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Thread: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

  1. #41
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    I know it is not the done thing to talk about the weather, but

    Theory V It has been too good to be sitting at a computer.

  2. #42
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Hi all,

    I joined in 2006, as soon as I joined Ceroc classes. I cant remember the size of the forum at that time, but there were and until recently always a couple of lively discussions up and running. I love this forum and will never willingly leave it. I am far more likely to drop Facebook. I do use both if I get a quiet period at work, but I will always come here first.

    2 types of post do put me off though... Political and Religious posts.

    I get really depressed by backstabbing (House of Commons or elsewhere) so I tend to avoid political news reports (and therefore postings) like the plague. I get the rest of my news from RSS feeds at work, generally read in the morning, when I am most resilient to bad news, which seems to be the only type available


    Religion: I hold my own views on religion, which are deeply personal to me. I fully respect people who feel they can talk about their religion, and envy them their skill and confidence. I however have no wish to get involved in discussions on this topic - acrimonious or not.

    Every other subject I am perfectly happy with, and I do try to add my tuppence worth when something piques my interest.


    For me, I know that I would never have travelled as much without Ceroc, or have been half as sociable even when at home. Ceroc in general and this forum in particular have brought me out of my shell and increased my self confidence many times over (Yes I know you wouldn't be able to tell now - particularly in the Blues room)


    As Mark Twain would put it:

    "The Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated"

    I think that is the case with this forum... Maybe we should all give ourselves some homework - Investigate an interesting topic or theme about which a thread can be formed - extra points if it is dance related.. Any opinions? (What a silly question!)



    Whitetiger

  3. #43
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    I think we should separate DB the forumite from DB the moderator.

    I agree he was often a good initator of discussion and, given the resurgence of interest in AT, I am sure he would have something relevant to contribute if he were around now. However I think his departure from the moderating team was a move for the better. I certainly find the moderation process much less obtrusive than was the case previously.

    People have all kinds of views on why the forum is not so busy from Gus's typically rose tinted spectacles to Amir's characteristically well written summary. Personally, I think everything has it's time. I remember in the late 80s when football fanzines were all the rage - look around now and there's nothing like the same number. I know the Web will account for some of that but not all of it.

    As for the lack of 'technical' dance discussions, well if people aren't asking the questions then it's no surprise that others are not supplying the answers.

  4. #44
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Every forum has flaming (even the Houses of Parliament), but this is the most civilised web forum in the history of the internet.
    Having particpated in various (non dance related) forums over the past 6 months, this forum is far 'harsher' than any of them by a very long way. And they aren't all 'luvvy' either - people just seem to be able to discuss things while respecting that the other person might have a different opinion.

    There is always room for banter - but here it has occasionally generated in unpleasantness and simple trashing of people's opinions. Has that maybe been happening more often?

  5. #45
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Some of the great posters of the past are no longer with us WB,LMC El Gringo etc

    These haven’t been replaced

    Others who provide charm wit insight post a lot less e.g. stewart38,McGreogor ,DB etc

    The only interesting poster at present is ‘rocky’ a few years ago you would have had several

    There is far more cotton wall type stuff, what happen to that mans thread SF set up 2yrs ago ? you could kick a cat in their and you would get a pat on the back ?

    We need a few more take it outside threads

  6. #46
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Having particpated in various (non dance related) forums over the past 6 months, this forum is far 'harsher' than any of them by a very long way. And they aren't all 'luvvy' either - people just seem to be able to discuss things while respecting that the other person might have a different opinion.

    There is always room for banter - but here it has occasionally generated in unpleasantness and simple trashing of people's opinions. Has that maybe been happening more often?
    Disagree the forum is softer then years ago.

    As Amir said they is less to talk about

  7. #47
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Having particpated in various (non dance related) forums over the past 6 months, this forum is far 'harsher' than any of them by a very long way. And they aren't all 'luvvy' either - people just seem to be able to discuss things while respecting that the other person might have a different opinion.
    I must hang about on dodgy forums then , but saying that, I don't see the lack of respect that there are different opinions in the world, but others seem to see it.

  8. #48
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    The forum has grown from 16 (ref, his Blueness) to 3,000+.

    I can’t help but wonder how many members of the forum there would be if you removed any members who

    a) who had less than 50 posts and
    b) who hadn’t posted in the past year

    (excluding lurkers who subscribe, who whilst they may not be active, at least support the forum financially, though I doubt there are many of them). I think that many of that 3,000 might have joined, had a nose around, and then never posted anything, or maybe one or two and then moved on. Which would rather reflect the new starter/fall off rate at Ceroc classes I suspect.

