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Thread: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

  1. #21
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    or pitched street battles between the Apple Jets Vs the PC Sharks
    :
    These always seem to be fairly civil. I seem to get a lot of sympathy for owning a PC

    However Bill Gates v rest of the world is a different matter

  2. #22
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Warning - please go get a bucket to be sick in before reading the first part of this post.

    I met Gav through the forum and I'm happier now that I've ever been in my life. For that reason the forum will always be very special to me.

    I'm still on here daily, but I don't post anything like as much as I used to...I echo what others have said that there aren't as many posts I'm interested in and I can't be arsed to start new ones myself. I don't start threads much because it's impossible to have an opinion on the forum or really speak your mind without getting flamed big time for it, so I don't bother. *shrug*

  3. #23
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Personally, I don’t post much anymore because there’s very little I feel like contributing to these days. The so called serious discussions about dancing have all but dried up, and the social threads are virtually meaningless to me as I no longer live in the UK.

    I don’t think FB has a lot to do with why the forum traffic is dropping. In my experience it’s s useful tool for keeping track of your friends or getting in touch with people you know but don’t have more normal contact details for, but that’s about it. I do my best to block unwanted advertising. I imagine most people are more or less the same. It doesn’t seem to me to be a convenient tool for open discussion, perhaps because it’s too personal.

    I think most of the old dance focused posters are just lurking due to the amount of abuse they were getting from the sidelines, and because virtually without fail any serious discussion started getting inundated with people complaining (often loudly) that they were taking it all too seriously. Certainly I’ve been left wondering why I bother at all, and there’s only so many times you can tell people they don’t have to read it before just giving up. Of course, this feeds on itself and tends to create a downwards spiral where there are fewer and fewer people ready to put their thoughts down start the threads in the first place.

    It’s possible that the WCS posts have had something to do with it, although I’m not entirely convinced that’s the case yet. This might be a little touchy, but I think a lot of the WCS discussions have dried up because there’s a reasonable amount of preaching without any useful contribution being made by a number of louder posters. In essence I think there’s a contingent of WCS posters who just want to be seen to be better than everyone else but not bring anything to the table. That get’s tiring for everyone else involved, and makes people think twice before typing. It may just be that the technique junkies tended to gravitate to those threads anyway though, and when they started lurking the WCS threads started running out of steam.

    Also, loosing David Bailey hurt the forum a lot. He was the only moderator who actively tried to stimulate debate, and I suspect that started taking it’s toll after a while. The stimulus for him leaving seems to have left a lot to be desired too. Still, if one person made such a big difference to the character of the forum there was something wrong to begin with in my opinion.

  4. #24
    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I met Gav through the forum and I'm happier now that I've ever been in my life. For that reason the forum will always be very special to me.
    likewise ... And by that I mean I met Lousie and because of this forum I'm now living in London and planning a wedding! Not meeting Gav that is

    This forum has a lot to a answer for

  5. #25
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    How many people have I introduced to the forum? 0

    I have mentioned it to a few people as the source of information, but none of those expressed any other interest.

    It should grow naturally with people finding it on searches, but I suspect that the CerocScotland name puts most southerners off.

    One reason for a lack of enthusiasm may be a good one, Ceroc gets so much right for the customers it has that there is little need for a public area to grouse and complain and make suggestions.

  6. #26
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I'm sure I have lot's of 'friends' on FB, who have no interest in me, or my opinions or anything else, they have simply made friends with me because they see me as a 'commodity' or a channel through which they can advertise.
    I'll be a FB friend Lory, no strings and nothing to advertise



  7. #27
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    When I joined there were 835 members approx. It felt like a huge community but when I joined and began getting involved in a few postings I began to get to know the forum members and the personalities, then it didn't seem do big, I got to know them through their postings and slowly got to know them personally as we met up at freestyles and weekend events all round the country.

    The postings were mainly fun and inane and amusing informative feisty but rarely ever overly aggressive. As you got to know the names, the styles of the names postings, you became aware of the relevant merits of the posters.

    I have posted over 6000 times most are inane rubbish, attempts at amusement, there are the occasional attempts as rational thought provoking comment.
    The forum and the friends I had made it was certainly a pleasant place to be... but then as the forum has grown year on year I felt more and more as a smaller fish in a much larger pond. This is not a bad thing in itself.

    Then came the clampdown and rule enforcement era.
    I was personally affronted when I was given an infraction message. But this was the new forum... but still it has grown and grown. Then we saw the flame wars...and all and sundry logged on to see A.N.Other slag off SomeONE ELSE..
    then there was the Ceroc v JA slagfest as Ceroc joined the weekender market.
    And still it grew and grew in member numbers... BUT the friends made in the early days stopped posting ... stopped looking... the number of postings by friends slowed to a fraction ..the newer members began there own forum lives and relationships but still the slagfests continued unabated....
    Then slowly but surely you can see a noticable drop in the number of postings daily...over 3000 members but daily postings dropping and very much reduced.

