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Thread: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    Quote Originally Posted by NickC View Post
    T
    the dancers were poor and I hate dancing with women that can't dance,
    Forum response .... you cant say that -ve rep (inc myself )

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Is it morally wrong to hate/not enjoy dancing with ladies who cannot dance ?
    Why shouldn't feel free to express what he feels when it isn't directed at anyone in particular ?
    A bit of guts saying what you feel rather then what you should say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    We don't care, this is the aftermath thread for Skeggy...if you wanna discuss dancing morality go start your own thread and don't derail this one.
    Done

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post

    And the focus. People at Ceroc weekenders may be less interested in dancing and more in space hoppers (for example). Nothing wrong with that, but nothing wrong with wanting to dance with people more focused on the dancing.

    Maybe you should consider that before blaming the lead
    I think there are a lot less beginners at Jive Addiction events is it wrong to say you prefer that ?

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    Unless you mean women who actually physically can't dance your chosen partner dance (e.g. they have no legs) then saying they can't dance is just plain wrong. One sign of a really good dancer is being able to adjust your own dancing to suit your partner's level, regardless of where that level is. Corollary to that is that one sign of a really good lead is the ability to lead your partner into any given move, within your partner's ability. It's more important that your partner has a good time than that you do. As a lead part of my responsibility is not only to lead my partner through the moves but also to accommodate her (or him) in every respect I can. This isn't just about dancing ability, it extends to physical size (height in particular), tension/frame or lack thereof, comfort, eye contact/smiling and so on. In terms of dancing ability I get more of a warm fuzzy feeling after an off-beat, repetitive, arm-yanking dance of 4 beginners' moves with a new beginner who grins and says "thank you so much, that was brilliant!" than a smooth, connected, varied dance with an experienced follow who obviously doesn't want to be there. Obviously I would prefer to have a smooth dance with someone who is enjoying themselves but the latter part outweighs the former.

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    Unless you mean women who actually physically can't dance your chosen partner dance (e.g. they have no legs) then saying they can't dance is just plain wrong. One sign of a really good dancer is being able to adjust your own dancing to suit your partner's level, regardless of where that level is. Corollary to that is that one sign of a really good lead is the ability to lead your partner into any given move, within your partner's ability. It's more important that your partner has a good time than that you do. As a lead part of my responsibility is not only to lead my partner through the moves but also to accommodate her (or him) in every respect I can. This isn't just about dancing ability, it extends to physical size (height in particular), tension/frame or lack thereof, comfort, eye contact/smiling and so on. In terms of dancing ability I get more of a warm fuzzy feeling after an off-beat, repetitive, arm-yanking dance of 4 beginners' moves with a new beginner who grins and says "thank you so much, that was brilliant!" than a smooth, connected, varied dance with an experienced follow who obviously doesn't want to be there.


    ----------Obviously I would prefer to have a smooth dance with someone who is enjoying themselves but the latter part outweighs the former.
    One large part is theory , im more interested in the reality and should we just say it ?

    For example a friend of mine (doesnt dance any more) went to Southport cira June 2006 and had done 5/6 lessons before.

    I introduced her to cira 11/12 forumite men only one dance with her twice in a row and only he asked her the next day as far as I know none of the other forumites asked her again.

    She was awful and she admits it. Why do we 'pretend' that we do, and dress it up in flowery speech ??

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    not moraly wrong to say it at all

    just that its the hate attude shows the difference between a good social dancer and a hotshot i mean to be honest unless your a world champion or certainly high in the rankings judged by others who have been there and done it i dont think anyone has the right to say others are lesser dancers than them it is surely subjective and most people who think they are great dancers are all to often proved not to be

    CMR had a few great points mainly that you should as a lead know how to dance to your follows ability if that means not being a move monster then so be it

    Lazy dave plummer said one thing to me that sticks in my mind you should put your whole heart into every dance you do you never know how it will turn out (if it all goes terribly wrong hey we are not doing brain surgery no one is going to die) its only three minutes of your life


    end of the day we were all beginners once

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    I hate dancing with women that can't dance,
    Well, who doesn't?

