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Thread: Raw talent or hard work ?

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Raw talent or hard work ?

    Lets assume you were a 'average' dancer and had a £100m to spend on the best dance trainers in the world , how far could you go ?

    Is it 50% talent and 50% work ?

    If I spent £100m could I get to the 4th round of the lucky dip ceroc champs ? Assuming next year I remember what day its on ?

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    Re: Raw talent or hard work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    If I spent £100m could I get to the 4th round of the lucky dip ceroc champs ? Assuming next year I remember what day its on ?
    I can't believe you did that Stewart, or rather didn't.

    Did you get your money back?


    I'd have one on one tuition from some male teachers, 3 pop into my mind - one MJ, one Tango and one WCS.

    Then I would attend a lot more weekenders, competitions and dance abroad too.

    Widen my horizons.
    Last edited by Astro; 20th-May-2009 at 02:22 PM.

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    Re: Raw talent or hard work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Lets assume you were a 'average' dancer and had a £100m to spend on the best dance trainers in the world , how far could you go ?
    I have some magical dance trainers to sell you - only £500 and they're yours

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    Re: Raw talent or hard work ?

    Nature nurture once again.

    You will get the people who tell you it's all about how much effort you put in ("give me the boy until he is five and I will show you the man..."). At some point, you'll get 10,000 hours quoted to you.

    You may get a few people who talk about genetic determinism - evolutionary psychology or the like.

    If you're very lucky then you will get a few people who actually know the research and tell you that nature and nurture - talent and effort, in your words - interact together strongly. This is particularly evident in high-performance fields.

    In terms of dancing performance... I could spend a year doing nothing but dancing training with the best instructors and become a much better dancer than I am now. Someone with less natural dancing talent than I would probably not improve as much doing the same thing. Someone with more natural talent would probably improve a lot more. That's all pretty simple.

    Where it gets more complicated is that someone with more talent is more likely to put the time, money and effort in to improving than someone without the natural talent.

    One of the best examples of this is Dan Carter - the All Black's incumbant first five (and probably the best in the world). He was spotted young as a prodigious talent and his parents were rugby fans. As a result, he started training young, got good coaching, was sent to the right schools, and played in the right teams.

    He also has the character and attitude that meant when young he put in the hours on his own: he grew up next to some friends of my parents': most evenings when he wasn't in team training, he was practising in the local park. One could easily argue that this attitude was a product both of genetic predisposition as well as the way he was raised and the person he has become.

    He is certainly naturally talented, but he's also put in a lot of hours and it's the two together that have made him the best (unless he gets injured by the French).

    My experience of ballroom is very similar: some people are naturally better than others. Those who are naturally better are far, far more likely to put the effort in. And when you get both together, you get a star. And being a star attracts better and better teachers and so the cycle continues.

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    Re: Raw talent or hard work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I have some magical dance trainers to sell you - only £500 and they're yours
    Too much, you can have my old size 10 Blochs for 20 quid

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    Re: Raw talent or hard work ?

    I am strangely reminded of this incident from a couple of years back.

    [disclaimer]If I were harder-working, or especially talented, I might be able to answer your question with some shred of credibility. As it is, I'll just pretend [/disclaimer]

    Actually - I'm not so keen on the original question, so I'm going to be annoying and answer a slightly different one . Are people limited by the amount of innate talent that they possess, or, with the proper tuition and enough hard work, can they get past that?

    Personally, I think that few people ever approach their limits, through lack of resources, opportunity, application, motivation, or some combination of the four. If someone put themselves completely in the hands of the best trainers in the world most suited to them, and enough hard graft in to capitalise on that.... I think they'd have half a chance of finding out what those limits were...

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    Re: Raw talent or hard work ?

    As far as BA
    but we have some very teachers in the UK

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    Re: Raw talent or hard work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Lets assume you were a 'average' dancer and had a £100m to spend on the best dance trainers in the world , how far could you go ?
    I would suggest further than you'd think but in more time than you'd think. Assuming of course you put the work in - 20hrs practice a week and fairly good trainers will probably get you further than the best instruction in the world and training for 2hrs a week. Great instructors and £100m won't produce miracles by itself (although it's probably enough to bribe the judges with to win any competition you're that serious about ).

    That's based on the experiences of a few people I know who have given up jobs to concentrate on their chosen sport or dance full-time. Admittedly these people weren't exactly at novice or 'average' level in the first place...

    Some things just take time anyway (e.g. improving your balance is more a matter of continuous practice than anything else) and of course less natural talent tends to mean slower progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    If I spent £100m could I get to the 4th round of the lucky dip ceroc champs ? Assuming next year I remember what day its on ?
    In a year, possibly not (based on no knowledge whatsoever of your current
    level of dancing or talent). In 5 years of serious training, almost definitely yes.

    FunkyAngel

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    Registered User Miss Flicts's Avatar
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    Re: Raw talent or hard work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Nature nurture once again.

    You will get the people who tell you it's all about how much effort you put in ("give me the boy until he is five and I will show you the man..."). At some point, you'll get 10,000 hours quoted to you.