    There is one other factor that could be having an effect – people being barred from accessing certain internet sites at work. This will shortly apply to me, as we move offices in a couple of weeks and the forum is a banned site under the new regime. So whilst I will still come on and post, I won’t be doing it Monday – Friday, 9-5 and I tend to be online a lot less in my own time as I have too many other things to do. I wonder how many other regular posters simply couldn’t access the forum anymore?

    Or maybe they’d said all they could say about dancing in an online capacity? And got bored and went away…

  9. #49
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    I don't think the forum has been killed off.... yet...

    For me, one of the key issues is "safeness". In the good ol' days, there would still be the occasional numptie... Gus would post stuff of a certain character under the ODA hat... Newbies would come and try to change the world...

    There would be a certain amount of group "almost flaming", "that's not how we do things around here" type of posts and things would settle down... even the heated stuff was usually pretty civil (especially compared to other fora).

    For me, the safety issue went out of the window... it suddenly felt less safe to venture opinions... it used to be OK to discuss, debate, even argue the merits of Ceroc, etc... I remember writing an open letter to Franck because of his courage, forsight and tolerance in making the forum what it was... it felt less safe to do so... any anti ceroc sentiment: from weekender stuff to just a single bad night was attacked, discredited and bullied out of existence. I know people who are "scared" to post an honest review of lux event.

    We, as a forum, have let them down.

    At the same time, I left the fold and became an independent. I remember I was erm, reprimanded for a set of posts... I was doing the am going here, here, here and here: would be good to see U type of thing. I was going to 2 Ceroc events and 2 independent events, and was accused of advertising!!

    Was the dance world always so political? Had I been flouncing around in a world of fluffiness and common decency?? FWIW, I like that world, and fluffy pink clouds are great!!!

    It feels that debate, real debate has been stifled.

    "I argue point X" used to get a reply of "well, point X is all well and good, but Y puts that to sleep and Z makes it irrelevant". It now gets a "*** do U know about X, and U're only sayng that because U have an agenda."

    It's pants.

    Enough people care. I haven't thanked him through the system, but respect and thanks to Stokie boy for raising this... The forum is what we make it. We can make it better. We can make it safer... We can argue with respect... We can decide not to tolerate those who do not...

    As (I think) Lory said... Somebody, Anybody, Everybody, Nobody... This is our chance to be Somebody.

    (For the record, this isn't Franck beating here... I still have same respect for him, I think he still has same feel about Forum, tolerance, open honest debate, etc...)
    Last edited by CJ; 13th-July-2009 at 12:14 PM.

  10. #50
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    There is one other factor that could be having an effect – people being barred from accessing certain internet sites at work. This will shortly apply to me, as we move offices in a couple of weeks and the forum is a banned site under the new regime. So whilst I will still come on and post, I won’t be doing it Monday – Friday, 9-5 and I tend to be online a lot less in my own time as I have too many other things to do. I wonder how many other regular posters simply couldn’t access the forum anymore?

    Or maybe they’d said all they could say about dancing in an online capacity? And got bored and went away…
    Life changes & priorities, innit.

    I worked out that since I joined the forum I've
    Moved house 3 times
    Been made redundant twice
    Worked with a smurf
    Had 2 husbands
    Lost an immediate family member to cancer
    Got tattooed
    Taxi'd, taught, DJ'd, opened 2 venues
    Discussed footwork with AndyMcG a few times
    And more stuff I can't remember....

    Sadly, I'm too busy at work these days to post much. I lurk, though. And I don't dance much, so I'm not as enthusiastic as I was.

    On the subject of moderation - I think the forum did change significantly when Moderators were introduced. Personally, I prefered it beforehand - as I argued at the time, I prefer to be treated as an adult & to be responsible for my own postings. I also like threads to drift off-topic... They seem to quickly die a death when they get split.

    Can we breathe some new life into here? Gus was always good at starting interesting discussions...

  11. #51
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I can’t help but wonder how many members of the forum there would be if you removed any members who

    a) who had less than 50 posts and
    You can find this out by looking at the members list - there are about 500 people with 50 posts or more.
    b) who hadn’t posted in the past year
    I couldn't see how to do this easily, however.

    (excluding lurkers who subscribe, who whilst they may not be active, at least support the forum financially, though I doubt there are many of them). I think that many of that 3,000 might have joined, had a nose around, and then never posted anything, or maybe one or two and then moved on.
    Roughly 1500 people have never posted.

    Another stat (only approx, I couldn't be bothered to do it exactly): between 2005 - 2007, there were something like 40 people joining per month. Over the last 3 months, it's been less than half that.

  12. #52
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    You can find this out by looking at the members list - there are about 500 people with 50 posts or more.
    I couldn't see how to do this easily, however.

    Roughly 1500 people have never posted.