    NickC didn't say he refused dances on this basis or that his feelings would be evident to the followers in question so I don't see why people are so aggrieved.

    I think the issue is in the incomplete phrasing. "can't dance as well as some others" would be less likely to raise the hackles I guess.

    I had lots of good dances at Cerocport and I had lots of good dances at Skegport so my experience seemed to differ from Nick's

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    not moraly wrong to say it at all
    Agreed.

    just that its the hate attude shows the difference between a good social dancer and a hotshot
    There are lots of people I consider good social dancers, and who are enormously encouraging with beginners, but will still admit privately that they don't enjoy dancing with people who can't dance. They might enjoy teaching them, but simply trying to lead/follow when the other person is doing everything wrong isn't much fun.

    And if (as I understand from context) we're talking about people who've literally not done a single lesson before the weekender, people "doing everything wrong" aren't uncommon.

    i mean to be honest unless your a world champion or certainly high in the rankings judged by others who have been there and done it i dont think anyone has the right to say others are lesser dancers than them
    As per your first line, they have the right to say whatever they like. Whether you give their opinion weight is another matter.

    I don't think it's true, anyhow. I've discussed 'problem' dancers with the taxi-dancers at my venue, and very very frequently, they've known exactly who I'm talking about with a brief description of the problem. In other words, at "taxi-dancer level" it's very easy to diagnose some people as 'lesser dancers'. [It should be noted that we're discussing people in the context of "how do you think we can fix this", not "XYZ is teh suck. Let's all fart in her general direction"].

    it is surely subjective and most people who think they are great dancers are all to often proved not to be
    I'm not sure anyone has said they are a great dancer. (Though you and others seem awfully keen to judge what makes a great dancer. Who has the greater hubris?).

    Lazy dave plummer said one thing to me that sticks in my mind you should put your whole heart into every dance you do you never know how it will turn out (if it all goes terribly wrong hey we are not doing brain surgery no one is going to die) its only three minutes of your life
    I don't understand what "putting your whole heart into every dance" is supposed to mean in practical terms. Personally, I don't have the energy to put my whole heart into every dance; not unless I only want to dance two or three times during an evening at any rate.

    Honest truth is that if I'm having trouble getting my partner to follow, then my energy is going to be largely taken up trying to make the dance still 'flow' despite the missed leads, and avoiding collisions. It's not going to leave me the capacity to be particularly inventive, and it's going to make musicality pretty darn difficult as well.

    If that makes me a bad social dancer, fine. But in that case, I have to ask, surely people are allowed to be bad social dancers? I mean, Mario Robau really is one of the best social dancers in the frickin' world. And he said he'd give up his two US Open titles for the ability to dance well socially with any woman on the floor. If he can't do it, aren't you setting impossible standards for the rest of us?

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    One sign of a really good dancer is being able to adjust your own dancing to suit your partner's level, regardless of where that level is.
    That doesn’t necessarily mean they have to enjoy needing to adjust their level too much though.

    Corollary to that is that one sign of a really good lead is the ability to lead your partner into any given move, within your partner's ability.
    That last clause renders the first one irrelevant. You’re essentially saying that the skill of the lead is determined entirely by the ability of the follower. This is rubbish in my opinion.

    It's more important that your partner has a good time than that you do.
    Why?
    Social dancing is all about getting out there and having a good time, and I’m certainly not advocating taking a completely selfish approach towards it. If we’re not enjoying ourselves though, why would we keep coming back for more? I’ll dance with a few beginners in any given evening and try to encourage them and give them a good time because it’s a nice thing to do for someone, because I was a beginner once too and remember how much it meant to me when someone a lot more advanced asked me, and because it’s good for the community in general. Being completely honest those dances are rarely the highlight of my evening however, and if I only danced with beginners I think I’d be ready to shoot myself by the end of the evening…..