    My opinion for whats worth is the forum has become less of a community over period of time and in some places certain persons have been allowed to be far too aggressive/rude/nasty.

    In my 6000+ postings I have tried to treat others reasonably.

    Some others have looked at the luvviness of the early forum and told us all we are bad people for being luvvy nice and reasonable and subsequently more slagfests ensued.

    Result is that many of reasonable nice people stop posting..stop participating or participating far less. Many good people have left after being treated poorly...many respected members of the dance community...many others just nice people...

    So that's as much as I can write tonight...its been a funny amusing place to be and I have made so many friends from the place but I don't post as much now and don't read so much anymore...and many of my friends generally are not posting either.

    There is a new community using the forum, some older members are part of this community many others are not, although some look in occasionally.

    The new community will not grow as it should, all the time the bully boys hold sway.

    It is an insidious cancer that some how needs to be eliminated from this place to allow it to prosper.

    All should be allowed to voice opinions without fear of being flamed.

    By all means challenge opinions with your own but keep the personal abuse out of the forum. Then maybe, maybe the cerocscotland forum can become again a happy place to be.

    I can but live in hope.

    Live and let dance.

  8. #28
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Doolan View Post
    I'll be a FB friend Lory, no strings and nothing to advertise


    me too ...

  9. #29
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    When I joined there were 835 members approx. It felt like a huge community but when I joined and began getting involved in a few postings I began to get to know the forum members and the personalities, then it didn't seem do big, I got to know them through their postings and slowly got to know them personally as we met up at freestyles and weekend events all round the country.
    Likewise I got to know a lot of people through the forum but when I joined there were only 16 members, and there was only 2 of them i didn't know personally . However, I think we are in danger if putting too much import on the whole thing, the forum became big and unwieldy some time ago, but there were enough people posting to keep the different areas going - now it seems stretched too thin. Maybe it is just too difficult to find areas of interest now, so people give up looking?

    The postings were mainly fun and inane and amusing informative feisty but rarely ever overly aggressive.
    It happened now and again, but it was easy enough to manage in the early days. Rest assured I have struggled to keep, at least my posts, mostly inane


    I have posted over 6000 times most are inane rubbish, attempts at amusement, there are the occasional attempts as rational thought provoking comment.
    Ooh, me too

    The new community will not grow as it should, all the time the bully boys hold sway.
    I think that is an exaggeration, no "bully boys" hold sway - 'they'* are argued with and can be ignored if you so wish. A couple of argumentative threads are not why the forum is quieter, surely its the lack of other threads of interest that is the problem.

    * definition of 'bully boy' is clearly up to the individual readers

    All should be allowed to voice opinions without fear of being flamed.
    Fear being flamed? Its not something you should be taking overly seriously. Depending on the topic, you may well expect to be flamed from certain people but you do not need to take them seriously. Every forum has flaming (even the Houses of Parliament), but this is the most civilised web forum in the history of the internet. Yes, even with Gus on it

  10. #30
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Likewise I got to know a lot of people through the forum but when I joined there were only 16 members, and there was only 2 of them i didn't know personally . However, I think we are in danger if putting too much import on the whole thing, the forum became big and unwieldy some time ago, but there were enough people posting to keep the different areas going - now it seems stretched too thin. Maybe it is just too difficult to find areas of interest now, so people give up looking?



    It happened now and again, but it was easy enough to manage in the early days. Rest assured I have struggled to keep, at least my posts, mostly inane




    Ooh, me too



    I think that is an exaggeration, no "bully boys" hold sway - 'they'* are argued with and can be ignored if you so wish. A couple of argumentative threads are not why the forum is quieter, surely its the lack of other threads of interest that is the problem.

    * definition of 'bully boy' is clearly up to the individual readers



    Fear being flamed? Its not something you should be taking overly seriously. Depending on the topic, you may well expect to be flamed from certain people but you do not need to take them seriously. Every forum has flaming (even the Houses of Parliament), but this is the most civilised web forum in the history of the internet. Yes, even with Gus on it
    points well made and accepted in full maybe I over egged the pudding a little...
    please don't flame me......

  11. #31
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Theory I - Vanity vanity, all is vanity

    Its true the forum has lost some prominent posters. Some nerds and Aussies left for their own forums. Some fanatics started wcs. Some bored at work left for facebook. Some people left out of spite with ceroc or another forum member.

    But there have always been people who leave, only to be quickly replaced by the new.

    So maybe that’s got nothing to do with it.

