As a follower should I help the leader in class?

[JivePrincess]

Would love to hear from dancers and teachers alike regarding a class environment. When instruction is being given by the teacher and the lead does not do what is being told as a follower is it right to go with the lead or with the instruction. If a man says he is struggling with a particular move I ask if they need help and will then try to ensure that the move is done correct (which may mean ignoring the lead). However if no such request is given I tend to go will always go with the lead which is not always correct and can sometimes lead to total confusion by the man because the move is not going as the instructor is saying. Some leaders do not listen to instruction and just "do their own thing" anyway others genuinely don't understand the instruction and make a mistake. What is the opinion of you guys out there as I would like to know if there is actually a correct etiquette for followers in class. Thanks in advance for your help.

[geoff332]

Everyone will have an opinion. Here's mine.

Firstly, if a move isn't both led and followed correctly, it isn't done correctly. Getting your arms and feet in the approximately the right place is one only part of the move. If a follow backleads a move, then neither of you will be doing it correctly.

Secondly, if the lead wants to learn a move properly, then they're much better off getting it wrong until they lead it correctly (and, yes, I maintain this applies right from the very first class; other's will disagree with that). If they're not interested in learning the move properly, then let them get it wrong. If they're not capable of learning the move properly, then... not sure what to do about that.

Thirdly, backleading is a bad habit for a follow to get into. It leads to all sorts of preempting moves and generally makes the follow much harder to lead. I often find this problem with female taxi dancers (particularly when they're new): they've got into the habit of backleading and their following deteriorates. Of course, a lot of follows don't acquire this habit; if you do decide to backlead, be conscious that it could be bad for your dancing.

Of course, it's never black and white. Some people need the encouragement of completing a move to keep them interested, particularly when they're new. And the leader may be part way there with the move, so it's better to help finish it off and so forth. And even with the best leader in the world, the follow does have to help them out when the lead gets it wrong (we all do...).

[NZ Monkey]

As long as opinions are being asked for I’ll add mine to the mix

I’m afraid the only answer I can give is that it’s going to be a case-by-case judgment call. We all learn things differently and something that helps one man might just annoy another, assuming of course that the man is really interested in getting it right in the first place…..

I agree with Geoff for the most part though – if you decide to backlead something to help the leader get the overall shape of the move, then at least mentally remind yourself that this is a bad and that you are not following when you do*. That way it’s less likely to become a habit that will detrimentally affect you later. Just remember though that at some point (sooner rather than later before he thinks he really is doing it right) you’ll need to let him lead the whole thing, and worry about following it yourself. Some women routinely back lead everything in classes, and personally I find they are among the most frustrating people to try and learn something new with.

Generally speaking we all need to get something wrong before we start getting it right. Some guys learn better by falling off the proverbial bike a lot until they can stay on it themselves, and others learn better with training wheels until they’re ready to take them off. I, and from the sounds of it Geoff, are the former. If you’re not sure which your particular partner is then good luck

*N.B. This does not make you a bad person, but back leading isn’t doing anything for your dancing.

[straycat]

I also agree with Geoff. I think on most occasions, it comes down to learning vs. enjoyment.

You'll learn to follow better, and you'll help to teach the leads better if you only follow what is led, and do not self-lead.

You'll probably have more fun if you do self-lead when necessary, and you'll give the inexperienced leads a morale boost, because they'll think they're leading you better.

Myself, I prioritize learning when I'm in a class situation. I think most newcomers will prefer to go the enjoyment route.

[Gav]

I've struggled with moves in classes and once or twice, ladies have offered to help and back-led me through it. That has been a huge help and allowed me to "get" it.

However, the last thing I would want is for someone to just back-lead me without saying anything. That way I would be thinking I "got" it, when I really hadn't; very unhelpful!

[JivePrincess]

Thanks guys - you pretty much backed up what I thought. I have been dancing many years and follow very well. My instinct always says go with the lead and this would always be my first choice. Sometimes however if I do a class and go with the lead I get a look of total frustration usually followed by you did that wrong! I would not normally correct a leader by telling him actually I only went where I was told to go but move on to the next man and hope he was paying attention. There are a lot of egos in class and I am not one for causing upset. I figure if he continually gets it wrong with the ladies he might figure out it might be his lead not the follower. I agree that to learn properly the leader must learn to lead or he stands no chance in freestyle. I was just conscious that perhaps my instinct might hinder rather than help. Appreciate the feedback and I will continue to follow and offer assistance when asked.

[Lory]

Firstly, I'd say that in any normal Ceroc class, the time with each guy in the rotation is too short to help effectively, without disrupting the teacher on the stage.

Secondly, as NZ Monkey said, what helps one guy, might annoy another

So, taking the above points into account, I'd play safe by just following 'exactly' what he leads.
Hopefully it'll dawn on him that its going wrong because 'he's leading' it wrongly

If, and only if you have more time and your confident you know the guy will appreciate it (and lots do) you could ask them if they want you to help by back leading. I do this quite often, with things like pretzels, as they 'look' far more complicated than they really are and once a guy has the 'feeling' of it, they usually say... ohhhh, thats all it is

So, IMO there's no hard and fast right or wrong, you just have to make a judgement call!

[Gerry]

I have found that when I occassional do a jive class a portion of the followers go through the moves without actually allowing me to lead them, this is highly off putting. I come away feeling rather disenchanted.

The few times that I get to follow in a jive environment I ensure that I hold back and try my best just to follow whatever is thrown at me, on most occassions I have not got a clue what I am being led into.