    In terms of dancing ability I get more of a warm fuzzy feeling after an off-beat, repetitive, arm-yanking dance of 4 beginners' moves with a new beginner who grins and says "thank you so much, that was brilliant!" than a smooth, connected, varied dance with an experienced follow who obviously doesn't want to be there. Obviously I would prefer to have a smooth dance with someone who is enjoying themselves but the latter part outweighs the former.
    Which is all fair enough, and for what it’s worth I agree with you here. I’d much rather be dancing with someone who wanted to be dancing with me than someone who’d rather be anywhere else.

    That doesn’t change the fact that I won’t terribly enjoy dancing with someone who back leads, is off-time, yanks, has bad breath and a remarkable knack for stepping on my feet all the time somehow. Sometimes I will dance with people who do some of these things, because they deserve a chance just like everyone else does, but again….I probably won’t really enjoy doing it. I refuse to feel guilty for admitting that in public either.

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Eclipse Skegness June 2009 - The Aftermath

    Originally Posted by NickC
    I hated what ceroc did to JA, but had to go to Southport, and compared to JA it was crap, the dancers were poor and I hate dancing with women that can't dance
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Froggy
    Well considering modern jive is a male lead dance perhaps you should take a look at yourself before blaming the follow, it may just have been that they 'can't dance' with you!!
    Originally Posted by Frodo
    As far as I can see he isn't blaming the follow, or saying it is modern jive for that matter.
    The way I read NickC's post he is blaming the followers. You cannot be much clearer than

    "the dancers were poor and I hate dancing with women that can't dance"

    but not only do I agree with the sentiment's Froggy's comments on that post convey. NickC's post itself is completely wrong. Remembeing my dances at Southport, I reckon there was at least 30 outstanding dancers from this forum at Southport and at at least twice that number and if not more non forumites. Add to that the large number of lady teachers that danced in all the rooms at Southport (which you never get on a JA weekender) the dancing there was fabulous.

    There is still a big gulf, including this event, between the quality of the classes (in terms of technique) at Jive Addiction and Ceroc weekenders
    .

    My friend who is a workshop fanatic agrees with you but this no way justifies NIckC 's comments on the quality of the women dancers.


    And the focus. People at Ceroc weekenders may be less interested in dancing and more in space hoppers (for example). Nothing wrong with that, but nothing wrong with wanting to dance with people more focused on the dancing.
    And I suppose the funfair, cabarets etc did nothing to distract the dancers at Skegness.

    Maybe you should consider that before blaming the lead
    In my opinion your defence of NickC's post does not stand up to scutiny because not only are the sentiments wrong but the statement as a whole is factually wrong as well. Just for the record I found the vast majority of women dancers at Southport ranging from good to exceptional. I only danced with one guy, Scarface, well he ...........did not dance like the ladies.
    Last edited by ant; 23rd-June-2009 at 12:35 AM.

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    Dancing is a conversation. If you don't speak the same language, the conversation is not very fulfilling. Similarly, the conversation you can have with someone who only speaks a few words of your language, is going to be very limited, compared with someone who who loves the same films as you.

    For me, there are five things that I really struggle with in a follow:
    • No frame
    • Can't spin (on a beat)
    • Gripping with the thumbs
    • Fighting or resisting the lead
    • Backleading or preempting the move (usually wrongly: my choice of moves is fairly atypical and I use a lot of variations)
    If someone has a couple of these things, I find it extremely hard to dance with them. I'm not saying I can't dance with them or lead them, just that I feel like I'm spending all my time trying to work around those issues rather than being free to dance properly (and on occasion, they actually hurt). It's more like an argument, than a conversation. I don't mind the occasional argument, but it's not why I get on the dance floor. And it means that my attention is managing my partner rather than dancing with them.

