There's being honest and there's being plain rude.
For example, if I'm honest, I understand how you feel and sympathise, but I think your choice of expression, such as "numptie and incompetent" are bound to upset people and detract from your message.
If I'm being blunt, you've come across on this thread as a complete w4nker.
Someone complains about NickC's choice of expression by quoting something he never said and you think he's splitting hairs?
How dare you call for NickC to be tarred and feathered the next time he goes dancing?
Oh, I guess you never actually said that. But let's not split hairs, eh?
No, I'd totally disagree. As you said yourself - we were all beginners once. We all started off incompetent and not knowing how to dance. So there's nothing wrong with that (either the observation that some dancers are incompetent, or being an incompetent dancer yourself).
What's wrong is when you start ridculing those people by calling them numpties. NickC isn't the person who did that.
Funny how the name calling always seems to come from the people who profess to be so worried about people's feelings...
Edit: in honesty, I don't really like the word "incompetent" in this context. But it seems far less pejorative than numpty.
Well that's how it seems to you, but it's still hair splitting. How about saying that everyone at a weekender was a poor dancer? Is that arrogant or offensive enough for you?
Edit: Also, I've apologised for my accidental incorrect assignment of that term, so what exactly are you arguing about?
That would be better (as in it would at least be a lot closer to something NickC actually said).
My reply wasn't to you, so your apology wasn't terribly relevant to what I was saying. As always, internet discussions are somewhat asynchronous.Edit: Also, I've apologised for my accidental incorrect assignment of that term, so what exactly are you arguing about?
To go back to the original question, is it morally wrong to say it - no. Is it socially inept - probably.
(I in no way agree with the example I am about to give)
Let's say I'm a lead who enjoys doing moves which involve having both my arms round my partners waist (can't think what it's called - looks a bit like a cuddle sway). On some follows who are "bigger" (chest or stomach), these moves are going to be more difficult. I would not however go on a public forum as say "I hate dancing with fat heffers". (Extreme example I know - and much more harsh than NickC's original quote, but it's for illustrative pruposes only)
As we've seen time and time again on this forum, it's often the manner in which you come across that people react to rather than your actual message.
There are people I don't like dancing with. I dislike dancing with someone that causes me pain (I'm funny that way). If they give me a whole bunch of attitude for not following their non existant lead, I don't like dancing with them either (again, I'm funny that way too). Also, I'm not keen on dancing with people who try to lead me to a gorgeous slinky blues track in a manner which makes me think they are actually listening to the Lady GaGa track which is lilting in from the next room.
Most people would not object me to voicing these opinions (albeit the last point could inspire a debate about beginners in the blues room) - however if I was just to state a throw away comment that "these people can't dance" without any explanation, then they would jump down my throat. Even after I try to explain myself, they would probably stay down my throat, giving me aggro accordingly. And I can't say I would entirely blame them.
For me it goes back to the guy in the class who is someone I would describe as an arrogant intermediate - believes himself to be too good for the beginners revision class, but really has issues leading, and as such, stands and gives me grief for not following his non existant lead. I do not beleive in back leading - so such an exchange usually sees the introduction of my prickly side. He undoubtedly would leave the dance floor telling his pals not to dance with that red headed b*itch who clearly cannot dance.
(Untrue for the record - my arm jive is coming along nicely )
Most people would write off that kind of comment from him as an example of his inability to lead and arrogance - and by stating your view in a similar way (i.e. "they can't dance") people are unfortuantely putting you (NickC) in the same category.
(Longer post than I was expecting to make - clearly haven't posted in long enough)
(that being said I've just had to retype the whole thing cause the forum logged me off )
To get at what I though NickC was implying when I read his comments in the other thread I can only say that when I go to weekenders and freestyles I'm looking for the kinds of dance experience that I can't necessarily get at normal class nights. Therefore, if I went to a weekender and found that there was a preponderence of follows that didn't seem to click with my particular dance style and sense of musicality then I'd likely not enjoy it and I'd probably not go back. That's not to say that I judge them to be numpties (I've failed to click with all sorts of people, many of whom are great dancers) - just accept that it didn't work for the combination of that track and that partner.
I don't believe that I'm an arrogant hot-shot in any way. I dance with the intention of making things look and feel good for my partner regardless of the relative levels of experience, but I've had a few nights at freestyles where I've been left strangely unsatisfied myself with the experience because I've simply not had enough dances where the follow has been 'demanding' enough. I get a different kind of enjoyment from dancing with beginners, or ladies that simply like to go through a bunch of moves by rote regardless of the music, but i do need more than this to feel satisfied with a night out dancing. I'd not be so callous as to put anyone else's dancing in the numptie category, but I'd not like to spend a whole night dancing and feeling unfulfilled either so my answer to the question is no.
I've never been to a Ceroc weekender so I can't comment on the relative numbers of accomplished male and female dancers that you get between Ceroc and JA events. NickC's view seems to be that the ladies at the JA weekenders do more to float his particular boat, for whatever reason. He might not have put this very eloquently but it has clearly impacted his reasons for attending JA rather than Ceroc events. All down to personal choice I suppose.
Just a quick point here – the “right” way to lead a move for a follower who isn’t particularly good at following yet almost always involves over-leading. Sure, it’s what you do when they’re starting out to help them get the hang of it, but I think it’s wrong to assume that doing so improves your lead. It might, depending on your lead but not necessarily so.Originally Posted by Filthy Monkey
I often find I have to arm- and over- lead things with beginners because they don’t have a decent connection yet and something cleaner would be missed. I don’t consider this to be an overall improvement of my technique though, and as many long-term taxi dancers can attest it can have the opposite effect if you do it often enough.
I think I was the only one that actually spelt it "numpties" thinking it the plural of numpty, but have yet to call anyone it. Not that that would be a big deal, it can be an endearing term - see here - ignore some of the ruder definitions, i always took numpty to mean nothing stronger than "fool".
Out of interest, just how many people are there who both complain a lot about others, and go into immense technical detail? I can't say I've noticed that particular combination...
Of the people who do the latter, of course, it could be that some of us actually do know what we're talking about
Interesting point and possibly a different topic/thread - what constitutes a "good"/"bad" lead? To lead a beginner with no idea about frame/technique usually requires a much stronger, clearer lead than a much more experienced dancer who will be sensitive to body leading, subtle differences in direction/tension and so on, but does that make the former a bad lead? Surely a good lead is one that results in the follow moving as the lead intended, regardless of the means used to achieve this?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Bookmarks