    You may get a few people who talk about genetic determinism - evolutionary psychology or the like.

    If you're very lucky then you will get a few people who actually know the research and tell you that nature and nurture - talent and effort, in your words - interact together strongly. This is particularly evident in high-performance fields.

    In terms of dancing performance... I could spend a year doing nothing but dancing training with the best instructors and become a much better dancer than I am now. Someone with less natural dancing talent than I would probably not improve as much doing the same thing. Someone with more natural talent would probably improve a lot more. That's all pretty simple.

    Where it gets more complicated is that someone with more talent is more likely to put the time, money and effort in to improving than someone without the natural talent.

    One of the best examples of this is Dan Carter - the All Black's incumbant first five (and probably the best in the world). He was spotted young as a prodigious talent and his parents were rugby fans. As a result, he started training young, got good coaching, was sent to the right schools, and played in the right teams.

    He also has the character and attitude that meant when young he put in the hours on his own: he grew up next to some friends of my parents': most evenings when he wasn't in team training, he was practising in the local park. One could easily argue that this attitude was a product both of genetic predisposition as well as the way he was raised and the person he has become.

    He is certainly naturally talented, but he's also put in a lot of hours and it's the two together that have made him the best (unless he gets injured by the French).

    My experience of ballroom is very similar: some people are naturally better than others. Those who are naturally better are far, far more likely to put the effort in. And when you get both together, you get a star. And being a star attracts better and better teachers and so the cycle continues.
    Great post. Someone with little or no natural talent will improve vastly with a lot of intensive training, but I'm not sure any amount of training can make up for lack of natural talent. Just look at Strictly etc - they all get weeks of similar top-level intensive training and improve a lot, but the ones who can't dance at the beginning still can't really dance at the end.

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    Re: Raw talent or hard work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Flicts View Post
    but the ones who can't dance at the beginning still can't really dance at the end.
    Which is probably because the ones who can't dance at the beginning usually never get anywhere near the end...

    Regardless - Darren Gough was hardly amazing at the beginning, iirc...

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    Re: Raw talent or hard work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyAngel View Post
    I would suggest further than you'd think but in more time than you'd think. Assuming of course you put the work in - 20hrs practice a week and fairly good trainers will probably get you further than the best instruction in the world and training for 2hrs a week. Great instructors and £100m won't produce miracles by itself (although it's probably enough to bribe the judges with to win any competition you're that serious about ).

    That's based on the experiences of a few people I know who have given up jobs to concentrate on their chosen sport or dance full-time. Admittedly these people weren't exactly at novice or 'average' level in the first place...

    Some things just take time anyway (e.g. improving your balance is more a matter of continuous practice than anything else) and of course less natural talent tends to mean slower progression.


    As Geoff has pointed out, success and ability are influenced by a lot of factor in sometimes very complex ways. Sometimes those factors are well outside the individuals control.

    Much like FunkyAngel, I tend to think of talent as some sort of multiplier. Practice and the right coaching will make anyone improve. In fact just that particular combination of factors can make anyone improve dramatically in a relatively short period of time. Talent will make those improvements happen more quickly, which given the same amount of effort and coaching means it’ll take you further than the guy without as much talent in the same amount of time. SCD is a great example of somewhere that you can see this in action. In less optimal circumstances, someone with a lot of talent will tend to get more out of whatever limited opportunities they have to work with.

    It works the other way as well – we tend to focus on our strengths rather than our weaknesses, so those with talent tend to put more effort in from the beginning. It becomes a positively reinforcing cycle for that person. I’m sure we can all think of a dancer or two who outstripped most intermediates in just a few months of dancing.

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    Re: Raw talent or hard work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    ...If I spent £100m could I get to the 4th round of the lucky dip ceroc champs ? Assuming next year I remember what day its on ?
    For that money you could buy the champs, and be placed wherever you pleased.

    Am I missing something? Doesn't it depend on what partner you get?

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    Re: Raw talent or hard work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I can't believe you did that Stewart, or rather didn't.

    Did you get your money back?


    My letter

    Dear Sir,

    I received your tickets for the Sunday champs on the Tuesday before the champs. I would like my money back as I blame you for the **** up.

    On the Sunday I was down in Bournemouth visiting family, the tickets were 120 miles away in north Oxford at home. From there its another 70 miles to the dance venue in London.

    At 10am on Sunday morning (in Bournemouth) I said to my partner don't worry we can dance till the very end as the next day is a bank holiday ie no work. Followed by **** **** check internet yes it was on that Sunday.

    I could have driven 210 miles got there 1pm ish but I prefer to moan all day to the family in Bournemouth.

    ps can I have my money back and lucky dip entry (sorry to the female waiting for me).

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    As far as BA
    but we have some very teachers in the UK
    Sorry this doesnt appear to be stewart38 anyone know what language this is ?

    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyAngel View Post

    In a year, possibly not (based on no knowledge whatsoever of your current
    level of dancing or talent). In 5 years of serious training, almost definitely yes.

    FunkyAngel
    I often get to third round and once to the fourth round with a well known dance teacher form Daventry

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