    None of these things have much to do with whether someone's a beginner or not: if someone's new, I'm a lot more forgiving (although you can usually spot early on if the raw material's there; if it's not, then they will need to put a lot of work in to break those habits). Nor do I expect anyone to be perfect: we all have things to work on in our dancing. And even if we're good at something, we can slip up often enough. And the first time I dance with anyone, it takes a bit of getting used to (some people I do that with far more quickly than others).

    Personally, I dance to enjoy myself. I put a lot of effort and energy into my dancing. With some partners that effort's all directed to trying to manage them. I'll do this, but it's not particularly fun. With others, it's all directed into them and the dance: I'm leading and they're following and we're both working the music. We're both speaking the same language and chatting away happily on a subject we enjoy. On occasion, everything (me, them, the music, the floor and so on) all click and you have that near-perfect dance.

    At some venues, there are a lot of people I have to manage and few that I can lead. At other venues, I can spend the whole night leading and dancing rather than fighting through the night. So I quite happily will judge a venue on the quality of the people that I regularly see at that venue.

    I'm more than happy to admit this. According to some, that reflects on me, making me either a bad person or a bad dancer (or both). If that's the case, don't ask me to dance with you or turn me down if I ask you. I promise I won't be offended.

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    Is it morally wrong? Generally, I'd say 'no', but neither is it overly generous.

    And, bearing in mind that we were all beginners once, I would argue that we have a moral responsibility to be part of the learning process for, at least a few, beginners. The beauty of this is that I will get on better than some with some beginners, and not with others. And so, hopefully, all bases get covered.

    But I certainly would not advocate placing this aim/objective over personal enjoyment

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    Re: Eclipse Skegness June 2009 - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    but not only do I agree with the sentiment's Froggy's comments on that post convey. NickC's post itself is completely wrong.
    No it isn't. You think it is because you have a different opinion, but that doesn't make NickCs opinion wrong.

    Remembeing my dances at Southport, I reckon there was at least 30 outstanding dancers from this forum at Southport and at at least twice that number and if not more non forumites.
    What makes an "outstanding" dancer to you ? Perhaps it is different for other people? Perhaps NickC danced in one area and has a different view...

    Add to that the large number of lady teachers that danced in all the rooms at Southport (which you never get on a JA weekender) the dancing there was fabulous.
    Now you are making stuff up to bolster your disagreement with NickC - having been to several Southports run by JA, I have danced with Lady teachers in every room.

    My friend who is a workshop fanatic agrees with you but this no way justifies NIckC 's comments on the quality of the women dancers.
    It's only an opinion - it may well be that the women that "can't dance", can dance perfectly well with everyone other than NickC, but an opinion is a personal point of view. And maybe the dancers you think are "outstanding" are very poor and only seem "outstanding" to you

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    That last clause renders the first one irrelevant. You’re essentially saying that the skill of the lead is determined entirely by the ability of the follower. This is rubbish in my opinion.
    What I meant was that for example, a good intermediate dancer should have no problems leading beginners' moves, and in fact should be able to lead them well enough that a brand new follow can follow them reasonably well. Just because the lead in this case can do lots of funky intermediate moves doesn't mean that they would be appropriate for that dance with that follow, so the lead has to adjust their moves to fit the follow's ability if the follow is much less experienced. It may not be as enjoyable a dance as one with a really good follow, but as you said yourself it's vital for beginners to get dances like that to build their confidence up and to improve their own dancing.

    I'm not advocating going and seeking out beginners as a sort of martyrdom of dancing, and you're quite right about dancing all night with beginners getting tedious - I'm a taxi dancer so I know that feeling all too well! It's a great feeling after a night of bashing through 3 moves with beginners to get up for a smooth, varied, connected dance with a good follow who enjoys herself. However, I stand by what I said before - I would rather have a "bad" dance with a beginner who is trying hard and enjoying herself than a "good" dance with a lady who makes no effort and isn't interested. It's very very rare that I've actually encountered a lady who makes me think "flipping 'eck, she's awful" - and funnily enough it's not always beginners who inspire this reaction.