    Maybe there just used to be more to talk about. I mean, some years ago there were big changes happening in the Modern Jive world, and interesting debates. New and different kinds of weekenders were emerging. New competitions were started and existing ones were evolving. The ‘formula’ for these events hadn’t been worked out and there was genuine interest in what was going to work best. There were changes in ownership, experiments with new kinds of music, people fusing modern jive with blues, with salsa, with tango. New organisations were rocking the boat, forcing people to question the ‘best’ way to dance, to teach, to DJ or to produce a DVD.

    I think a lot of that stuff has now been worked out. Ceroc is in a more mature phase. The conversations are less extreme, less interesting and don’t pull in the crowds.

    Theory II - bring back the sharks

    The only group that left but never got replaced were those only here to advertise. That might sound like a good thing, but although an organiser might only have joined to promote their events, they might stick around to slag off ceroc and brag about their teaching methods, nose around a couple of other threads and perhaps argue about a point or two. These things start conversations and spur on different bands of customers to argue it out too. This isn’t a criticism – there is no reason why Ceroc should pay for a site that advertises its competition. But I do think that aspect probably contributed more than is given credit for.

    Theory III - why say what someone has said for you?

    The ‘thank you’ system, the ‘yeah that’ sign and rep points mean its too easy to refer to an existing post instead of writing your own.

    Theory IV - why use roman numerals and not roman plumbing?

    I know I was often inspired to post by reading something that seemed so stupid I couldn't let it by. Either there are less stupid posts, or I am more stupid and no longer notice. But then, there is no reason why there should be less stupidity on the forum, so it must be that I am more stupid. But if I was stupid, could I have followed the impeccable logic in that last statement? I think not. The only explanation must be there is an equal amount of stupidity, and I am now numb to it. Yes, that must be it. In fact Theory IV proves my reasoning. It makes no sense. And yet strangely, I don't care.

  12. #32
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    ...I think that is an exaggeration, no "bully boys" hold sway - 'they'* are argued with and can be ignored if you so wish. A couple of argumentative threads are not why the forum is quieter, surely its the lack of other threads of interest that is the problem. ...
    My thought on the past year or so of posting is that some of the style of posting has been beyond "I think so and so ..." or "It was horrid/awesome/ghastly ..." to "It was awesome and anyone who says anything else is just a whinging t*t".

    The latter kind of post can be 'validated' by saying "it's just my opinion, people can reply", and yes, that is true, but it makes it much, much harder to reply in a light-hearted way or if you don't want to put on your armour-plating and heat shield. And in a way, it means that the odd inane comment is not being posted and perhaps that's a good thing, but it changes the chatty, jovial nature of the forum.

    It is in contrast to an American suscription professional forum with a few thousand active members that I'm on, that if a post 'feels' wrong, then it probably breaks the rules & is moderated. Members are encouraged to notify the moderators of any posts they believe break the rules. There is also no political or religious discussion (for about a year, these discussions were held in their own forum, until it became clear that people weren't able to maintain any kind of cordiality - and the same discussions were happening with the same people making the same points). It is sanitised in a way, but I never have any issue with posting - it's safe - and there is an entirely different feeling about posting there.

    I'm also on a British invitation-only professional forum, where you can discuss religion, politics, rant, make lewd jokes and swear. Somehow, that too, is a safe place to post, but it has a limited number of 85 members and the people who created it and moderate are very strong personalities and everyone on there has been voted to become a member; if three or more objections are received, they are not invited. Members who don't contribute over a period of months are also removed.

    So yes, perhaps we could have forum rules that ban posts that are discouraging of others' opinions and it would make the forum an easier place to post. Some people would rant over its introduction and leave and we would be in the next phase of the forum.

  13. #33
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Quote
    Most users ever online was 425, 27th-June-2005 at 03:01 PM.
    The above says it all

    Within the first few years I made soooooo many friends from this forum, all over the world - and most I still count as close friends. It was like a big family, the yearly forum gatherings in Scotland where fantastic and felt like a true reunion. This possibly is because the forum was a lot smaller and more 'intimate', unfortunately I hardly know many of the new posters.

    It was more lighthearted at the beginning, however we did have 'heated' discussion and I loved them but they hardly ever got spiteful or personal

    However, I still love the forum and visit it daily, I just have to be more careful with my words


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  14. #34
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    ............Fear being flamed? Its not something you should be taking overly seriously.
    Agreed, but lets face it, we do take the forum, dance and enjoying ourselves seriously, they are both integral parts of our lives

    Being flamed is not enjoyable. Sometimes I wish I had a thicker skin, and wish indeed I could take thing less serious, but some recent replys to my posts, seem to have made with the sole purpose of upsetting me and I don’t like it

  15. #35
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    or pitched street battles between the Apple Jets Vs the PC Sharks
    But at least we interspersed the violence with song and dance numbers.

    Then you fell for an Apple Jet girl*, and peace broke out.

    *At least in spirit, if not in fact - Twirly's always seemed too cool to be a PC shark.***

    **OK - so I'm making things up again***

    ***I'll get my coat, shall I?

  16. #36
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Theory III - why say what someone has said for you?

