I think StrictlyWestie is doing something nasty with internal state (possibly using cookies), so that when you go to the second page of a thread, the URL becomes essentially "strictlywestie/page=2". That is, the URL in such a scenario doesn't actually specify a thread at all! (It's something like the 2nd page of whatever thread you were reading most recently).
I believe (hope) that this link will work better:
http://www.strictlywestie.com/forums...1&topicid=3048
it does mean you end up at the "end" of the discussion, due to SW's retarded decision to make you read all threads backwards.
[The SW forum revamp really p1sses me off. It used to be a really good, interesting forum. Then they reworked it so they could change people money to post about events (with clear internal visions of being the dance equivalent of facebook). Since then, traffic has probably dropped over 90%, but the site owners still think what they've done is an improvement. If what you want is to make money, possibly it is. The community has died, however].
Ah found it
I think it was one we done at a fitness weekender. The vid was removed and I don't have the orig to post back up.
Lol at the spinning comment though. Me, Jamie and Alex F were in the vid so it could have been any one of us (or all three )
On a side note, It was interesting to read that some WCS dancers think that WCS is going the way of MJ when there are several of us pushing MJ in the way of WCS. Maybe one day they will meet in the middle and there will be no difference between them
We teach what Alan refers to as the Three T's in our SJ classes. I firmly belive that dancers should be taught how to dance rather than just how to do moves.
Am I just that age - when Alan mentions Skippy all I can think of is 'the Bush Kangaroo'.
OK Alan, show and tell time.
Let's see an example of the Universal Unit System for one of the MJ beginner moves - how about the Octopus - and then use this to justify your comments above (RobD might even be happy for you to show us the UUS in action in a video). I've never detected any difficulty in learning MJ, and it doesn't seem to take a long time so I'm intrigued how UUS can truly be quicker and easier than something that seems very quick and easy already!
Back to the point though, your three Ts are important in learning to dance as opposed to going through moves by rote. My local venue already does a good job with this by mixing extra messages in around the moves but I'd be keen for you to explain how the UUS can add something additional.
Agent 000
Licensed to Dance
Just because it is on Strictly Westie does not make it a better or worse opinion by default. Additionally there is a great of debate going through every level on what is right and wrong with WCS currently.
Does appear that way but then a lot of the pros do that and have been slapped on the wrist for doing it and many still continue. Just thought that is not me justifying anyone not taking a comp seriously.First of all – this is a single J&J clip from a competition that neither of them seem to be taking that seriously.
No I am just saying that I appreciate that they are exploring the dance and having fun. Yes there are lines that are crossed. Sometimes I would rather see dancers pushing the boundries.Your point of view does raise an interesting question though. Essentially you’re saying that because they’re good (or perhaps it’s just that they’re famous) dancers they should be able to get away with things that “lesser” dancers wouldn’t be allowed to. At least that’s the case in competition where these things matter.
But they would probably win all the same. And that would not be on reputation. Kyle and Sarah are very, very focused on keeping the integrity of Swing. Plus I have seen many a dancer win Novice competitions while not dancing some of the requirements of the Novice division. The reasons they won were evident and on merit. Having spoken to judges at some of the American comps and asked for advice I have begun to understand what does well and what doesn't.I would think that if Kyle and Sarah jumped into a novice competition and danced exactly the way they normally do they should probably not win according to the judging criteria.
Not sure what you mean by the 'especially lead and follow' comment regarding the 3 T's. Would you explain it again please. I can't see top end dancers doing well in a Strictly without any of the 3 T's. What part is being stretched for showmanship. When I first started learning WCS I watched the Strictly's amoungst other comps and watched their timing and teamwork and technique and as time goes on and still now am amazed how they apply those 3 elements to a pro level.I can see the reasoning for having different criteria at different levels, but I think in practice what happens is that sometimes the “3 T’s” (especially lead and follow) really are being stretched a little in favour of showmanship at the top end. Even J&T bought their current routine more into line with traditional swing values this year and have been pushing the introduction of a formal set of official basics.
I can't see that much of a difference in the concepts that J&T have used in this years routine. It still pushes some of the concepts of Swing and the shapes and uses of Swing concepts on a competition floor. There is a great deal of case for pushing the idea of what makes Swing a Swing dance. Openly again I welcome what you meant by your comment.
On the double standards idea I can offer part of an explanation. To begin with at Newcomer and Novice level dancers are required to show their understanding for the dance whether it be using triple steps anchoring (with triple steps) and being able to dance with a partner and respect the dance that they are dancing. Once that has been demonstrated it is assumed that at the next level up that because a dancer knows what a triple an anchor and general connection is then they have the knowledge to add and take away elements. As they progress the same concepts apply. Dancing with a room full of Novice to Pro dancers in America you can see how this works on the social floor. WCS is more a social dance than anything else which the numbers will back up. On a social floor I feel at ease with an All-Star dancer (just as an example) that the understanding of the dance and connection etc will mean that we can dance certain things that a true Novice wouldn't. I say true Novice as in Novice, Intermediate etc there are dancers who clearly are moving their way up quickly through the divisions.but I have to admit that it also seems bizarre to me to have double standards in competitions.