    Another stat (only approx, I couldn't be bothered to do it exactly): between 2005 - 2007, there were something like 40 people joining per month. Over the last 3 months, it's been less than half that.
    Most of those stats are fairly typical of most online forums; and human activity in general. Most of the activity are generated by a minority of the participants. There are exceptions to the 80/20 rules, but they tend to be few and far between (and usually easy to explain). This is only a partial picture of what goes on.

    For myself, I tend to make relatively few posts, but I tend to make them longer and put both time and thought into them. I occasionally get myself embroiled in long exchanges (or arguments), but try not to let that happen. I know I can be abrasive sometimes, but I try to focus on points made in posts rather than the character of the individual (not always successfully; something that I usually regret).

    One of the factors is the emergence of Web 2.0 (things like Facebook, Twitter, Youtube). One of the key characteristics of Web 2.0 is the reliance on user-generated content. This is really what Forums are all about and, as a result, Web 2.0 has changed the way forums are being used. A lot of the social chit-chat between people who know one another has most likely migrated from the forum to other media.

    The tone or behaviour of members of the forum is, by and large middle of the road. It's well enough moderated that it never degenerates to the childish abuse that a large number of forums achieve. I've been on political, religious and philosophical forums where the tone is far less antagonistic, despite the fact that these places focus on presenting, arguing and critiquing people's most preciously held beliefs. But I've been on more social forums which degenerate into childish slagging matches for no apparent reason. Moderation is one reason for that, but it's going to be more than that.

    Another reason is that MJ will self-select the sort of people who attend. For example, this forum seems to attract a proportionally lower number of teenagers and those that it does attract tend to be more used to dealing with adults (at dancing, if nowhere else) than appears to be the norm. Participating in dancing requires a certain degree of civility in behaviour; this has been created (I suspect deliberately) as a norm of behaviour at the various events and venues and carries into the forum itself.

    Unfortunately, the tone of a forum (or culture, if you want to grab a business buzzword) is very hard to manipulate. It's the product of the interactive behaviour of everyone involved. Whatever rules are enforced will tend to drive away people who don't agree with them (this is all usually tacit); so any rules have to be consistent with the norms of the majority of members. In political philosophy, this is called legitimacy. It's a major challenge and becomes much harder when participation is completely voluntary.

    People will always come and go from an on-line forum (I actually joined first in 2002; stopped posting when I returned to NZ in 2003 and rejoined in 2007 when I returned to the UK). Everyone will have their own reasons for coming and going. If there is a significant pattern to the reasons for people leaving, then it might be something for Frank and the moderators to address. I simply don't know if there is a genuine pattern to it.

    What is most important is the fact that things change. Both the things in themselves and the people perceiving those things. This forum will never be like it was in 2006, 2005 or 2008. Some people will see it as better; some worse and some, just different. I see it as different from how it was in 2002, but then, so am I.

    The bottom line is quite straightforward. A few people in this thread have expressed some dissatisfaction with the forum and how it has changed; a few others have said they're still happy. If enough people actually are unhappy, the forum will change substantially (most likely, by those people leaving). If those people are in a minority, the forum will continue its evolution. And, in the middle of all this, the moderators and Frank can decide to act or not, which will further change the dynamics.

    I shall watch with interest... (and maybe a few posts).

  13. #53
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Was the dance world always so political?
    In short, yes. If you've ever seen Strictly Ballroom (the film) and been behind the scenes at a ballroom competition, you'd know that the film is far less exaggerated than some people might think. And this includes the over-acting drama queens.

    Modern Jive's never achieved this level of primadonnaism, but the raw material's all there and this translates into competition between the various schools within the scene.

    It might be true to say that even 5-10 years ago, MJ was still trying to define MJ itself and was therefore much more of a co-operative environment between Ceroc and the other MJ providers (I don't know...). But now, as there's been a level of maturity, each school is trying to assert it's individual dominance and that produces the sort of competitive behaviour that we call politics.

  14. #54
    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thread Title
    Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    <-------

    Have just noticed this.. when people like ME (who has about nearly no interest in MJ any more) can get an Activity award on a DANCING FORUM! well is it any wonder the forums going to hell in a hand basket?

    (2 questions.. (A) How/When did that happen? and (ii) That must mean the Irrelevant Nonsense to intelligent conversation quotient must be woefully out of balance, does it not?)

    You would have thought that , and call me naive here if you will, that the predominant form of discussion on a dancing forum would, invariably , actually be about dancing?

    How to improve the forum? plot average attendance at actual weekly classes/ weekend events. Ban posts from anyone in the upper and lower 20% percentiles on the bell curve. This rids the forum of those that don't have a clue what they're talking about (ie.. moi!) and the potential hot shot brigade who think they know better than anyone else.

    I could write you a little PHP script to hook this functionality into the forum based on membership card swipes if you want Franck?

