's said. Some forumites must be seen to take a contrary view to other forumites posts on the basis of either dance company affiliation, politics or just plain personal likes/dislikes.

    I'm ALL for free speech. I don't even mind heated debate but it's a very short journey from Animated Discussion to Heated debate to slanging match.

    of course we all need to find a happy medium here. we don't want to post on a forum where even the most innocuous post is responded by personal insult. Have a look on some YouTube comments or some unmoderated game forums (WoW for example) to see how bad it could get. But conversely we don't want a forum that's so overmoderated it's sterile. I've been on forums where any post that doesn't adhere to a rigidly defined format/structure is deleted. Where any any arguments (even polite ones) are squashed and posters on both sides give reprimand points. Where any thread that doesn't discuss an actual point or is classified as a "Pad fest" posting for the sake of posting are deleted (in this situation most of the threads in the fun and games, and the singletons sofa/playroom etc wouldn't exist) and every poster is so censored you get no real idea of their personality.

    I for one like reading the posts of Fletch, DS, Rocky, RobD, Straycat, CJ et al. They all at some point have something interesting to say. I could do without some of the perceived personal attacks that seem to go on though. Perhaps these are deliberate, sometimes accidental and more to do with tone of posting than anything else.

    I'm not suggesting either that everyone posts like me. I do try to be as middle of the road as possible.. although I'm so middle of the road sometimes I'm at risk of being road kill!

    Just as I know that when I finish this essay I'll go back to being a mild mannered quiet programmer in some London Office, I know the posters above will take off their masks and return to their real personalities too. I've never met any of you I didn't actually like (those of you I've actually met) I tend not to let forum personalities cloud my perception of their actual personalities. so can we all not just take a moment, before we press the post button to think "how does this sound?" and "can I make it less confrontational?"

    I'm not expecting miracles but you never know.

    Now if you excuse me I'm off to hug a tree do you have any idea how hard it is to find a tree in the middle of the road?

    be well, happy posting!

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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    ...In real life I'm very quiet and un-assertive. sits at the back of the room and doesn't speak until he's spoken to, and would rather have an evening in with Twirly and a DVD than to go out and actually meet people...
    As a geeky type myself, lacking social skills, I loved Doug Richards description of his geeky partner. "When he's feeling social he'll look at your shoes."

  8. #108
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    The problem is not so much in what's being said but in the way it's said.


    Couldn’t agree more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    So can we all not just take a moment, before we press the post button to think "how does this sound?" and "can I make it less confrontational?"
    This would be lovely. But I suspect that some of the people who make confrontational posts don’t even realise that they are. It takes a degree of self knowledge to be able to put yourself in someone else’s shoes and see how what you say might affect them. Some people simply don’t have that – or, if they do, don’t care how what they say affects other people.

    Now, hand over those rose-tinted specs before you crash into that tree you’re about to hug!

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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post


    Couldn’t agree more.



    This would be lovely. But I suspect that some of the people who make confrontational posts don’t even realise that they are. It takes a degree of self knowledge to be able to put yourself in someone else’s shoes and see how what you say might affect them. Some people simply don’t have that – or, if they do, don’t care how what they say affects other people.

    Now, hand over those rose-tinted specs before you crash into that tree you’re about to hug!

    Exactly you tree hugging Geekoid.

    (ooops, i didnt check before i posted did i!!)

    In all seriousness though (and Pete your lovely) isn't it fun sometimes to see a little row or a little disagreement. I love it. At the end of the day, most people take no notice and hug at the next dance venue anyway.
    I mean, i danced with Silver Fox last weekend, its taken me 5 years to forgive the spat we had on here but we did it. !!! LOL

  10. #110
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    The problem lies in some of these on-line masked personae clash terribly and it's a cycle that seems never ending and self reinforcing. Lets take two utterly fictitious forumites.. lets call them .. oh "Ricky" and "the Deadly Sloth"

    Ricky posts something quite acceptable fact wise but perhaps in a slightly aggressive tone. for example

    "The Sky is blue and any one that says otherwise is a numpty!"

    the Deadly Sloth then immediately retaliates with an equally correct response but seemingly designed to one up Ricky's post and take up a counter-view.

    "aha! but the sky isn't blue! it only SEEMS to be blue due to light refracting though the atmosphere! Aha ! Touché!"

    then it starts..

