Three T's: Timing, Teamwork & Technique

[Alan Doyle]

In your typical modern jive class, is enough being taught about:

Timing
Teamwork
Technique

Do you think the teaching of these can be improved and how would you go about it.

[FoxyFunkster]

In your typical modern jive class, is enough being taught about:

Timing
Teamwork
Technique

Do you think the teaching of these can be improved and how would you go about it.

Hmmmm....good question.

In simple terms if i`m teaching Ceroc then i`ll include some technique, it`s difficult enough teaching 3-4 moves in 30 mins during a regular class night, however in a Weekender hour lesson or a workshop i`ll go into more depth....

If i`m teaching WCS then the 3 T`s are taught in vast quantities as they are the essential components people need to know IMHO.

I`s love to be able to teach more technique at Ceroc but time and class standard constraints prevent this to a degree....

[Phil_dB]

Here's my 0.2p (which in the current climate is probably bugger all, and, as a teacher, i'm sure you know far better than me anyway, but fwiw)



Timing
Definitely not enough being taught on this AFAIC.
Apart from "which part of the movement you need to be on which beat" timing is hardly mentioned. Last week an instructor invited us to play with the timing on one of the moves being taught, which I thought was great, but in her attempt to get accross the message a couple of partners I was with rolled their eyes & laughed as if to say "what is she babbling on about" - personally I wish more was said on this subject.


Technique
Some, but no, not enough is taught on this either IME.
Basic connection is often taught and practiced before teaching the moves at the very start of the beginner lesson... - and yet straight after this exercise I often find myself partnered up with a flimsey armed follow who seemingly hasn't bothered to listen or understand a single word the instructor has been saying. Traversely, - I remember one follow, who, after being told to push her hand against the mans hand to build a degree of tension was FORCEFULLY trying to push me over, (she wasn't playing either) - I couldn't believe it!



How would I go about it? I've been in the occasional class where lots of technique is taught, - basically integrated at the same time of teaching the moves. Eg, instead of saying, "the man moves his hand from A - B", - the instructor would say "the man steps back and places his weight onto his right foot and by keeping some tension in his frame automatically leads the lady backwards through the transfer of his body movement", - by incorporating technique when describing the actual moves it shouldn't take up too much extra time? The same can be said for timing, - just throw in snippets of information / other options / things to think about and be aware of / a little demo of variations, here and there, - the people who want to learn this extra stuff will be listening




Sorry, stupid question, can you give me an example of what is meant by teamwork in a dance context?

[NZ Monkey]

Sorry, stupid question, can you give me an example of what is meant by teamwork in a dance context?

Firstly, I think you'll fine Alan is referring to the judging categories for J&J competitions in WCS with all of this, so that context might be useful.

Secondly, teamwork is the ability to work with your partner. You could look at it as a measure of how evenly balanced the conversation is if you like to view a dance as that particular analogy. Essentially, it's a measure of how much attention you're both paying to each other and you feed off each in the dance.

[Alan Doyle]

Firstly, I think you'll fine Alan is referring to the judging categories for J&J competitions in WCS with all of this, so that context might be useful.

Secondly, teamwork is the ability to work with your partner. You could look at it as a measure of how evenly balanced the conversation is if you like to view a dance as that particular analogy. Essentially, it's a measure of how much attention you're both paying to each other and you feed off each in the dance.

Yes you're right I am referring to this.

The GSDTA & WSDC judge on Timing, Technique, Teamwork, Content & Showmanship

These can be separated into their separate elements:

Timing
- On Downbeat
- Pulsing
- Aware of Breaks
- Degree of Critical Timing (Rolling Count)

Teamwork
- Couple Centering
- Action - Reaction
- Connection
- Compatibility
- Harmonious Adjustment

Technique
- Individual Centering
- Body Alignment
- Foot Placement
- Hand Placement
- Leverage - Compression

Content
- Variety &/or Contrast
- Musical Interpretation
- Continuity & Flow
- Respect: Of partner - and age appropriate attire
- "Essence" of the dance (Dance Identification)
- Opening and Closing

Showmanship
- Charisma - Dynamics
- Energy (Fire)
- Projection
- Entertainment Appeal

At a basic level you're judged on 3 T's (Timing, Technique & Teamwork). If you don't have the basics it doesn't matter how much content &/or Showmanship you have - you need the basics.