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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Firstly I like this forum, although I don't post here often, and am unlikely to because it doesn't fit in with the subjects I desire to discuss usually (like politics and religion, believe it or not, and my pet topic family law reform upon which I can bore for England!).

    As far as any hostility here goes I've experienced a little, but believe me its very mild compared to most "father's" forums, or single parent forums.

    Recently I've found Boris Johnson's forum manages to keep a good balance and level of friendliness going on almost any topic, though there are no holds barred on the subjects being examined.

    I used to be a member of Round Table, and that organisation has declined in numbers in the UK both in those years I attended and since then (not sure how much I was to blame??). Talking about our weaknesses or shortage of numbers seemed to paralyse us though, certainly the Amesbury branch/Table, No. 1091, whilst some Tables around us still seemed to thrive (Andover for example). That's a bit of a warning for us now and I've heard other people say something similar about organisations they were involved in.

    My guess is so long as Ceroc/dance remains as popular as it is, and men and women seek one another's company now and again, then there is a fairly bright future - I think that summary echoes some other people's views and I hope we're proved right.

  16. #56
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    I used to be prolific in my postings: I was learning lots and just about everyone here was better than me and had opinions I could draw from and form my own opinion with.

    I've aged a bit and have fairly strong opinions that I have now backed up with experience - I know what difference it makes stepping back on either foot and I know how to lead it. I can spin in either direction on either foot and know lots of little things that make it better. I think I know just about every move there is, if not I can wing it fairly well. My arm-jive could do with a little polish on it, but by now I think I've ironed out a lot of the kinks and wrinkles that I came to the forum to enquire about.

    The things I am now learning and focusing on are so "insignificant" that describing what I'm trying to achieve and the routes I'm taking to get there are almost meaningless to anyone other than me: When to start moving between beats, how to prepare for one movement while still leading another, how to incorporate foot styling into footwork, how to lead more while doing less,... This forum is an open forum and stuff like this passes waaaay over most beginner's heads - and those that don't understand or don't get the relevance can't help but post derogatory "you saddo - just dance and see what happens" comments.

    I don't start many threads now because I've been there and done that - but I will always try and help anyone that I see treading the same path I've been over so they perhaps will find it easier than me and miss the things I bumped into.

    The forum isn't dead. As long as there is a relevant archive, I doubt it will ever die. it just needs some new blood to ask some questions and get some answers other than "check post #234563 from 1935 - it covers this issue." {<-guilty}

  17. #57
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Here we are spared people like this, but out of the mouths of ****s like this who exploit social media comes much wisdom.

    http://socialmediamoneysystem.com/download/

  18. #58
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Here we are spared people like this, but out of the mouths of ****s like this who exploit social media comes much wisdom.

    http://socialmediamoneysystem.com/download/
    gah, more abuses of the world wide web - i need to do my own site..."send me money,and Ill point you to where you can get information on everthing" clue: the www

  19. #59
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Most of the people who I knew when I started on here that posted with wit, intelligence and banter have left and reason most of them give is that it just became too draining. Seriously the level of stupidity (to quote Amir) on here from people with no knowledge at all about what they are talking about is deafening.

    That's why you see so few Commercial Operators who are active - why would you spend your time building a business and to try to offer something for the dance community just to have people publicly criticize what you do without ever actually taking the time to pick up a phone, write an email or talk to you personally about issues before airing their views in a very public manner?

    Some people believe that the Forum is less prevalent because of the 'flaming' that goes on - and of course this is rubbish. The flaming and the sarcasm was at much higher levels pre rule change, and it's of course what draws people to the Forum on occasion. You may not want to admit it, but let's face it if every one had the same opinions and posted in a respectful way the threads would be a lot less interesting.

    I think the moderators on a whole do a very good job, given the rules they have to work within, and I for one think it is a much better place without David Bailey.

    I stay because I absolutely abhore the hypocrisy that is exhibited on here day in and day out and so see it as my mission to put the over inflated, the inane, the 'thanks' hounds and the downright stupid in their place - and guess what, those are the ones that bleat on about 'flaming' - so go figure..

    As Stewart says, at least it's interesting...
    Last edited by Tiggerbabe; 13th-July-2009 at 11:58 PM. Reason: Personal attack.

  20. #60
    B.O.G.O.F. fletch's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    The reasons I have stopped posting in any quantities is.

    1. Not wanting someone knowing every think I do.

    2. some people twisting every thing people say and loosing the meaning behind the post

    3. The total BO!!OCK$ some people talk

    4. The &R$E licking by some

    and its just my opinion but i'm glad DB not on hear, we didn't exactly get on, he was very much more eloquent with his words than me and used it to point score, IMO he would also have a very well cosen dig at me and when I retaliated it would get deleted the post and give me warning points.

    any way off to do some thing more interesting

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