I agree with the others that it is much better to allow yourself to be led regardless of whether it is correct or not. Obviously if you feel your are going to be hurt you should then make a comment.

[David Franklin]

Would love to hear from dancers and teachers alike regarding a class environment. When instruction is being given by the teacher and the lead does not do what is being told as a follower is it right to go with the lead or with the instruction. If a man says he is struggling with a particular move I ask if they need help and will then try to ensure that the move is done correct (which may mean ignoring the lead).

I'd say there's a distinction between a man leading the right thing badly, and a man leading the wrong thing well (or at least adequately).

Here, it sounds like the latter case. In which case, I don't see it as a 'lead-and-follow' issue; it's more of a 'learning the movement' issue. So long as he's actively asked for help, so you're both aware normal lead/follow rules don't apply, I think backleading him through it a couple of times is fine. Just make sure you stop doing it as soon as he's got the movement in his head.

As Lory said, I find this happens most often with twisty turny moves, where often the guy finds it difficult to visualise the shape he's supposed to be making behind his back (and if he's unlucky, he's also facing away from the teacher at the critical moment).

[frodo]

Would love to hear from dancers and teachers alike regarding a class environment. When instruction is being given by the teacher and the lead does not do what is being told as a follower is it right to go with the lead or with the instruction. If a man says he is struggling with a particular move I ask if they need help and will then try to ensure that the move is done correct (which may mean ignoring the lead). However if no such request is given I tend to go will always go with the lead which is not always correct and can sometimes lead to total confusion by the man because the move is not going as the instructor is saying. Some leaders do not listen to instruction and just "do their own thing" anyway others genuinely don't understand the instruction and make a mistake. What is the opinion of you guys out there as I would like to know if there is actually a correct etiquette for followers in class. Thanks in advance for your help.

I'm not sure there is a particular etiquette in general - depends on the ethos of the particular class.

The proportions vary according to the skills of the backleader but I reckon 25% of the time backleading is helpful, and the rest of the time it is unhelpful.


Most frequently a backleader can identify that a move is wrong, but they are unable to correctly the underlying cause (which can be hard to do without being psychic).

It rather interrrupts working through the bit that went wrong, having to smile while being helpfully backled though a bit that was only a problem because it depended on the bit before.

[Danny]

Simple Answer:
First time, I should have a go at the move like normal without the lady backleading.
If I say I'm having trouble...
We have a second go very quickly before the teacher moves us on with her backleading me and explaining the move.

I'm just very wary of giving Follows any more opportunities to lead when its not welcome as depending on venues you go to, backleading Follows vary in intensity.

[Lynn]

As others have said - it depends - on the person, how well you know them, the move, the class etc. If he is a beginner leading part of the move the wrong way then I would tend to leave it to the taxis to sort out in the revision class - I don't want to distract a beginner from focusing on the teacher during the class itself. If in the intermediate and eg the guy is standing there looking completely confused and facing the wrong direction to everyone else in the initial go through, I'll just move us round to where we should be. The main thing is to stop the guy feeling embarrassed about getting it wrong - and at that stage there will be a lot more times through the move so as long as he knows where we are supposed to end up, he can work on how to get there.

If its the 'twice through to a count or music' part then I just follow... I don't backlead myself through what I 'should' be doing. Then if he isn't leading it properly he may ask for help, or I might offer to go through it after the class.

[Moondancer]

My tendency is always to follow what is led unless I am asked for input, but it is a sticky one because every man is different, and I don't think a one size fits all solution works.

I would broadly sort leaders into 3 categories:


1) Leads who want you to follow whatever they lead, right or wrong

2) Leads who want input or to be backled (and quite possibly have no interest in getting the move right anyway, so just want the class to be pleasant)

3) Leads who will lead badly and when the move doesn't happen the expected way will say it's the follower's fault for "not knowing the move". I think this translates as "Backlead subtly and massage my ego, woman!"

[steveha]

I'd just changed partners in a class and the new follow asked me whether the turn in the move was (anti)clockwise?
I was about to say but decided to tell her "it's whatever way I lead you!"

I tend to be quite rigid about dancing on the beat. I hate it when the follow not so much backleads as simply whizzes ahead.
Most frightening is when they throw themselves into a drop ahead of schedule.

[jim]

I found being led helpful when I was new and inexperienced.
Now I find it's actually more likley to make me go wrong than if I'm left alone.

[geoff332]

Most frightening is when they throw themselves into a drop ahead of schedule.

My theory is that if a follow puts herself into a drop, the lead has no obligation to catch her. Gravity is a very good teacher.

[Phil_dB]

As a Leader, I prefer my Following partner to just follow whatever it is I lead.

I agree with Lory that there's not enough time in class for Follows to provide extra tuition to their partner, it does disrupt the class with rotation, plus you'll probably miss whatever else the teacher is saying.

And like Gerry, I also find Follows who backlead very disenchanting. Backleading is of no help to me, - it doesn't teach me how to LEAD a move, - and usually I'm left unsure with what move took place anyway. Surely Follows are there to learn to follow anyway? They're not going to backlead in freestyle, so why do it in class. Being back-led feels completely wrong, I find it pointless (for both Lead & Follow) and it can turn into a wrestling match.

Personally I don't think Leaders need any "extra" help from Follows - following is more than enough , If I lead a move wrong, it's most probably because 1. I'm not paying attention, 2. I can't see the demonstration from where I'm standing, 3. The teachers haven't taught how to lead the move in enough detail (I know that last one sounds like i'm blaming someone else, but from time to time this does happen, often though you only realise this if you've learnt the move before and you notice that they've left out a key but subtle detail which makes the move work)