    "so you're saying when I look at the sky I'm not seeing blue? surely all colour is to do with the scattering/reflection/absorption of light ? Next you'll be telling me rainbows aren't rainbow coloured.."

    round and round and round ever accelerating, each poster taking an opposing side to the other one and drawing more and more people into the argument.

    of course, this is a fictitious argument, any resemblance to forumites living, dead or undead is purely coincidental.
    Beo.. you are my hero!

    This is exactly how I see it too! But you've managed to explain it so much more eloquently than me!

    I often read a post and then clasp my face, take a deep breath and raise my eyes to the sky, cos I can see the poster has written something informative, or valid but has also added something stupid or antagonistic and therefore left themsleves open, or even invited an antagonistic responce...

    .. the valid or informative point is now glossed over or lost completely and another stupid, childish battle begins and ruins what could have been a great discussion, YET AGAIN!

    These people might be clever, witty and sharp but at the same time they're also very inconsiderate to the majority of posters, as they make an atmosphere in which people are discouraged from joining in.

    Who wants to be part of a discussion, when its all about one-upmanship and getting one over the other person to score points?

    As for scoring points, I've said it before, I feel more like a playground assistant in here, than a moderator sometimes...... "Miss Miss.. he said something rude to me, can you tell him off" And my response to those kids are... if you don't like him, don't play with him!
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

  11. #111
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    Now if you excuse me I'm off to hug a tree do you have any idea how hard it is to find a tree in the middle of the road?
    Go and hug the Hollow Tree... now that was a thread I liked.

    I can take the heat in a heated debate, if a thread is outside I don't expect it to be all luvvy and fluffy - but some people seem to equate 'debate' with 'personal insults' and are unable to discuss a topic without attacking the other posters. They can't seperate out the subject from the people involved in the discussion - though maybe that is simply their tactic when they actually have no valid point to make, as a distraction. Whatever the reason, it pretty much ruins the discussion.
    Last edited by Lynn; 14th-July-2009 at 10:53 AM.

  12. #112
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    In all seriousness though isn't it fun sometimes to see a little row or a little disagreement. I love it. At the end of the day, most people take no notice and hug at the next dance venue anyway.
    I've nothing against argument or discussion. And agree most of the "spats" on the forum are forgotten as soon as they meet in Real life.

    but I'm not keen on argument just for argument's sake. There's a cartel of posters that have a lot of experience and knowledge to impart but in doing so they always seem to want to rubbish / personal attack others in a rival cartel.

    It's horse for courses of course, different strokes for different folks. I Personally don't like argument but I'm non confrontational (or at least I try to be) I've felt the sharp side of both Rocky and DS's tongues (not Literally of course) in the past but do I take it personally? of course I flipping well do... the hit men are on order and should be dispatching them any time soon

    There's nothing wrong with Argument, or liking argument (Trouble.. you're lovely too!) but IMHO there needs to be more consideration. And are things really that important?

    Team A says the semi circle is sacrosanct. Team B says it's pointless and should be stopped. I say.. "So what?" in the grand scheme of things does it really matter to me if they teach or don't teach the semi circle? in the end it's individual choice if you decide to use it or not. There seems to be an awful lot of energy applied to arguing over relatively insignificant points. Then Lory and co have to expend an equal ,if not greater, amount of energy moderating an ever snowballing thread of sniping attacks, personal insults and point scoring.

    Please, keep discussion flowing. This thread started about the lack of activity on the forum.. and look how busy this thread is! just goes to show if there's a topic we need to discuss then we'll get off our backsides and discuss it.

    Am not suggesting for one pico-second that you shouldn't post if you disagree with something. We live in a democracy we all have the right to say what's on our minds. but we must be able to look at the bigger picture and ask "how much does this benefit the community as a whole" and if the argument is consuming more energy than the discussion point merits is it not better just to say "well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one!" and let it rest?