    Viewing this from the other side, I used to go to Marc & Rachel's Milton Keynes class when I started dancing, and on my third week elbowed Rachel in the face, really quite hard, while trying to do a shoulder drop! She was really gracious despite it obviously having hurt quite a lot, forgave me and we danced again lots of times after that - if I hadn't been treated so well I might not have carried on dancing, I was that mortified. This is why it's really important to be forgiving and gentle with beginners, no matter how dreadful they are at the start!

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    I'm a big fan of honesty - I think it makes life a lot simpler. How someone feels is how they feel - it's not wrong or right.

    If it was tennis or chess we wouldn't be worried about saying we'd rather do it with someone of a similar level - but dancing is social so it all gets a bit complicated.

    Defining 'numties' is a bit tricky too - my idea of a bad dancer might not be the same as someone else's. Personally I'm quite happy to dance with a beginner who is only leading 3 or 4 moves as long as they aren't yanking me about.

    But there are some very experienced leaders around who I can't stand because they push/pull - but other followers don't seem to mind.

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    Registered User NickC's Avatar
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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    Can I set the record straight,
    Its the ones to whom the words have you noticed something in the background, its called music, it has a beat to it and you move your feet to the beat that are applicable, I would only turn a woman down if she had bad B.O. ( but never have yet)
    Oh and worse than dancing with an incompetant is dancing with a brilliant dancer who can't be bothered cos its only me, because I hate that so much I do try to look like i'm enjoying it when dancing with a poor dancer.
    Oh and I have herd the words "we go out late as thats when the good dancers come out" spoken before.
    So there you go I will dance with anyone, but might not ask everyone,I'm often too honest and it gets me into trouble, but what the hell
    Nick

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    Quote Originally Posted by NickC View Post
    So there you go I will dance with anyone, but might not ask everyone,I'm often too honest and it gets me into trouble, but what the hell
    Nick
    Ignore the people taking the moral highground, they are numpties and think they are perfect

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I don't understand what "putting your whole heart into every dance" is supposed to mean in practical terms. Personally, I don't have the energy to put my whole heart into every dance; not unless I only want to dance two or three times during an evening at any rate.
    In Arthur's at Skeggy on Saturday night, I was there from about half 9 to half 11. I decided I would put my "heart and soul" into every dance. And I did. My whole self. I had a couple of dances with someone with my level of experience, and many with follows less experienced.

    But, I did it. I gave my heart and soul in every dance and I gave my partner what I hoped was my best dance that I could manage at that time.

    It neary killed me!!

    But, it was fantastic. It was my most pleasurable freestyle in forever. Yes, it left me shattered and not as capable as I would have liked for Jaks later in the morning... but it was just incredible. OK, my moves aren't that complicated anyway.... I just do as much as I can to features withing the song... Feeling so connected, so alive, irrespective of my partners' experiences was amazing... I left on such a high...

    I thoroughly recommend the notion. But just not too often!!! It's physically, emotionally and mentally draining... but WOW.

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    No I don’t think it is morally wrong not to want to dance with a particular person but it’s how you go about not dancing that can be the problem. Just because you (abstract you) don’t feel them worthy of you’re time does not mean that their feelings should be dismissed. I think we all dance better with some people than we do others.

    I must say that I hate the expression numpties, just hate the labelling of people in this superior manner

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    Is it morally wrong? Generally, I'd say 'no', but neither is it overly generous.

    And, bearing in mind that we were all beginners once...
    But in my experience the "fights" are normally not with beginners but with the intermediates...