No, but it does mean the comments were made by people with some experience with WCS, and not MJ dancers who don’t understand what they’re looking at when they watch youtube clips – which was the implication several of us read in your post.
I did say shouldn’tBut they would probably win all the same. And that would not be on reputation. Kyle and Sarah are very, very focused on keeping the integrity of Swing. Plus I have seen many a dancer win Novice competitions while not dancing some of the requirements of the Novice division. The reasons they won were evident and on merit. Having spoken to judges at some of the American comps and asked for advice I have begun to understand what does well and what doesn't.
I’m thinking specifically of some comments made by Arjay Centano on that same forum (It may have been Westiewire, but I don’t think so), and reinforced by some of the others there who seem to be well known in the USA. I’ll dig the quotes up when I get a chance, but that’s not likely to be until after work tonightNot sure what you mean by the 'especially lead and follow' comment regarding the 3 T's. Would you explain it again please. I can't see top end dancers doing well in a Strictly without any of the 3 T's. What part is being stretched for showmanship. When I first started learning WCS I watched the Strictly's amoungst other comps and watched their timing and teamwork and technique and as time goes on and still now am amazed how they apply those 3 elements to a pro level.
The choreography has much more of an emphasis on the basics, including a unusually large number of absolute basics (is that what they call them? I mean the no-frills beginner versions of side passes and the like) than their previous routines have had. In my opinion it also looks much more like you’d expect social WCS to be like (tricks and incredible skill of J&T aside of course) when compared to any of their last three routines. The overwhelming impression I’ve heard from those I know personally about that particular routine is that it’s very slick, but hasn’t grabbed people the way their previous routines have. That comes from westies and non-westies alike.I can't see that much of a difference in the concepts that J&T have used in this years routine. It still pushes some of the concepts of Swing and the shapes and uses of Swing concepts on a competition floor. There is a great deal of case for pushing the idea of what makes Swing a Swing dance. Openly again I welcome what you meant by your comment.
Considering they’ve got a long history of taking infractions for lack of swing content in the past, and they’ve been extremely influential in the evolution of WCS to what it is today I don’t think its just a co-incidence they’ve done what they have with their newest routine. I wouldn’t exactly call it an about face, but I think they’re trying to lead WCS back a little bit more toward the older values than perhaps it is at the moment (in part thanks to them). Purely speculation on my part at the moment of course.
To go back to my earlier point, if I signed up to a novice competition and danced exactly like Kyle, I doubt I’d win. Or at least I doubt I should win given the judging criteria. If I stopped triple stepping for minutes at a time, danced off the slot for some sort of dramatic effect and showboated everything I could possibly find in the music I wouldn’t be doing a very good job of displaying my solid basics. I’d be doing a great job of showing what an awesome dancer I was, but the judging criteria are a lot more specific than just that.On the double standards idea I can offer part of an explanation. To begin with at Newcomer and Novice level dancers are required to show their understanding for the dance whether it be using triple steps anchoring (with triple steps) and being able to dance with a partner and respect the dance that they are dancing.
Yeah – like I said I can see why it happens. From the outside looking in though it does seem somewhat contradictory. It’s as if you’re telling the novices that they should “respect the dance” by doing X,Y and Z, but then put the Pro’s on the stage doing something that looks quite different. I’m not complaining, just pointing out the inconsistency.Once that has been demonstrated it is assumed that at the next level up that because a dancer knows what a triple an anchor and general connection is then they have the knowledge to add and take away elements. As they progress the same concepts apply.
It turns out that particular post I was talking about was from Westie Wire after all. Here it is in full, and note that he has plenty more to say than just what I was highlighting:
Somewhat tangentially the "anchoring at the end of the slot" thread in the Teacher Talk section shows some very interesting differences of opinion between some of the older (and very well known) dancers and the newer ones.Originally Posted by Arjay
It didn't do a lot for me, but not, I think for the reasons you suggest.
These routines don't live in a vacuum - there is always comparison against prior routines (as you've done yourself). And even subconciously, that affects how we perceive it.
For me, this routine felt like a 'compromised' version of their 2008 routine. The 2008 routine has a very atypical feel for WCS - it's very lyrical, and although it's not 'trick-heavy', there's a lot of nuance (looks and gestures) that doesn't feel socially leadable. I thought it was a fabulous routine, but something that actually belonged more as a cabaret piece than a classic routine.
Moving on to 2009, you have a track which again has a strong lyrical feel, only this time there is also quite a strong driving beat. To my mind, it doesn't work nearly as well as a piece of music (although it is certainly catchy). And I felt the routine reflects this - it seems like J/T are trying to convey deep emotion, but then they get back into dancing to the beat and it's lost. <ObFlashGordan>: "Jordan, I love you! But we only have 14 beats to do a quadruple spin into a behind the back neck drop!"
I agree that it comes across as more socially leadable, but to me this is far less about the number of basics, and far more about the lack of those 'unleadable' nuances.
Just my 2c...
Maybe the judges stateside should come and read this thread to help them
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