    IMHO

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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    The problem is , there's a separation between the real life and forum personae. Some people's on-line persona tend to be more assertive and "in your face". I'm not immune from this "personality amplification" In real life I'm very quiet and un-assertive. sits at the back of the room and doesn't speak until he's spoken to, and would rather have an evening in with Twirly and a DVD than to go out and actually meet people.
    Totally agree. I always feel people who know me only from here are ultimately dissapointed when they meet me. Sure I can talk, if I get a chance to sit down and do so, but most environments you do meet people from the forum are loud and busy - and I'll avoid talking at all if possible. Also, what do you talk about ? Subject of conversation is difficult when you haven't actually met someone before. In real life, talking about the only thing you know you have in common...an online forum, is very very boring indeed . Thats why I love weekenders, you can get away for lunch and actually speak to people.
    I'd rather spend an evening with Twirly and a DVD too

    of course, this is a fictitious argument, any resemblance to forumites living, dead or undead is purely coincidental.
    It could be anybody

    I tend not to let forum personalities cloud my perception of their actual personalities. so can we all not just take a moment, before we press the post button to think "how does this sound?" and "can I make it less confrontational?"
    I actually think "can i make it more confrontational", but always to further the argument, hopefully to allow for others to come in with their own opinions. I post quickly these days, between other things, and do try to be dreadfully scathing This probably makes more more annoying and less funny than i used to be...but I'll get bored of this style after a while, just you wait Its all simply one big online experiment in human interaction, innit ?

  14. #114
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    What other forums do people use? Where people chit chat less and talk about dance more...?

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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    .. the another stupid, childish battle begins and ruins what could have been a great discussion, YET AGAIN!
    So how does one politely disprove of a post
    In a live discussion, you know you have dropped a clangor, by the stunned silence. I guess most people are very reluctant to give a negative rep
    May be we need a “slapped wrist” button

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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    What other forums do people use? Where people chit chat less and talk about dance more...?
    MODS! FRANKQZ! We caught one trying to escape! Stop him.

  17. #117
    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    ...There are posters on here who are allowed to bully others, and it is sickening to watch.
    ...
    Yes ... and in most other threads, I would be happy to let the ensuing slanging and counter slanging go on ad infintum ..... ( ... although achieving what????? I ask myself)

    All the posters (well, almost all) so far on this thread have been here a while and (I would like to think, but may be wrong) are capable of rising above the cheap shots from those without the wit to effectively and politely argue the points effectively.

    I appreciate a point of justice in wanting to defend anyone who might take stuff personally. However, these people, at some point, really have to learn to look after themselves with others' support, but not fighting their battles for them .... at least to some degree

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    In light of no moderation, it is up to forumites to stand up for each other, for respect and for the greater good: all of which means challenging the bullies and not accepting their behaviour.
    And to allow the unpleasantness and personal digging to go on, poisoning the atmosphere. Yeah, great! I would agree that a smaller active forum can effectively moderate itself .... I wonder how effective that self moderation can be when a forum grows, and balance shifts from intimacy to anonimity.


    Outside of this thread, I have never reported any, nor given neg feedback.

    I have now reported 5 or 6 posts and given one neg feedback.

    Any reader is free to take any of this personally, in full knowledge that it is their decision, their bag .... and not mine.

    [end of rant!!]

  18. #118
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    The problem is , there's a separation between the real life and forum personae. Some people's on-line persona tend to be more assertive and "in your face". I'm not immune from this "personality amplification" In real life I'm very quiet and un-assertive. sits at the back of the room and doesn't speak until he's spoken to, and would rather have an evening in with Twirly and a DVD than to go out and actually meet people.
    As an aside, most people don't have a "real life personae". Rather, they have several which will vary depending on context. For some people the variation is small; for others, it's large. I know I act quite differently around my friends, my family, my work colleagues, and my customers. Each is a personae and no more real or unreal than the personae I portray online. This is hardly a new or surprising phenomena. I raise it because I dislike giving people the excuse that "how I act online isn't really me". Either you're duplicitous or it is a perfectly real aspect of who you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    The problem is not so much in what's being said but in the way it's said. Some forumites must be seen to take a contrary view to other forumites posts on the basis of either dance company affiliation, politics or just plain personal likes/dislikes.
    There are two major differences between being on-line and having a conversation. One is you can write paragraphs on-line and you can rarely speak in paragraphs (unless it's in a formal setting like a presentation). In conversation, we speak in fragments and phrases. We rarely get to finish a sentence; I once read that if someone finishes a sentence in a conversation it's over.