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    Quote Originally Posted by NickC View Post
    Can I set the record straight,
    Its the ones to whom the words have you noticed something in the background, its called music, it has a beat to it and you move your feet to the beat that are applicable, I would only turn a woman down if she had bad B.O. ( but never have yet)
    Oh and worse than dancing with an incompetant is dancing with a brilliant dancer who can't be bothered cos its only me, because I hate that so much I do try to look like i'm enjoying it when dancing with a poor dancer.
    Oh and I have herd the words "we go out late as thats when the good dancers come out" spoken before.
    So there you go I will dance with anyone, but might not ask everyone,I'm often too honest and it gets me into trouble, but what the hell
    Nick

    Well if it's honesty you want I can tell you that from what you have said and the way you have said it, you should be someone people are advised to steer clear of - which should suit you down to the ground.

    It's also my experience of many people on this Forum that the ones who complain about every one else and like to go into immense technical detail about 'how' to dance are generally pretty poor dancers themselves.

    But please come up and introduce yourself and then we'll have a look see at how competent or incompetent you really are.

    IMO there is no such thing as a woman who can't dance, only men who can't, or refuse to, compensate for their partners ability level. I also don't believe it's wrong to admit that one doesn't enjoy dancing with people who area a challenge to dance with - that's just human nature. But we were all beginners once and I've lost count of the number of beginner ladies who've I danced with over the years who I really believed would never grasp it, and yet who have gone on to become very competent dancers in their own right - and that can only have happened by their determination and the goodwill and patience of those leads who don't consider themselves above dancing with follows less capable than themselves.

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    Re: Is it morally wrong saying you dont like dancing with numties ?

    I don't think it's mean to say it. It's clearly honest and we're all entitled to express an opinion, but I do think it's the wrong attitude and I also think you should be careful who you say it to. IMHO, all experienced dancers have a moral obligation to dance with less experienced people. We were all beginners at one point and only progressed because we had the benefit of spending time with better dancers. I can't even begin to describe the pleasure I get from dancing, and it upsets me when I hear of somebody not encouraging others. People give up for one reason or another all the time, so it's in our own interests to bring on the next generation of dancers to keep our passion alive.

    While I'm no expert, I think I'm finally starting to get the hang of this whole dancing thing and I love to challenge myself by dancing with more advanced partners. I'm lucky enough to compete with the gorgeous Happy B and I have learned so much from her. I've finally reached that elusive point where I don't fear dancing with anyone, no matter how experienced, but to be perfectly honest, I still enjoy dancing with beginners (especially if they're REALLY hot!! ). It's amazing what you can learn and how much faster you will improve your own lead if you absolutely have to get the move right so that the follower will follow. Everything makes a difference when you dance; height, shape, ability, tension, clothing, shoes, floor, styling, etc... When you put two really good dancers together they should automatically adapt and compensate for the other, but put a couple of beginners together, or even just a beginner with a poor lead and you end up with car crash dancing. It might be a bit controversial, but I would suggest that the reason somebody doesn't enjoy dancing with beginners is because they are not quite at a level where they are competent to do so.

    I have had some great dances with people who are at their first lesson, but I have also had some terrible dances with so called 'elite' dancers. I like to dance with as many people as possible when I'm on a weekender, but it's impossible to get round everyone. I'm a bit rubbish at asking people, as I'm generally absorbed in my own alcohol fuelled bubble, but I almost never turn down a dance when asked. I do try to make a point of dancing with a few beginners whenever I am at a class, though. I know it's hard to remember for most of us how intimidating it can be on your first night in a class, but most people are way out of their comfort zone and their confidence is already on edge. We take the intimacy and connection of dancing for granted, but for an outsider it can be terrifying. If somebody in that situation heard a statement like, "I hate dancing with women that can't dance", the chances are that it would put them off for life and I don't think it's fair to deny people the pleasure that we all get from dancing. You can argue that you're there to enjoy yourself, you've paid your money and you'll do what you like, but that's just selfish and not the ethos we should be projecting as experienced dancers.

    Anyway, rant over. Too much thinking. I'm going to lie down...

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