    The ‘thank you’ system, the ‘yeah that’ sign and rep points mean its too easy to refer to an existing post instead of writing your own.


    (sorry - SOMEONE had to do that. It might as well be me . If I was taking this to its fullest extent, I'd have +repped him then thanked him into the bargain )

  17. #37
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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Regarding the sad fourm demise of David B

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post


    DTS was right to be worried.
    Hmmm .... yes, it's unerring [rather than an earring!]

    Is DTS really the next Nostrodamus ... or holy Welsh scaffolding guiding (boyo) davies lamp .... I will sit on my lotus flower and patiently await his next glorious acclamation .... so long as it's not in Welsh!!

    But seriously (... or should I say sincerely) .... things change [lots of what Amir said + lots of what Under Par said]

    The forum has grown from 16 (ref, his Blueness) to 3,000+. Who could have ever forecasted that level of growth.

    This is the most successful forum that I have ever been a part of, and much credit to Franck for this, almost certainly despite some backstage issues, both technical and personal/political. I feel that he has done a stirling job over the years, managing the growth exceptionally.

    However, all things change, whatever is born will (IMHO) go through cycles, and eventually die. Some are long live, some doomed to an infant demise.

    Inevitably the nature of any sort of community will change with the context and it's population. As Amir said, much in the scene has happened over the years. Maybe there will be few more changes, maybe many.

    Those who were there at the start were different people to who they were at the heydays of the forum, and are different again now.

    People who had major differences in backgrounds and viewpoints have now explored them (sometimes more than once!) and no longer have need and/or desire and/or motivation to do so.

    And, interestingly enough, try taking a look down the names in this thread. Anything familiar? Anything strike a chord?

    It does for me ..... I see names of people (some met, others not) who's views, opinions and morales I respect. Why's that then? Errrm .... errrrr .... dunno? Maybe just nostalgia? Maybe these are the dance gurus of the forum's heyday? Maybe these are just people (and views) that I relate to and reinforce who and how I am?

    So, where to now? It would be interesting to see some manner of graph of no of posts against time.

    I've really not consciously noticed a drop in posts, probably because I am less active, and not so interested (both in forum and dance). My enthusiasm has steadied ... I no longer have to dance twice a week!

    I suspect that things will just move on. Established members will continue to drift away. New blood will come on, the active population will stabilise to some hundreds. Topics will arise that are more relevant to newer, younger (in forum terms) and enthusiastic members.

    I do wonder if the forum is spread too thin. I wonder if a healthy, active forum can successfully sustain a limited number of active members, and a limited number of active topics/threads.

    Time will .... as ever ... be the ultimate test. And, when such time as the forum is no longer relevant to a dancing world, it will surely die. I hope that time is a long way off!!!

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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    likewise ... And by that I mean I met Lousie and because of this forum I'm now living in London and planning a wedding! Not meeting Gav that is

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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I think a lot of that stuff has now been worked out. Ceroc is in a more mature phase. The conversations are less extreme, less interesting and don’t pull in the crowds.
    Good point, we seem to be, Rocky aside, in a more mature organised time of modern jive dance.

    Theory III - why say what someone has said for you?

    The ‘thank you’ system, the ‘yeah that’ sign and rep points mean its too easy to refer to an existing post instead of writing your own.
    Ah the irony of the 'thanks' you received for this, especially from someone called 'lazy dave'


    It makes no sense. And yet strangely, I don't care.
    Life doesn't make sense. Pull up a chair and lets talk about it .

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    Agreed, but lets face it, we do take the forum, dance and enjoying ourselves seriously, they are both integral parts of our lives
    No one expects the spanish inquisition, our two chief things to take seriously are; the forum, dance and enjoying ourselves...doh! Our 3 chief...etc...

    Anyway, speak for yourself, I don't take any of those things seriously In fact "seriously enjoying yourself" sounds like an oxymoron.

    Being flamed is not enjoyable. Sometimes I wish I had a thicker skin, and wish indeed I could take thing less serious, but some recent replys to my posts, seem to have made with the sole purpose of upsetting me and I don’t like it
    I didn't notice that - hope it wasn't me. I'd be surprised if anyone posted something with the "sole purpose" of upsetting you.

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    Re: Who Killed The Ceroc Scotland Forum?

    I dont think the Forum will die, rather taking a little back step for a while at all the changes that have effected it. Ie; facebook, people not posting, ceroc/ja row, change to the forum itself.

    One thing i do notice is that we all, come together at times of good news and at bad news. Look how many people post congratulations when somebody has something good to celebrate and look how many people try and make ya feel better when ya have something bad to share.

    I personally love the forum and have a lot to thank it for. :

    We are all still here i think, we just seem to be taking a little breather for a while.

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