    Of course, some people write far better than others. The difference range from basic spelling and grammar through the ability to organise an argument right up to the capacity to structure a document. Then you have a significant editing capability that doesn't exist in the real world (and, again, some people use this more than others online; this is an interesting point of contrast: I consciously edit both what I write and what I say, but I can do so far more effectively in writing than I can in conversation).

    The second big difference is feedback. During a conversation, we read the reactions of the person we're talking to and, from that, infer their attitude towards us which leads us modify our behaviour. When listening, as well as words, we have the body language that tends to convey far more of the emotional content that we use to interpret the words. Some people are better at this than others; the stereo-typical geek is less skilled in reading others' responses. All of this stuff can be squeezed into the idea of empathy: empathy online is very hard to create and maintain; it's harder to know what people are feeling when they post online. For some, this is good; for others it's bad.

    In conversation, this feedback is immediate and usually before we've finished the first sentence. Online, the feedback is delayed and will occur after we post. Often well after we post. And it's much easier to ignore; we don't have to look the person in the eye. If a person walks away from a conversation offended, it will affect all but the most insensitive of people. Online, if a person stops posting, it's possible noone will notice (or it could be for a million different reasons).

    The other half of empathy is one thing that doesn't change between being online and a real conversation: the willingness to see the world from another's perspective. Some people are more willing to do this than others. But the difficulties are exacerbated by the online context: online, we can write in paragraphs and we have limited, slow feedback.

    In terms of the forum itself, it means that relatively minor disagreements often get out of hand. The nature of the medium tends to produce a string of dogmatic statements on each side of any given argument (in a good argument there are usually more than two sides). Because they can write in paragraphs, ideas come out full formed and, once written, the nuances of behavioural commitment serve to solidify them in our minds (that's some pretty deep theory: in short, when we publicly ascribe to a belief, it becomes much harder to change that belief). Because we lack immediate feedback, we often misjudge how others will read what we write. Those that don't care how others will respond are not censured; those that do care lack the information to modify their behaviour.

    This is the challenge a moderator faces. Online, you have text to represent the person and the moderator needs to infer the intention behind the text to decide if something's appropriate or not. That's a fine, tricky line to walk. In doing so, the moderators have to put aside their personal prejudices as much as possible (that can be very hard to do).

    Strict rules will work to improve the tone of a forum if, and only if, they are clear and unambiguous, they are universally enforced without prejudice, and they are have the legitimacy of being broadly accepted by the majority of participants (these guidelines look curiously like the basics of any legal system in any society). I've seen tighter rules and moderation work; but I've also them fail and actually kill off vibrant forums.

    I've offered a reasonably amount of analysis here, most of it quite general. But, perhaps, it will serve to inform some of the on-going debate. Or it might be too late and the sides may be set.

  19. #119
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    So how does one politely disprove of a post
    In a live discussion, you know you have dropped a clangor, by the stunned silence. I guess most people are very reluctant to give a negative rep
    May be we need a “slapped wrist” button
    I changed my mind on negative reps. I normally have a very positive mindset as I'm an eternal optimist. But even though it is easy to think of a negative rep as personal - its a built in part of the forum specific to only one post. Seeing how other people used neg rep positively, made me use it more. As a result I now neg rep people for bad puns, grammar, 'repeating all of a post they are replying to' etc...
    Equally positive rep is not personal either and is simply another part of the voting system. In other words, if you disapprove of a post for whatever reason - neg rep it. A "slapped wrist" would be exactly the same thing under a different name, and if people can't force themselves to neg rep, they couldn't use that either. Mind you, maybe there is a lot in the name, "light spanking" would probalby be used more
    Last edited by Dreadful Scathe; 14th-July-2009 at 11:50 AM.

  20. #120
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    May be we need a “slapped wrist” button
    Actually, that's not such a bad idea.

    I think the neg rep button is a bit serious, maybe because it private, it feels a bit too personal..

    Whereas a slapped wrist button, next to the thanks button, would be a simple way of saying. Oi, I think 'this post' is out of order

    note I say..... 'this post' and not 'you're'

    I would hope people wouldn't use it instead of 'quoting' and adding a counter argument but instead, use it as a way of reprimanding someone for writing in a rude or antagonistic manner.
    This way, the conversation could flow, without it being derailed and sidetracked into nitpicking and point scoring on matters that have nothing to do with the subject!
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

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