Content & Showmanship are judged at higher levels

[CheesyRobMan]

Technique
- Leverage - Compression

How can this be judged?

[Alan Doyle]

How can this be judged?

In the apprentice judging training & teacher training, you learn to separate the elements and eventually integrate all the elements at one time.

but I feel not enough is taught about timing, technique & teamwork in MJ.

[robd]

but I feel not enough is taught about timing, technique & teamwork in MJ.

Hold on, weren't you convinced that applying the rolling count to MJ tuition would be a panacea for all its current deficiencies?

[Alan Doyle]

Hold on, weren't you convinced that applying the rolling count to MJ tuition would be a panacea for all its current deficiencies?

I wouldn't say 'all it's current deficiencies' but it would help. There's a lot that is currently not taught that I think would benefit modern jive.

[David Franklin]

I can't be bothered to find and dig it up, but there was a thread on either StrictlyWestie or WestieWire, partly about "where MJ lies on the WCS spectrum". 4 clips were given, one of which was MJ. People were pretty unanimous in saying MJ "came third". That is, there was a WCS clip that was "less like WCS ought to be than the MJ couples".

Main reason: complete lack of teamwork and communication between the WCS couple. And these were professional dancers, too.

[ducasi]

I wouldn't say 'all it's current deficiencies' but it would help. There's a lot that is currently not taught that I think would benefit modern jive.

How would more emphasis on the "three T's" benefit Modern Jive? While it might make MJ dancers do better in competition, would it increase folks' enjoyment, and classes' retention rates?

[Alan Doyle]

How would more emphasis on the "three T's" benefit Modern Jive? While it might make MJ dancers do better in competition, would it increase folks' enjoyment, and classes' retention rates?

I've changed the way I teach Modern Jive. I teach using Skippy's Universal Unit System.

It makes it easier and quicker to learn but it does have more emphasis on three T's. Lessons should be fun, exciting, and still relaxed and comfortable.

If it makes it easier and quicker to learn while having fun, I think that would benefit MJ.

[NZ Monkey]

I can't be bothered to find and dig it up, but there was a thread on either StrictlyWestie or WestieWire, partly about "where MJ lies on the WCS spectrum". 4 clips were given, one of which was MJ. People were pretty unanimous in saying MJ "came third". That is, there was a WCS clip that was "less like WCS ought to be than the MJ couples".

If you can remember the name of the thread in question I’d be happy to try ferreting it up. It sound like an interesting read.

How would more emphasis on the "three T's" benefit Modern Jive? While it might make MJ dancers do better in competition, would it increase folks' enjoyment, and classes' retention rates?

It’d make things more fun for some, and less so for others. Whether making those changes would be good for the MJ scene as a whole is anyone’s guess. I suspect that it’d work better in some places and would be terrible in others, depending on the personal qualities of the teacher and the expectations of the punters more than any particular teaching methodology.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – a really good teacher can teach technique without it feeling like a chore. I’ve seen it done. The “problem” is that the overwhelming majority of teachers aren’t really good. They’re average. As much as we may like and respect them for what they do, chances are they’re not going to be able to do everything well.

In my experience it takes someone with a very acute awareness of technique and communication to deliver the essence of it in small, easily understandable chunks. If you don’t have both may well end up doing more harm than good. I suspect that’s why so many “technique focused” MJ classes have failed.

[David Franklin]

If you can remember the name of the thread in question I’d be happy to try ferreting it up. It sound like an interesting read.

Ha! If I could remember the name of the thread I'd have ferreted it up myself! No idea on the thread name (I don't think it started as a MJ/WCS discussion), no real idea what you might even try to search on.

I remember that the MJ clip had 3 or 4 couples, one of which was Woodface, and that the "bad" WCS clip had a fairly young couple. (I think this might be the WCS performance in question: ).

Thinking a bit more about it, my memory is saying "StrictyWestie" but also thinking it was in their "old" bulletin board format (that looked like vBulletin or whatever, as opposed to their customised "you can only read things in the reverse" piece of cr1p that they have now). In which case you'd have to somehow search their archives.

[Caro]

Ha! If I could remember the name of the thread I'd have ferreted it up myself! No idea on the thread name (I don't think it started as a MJ/WCS discussion), no real idea what you might even try to search on.

(...)
Thinking a bit more about it, my memory is saying "StrictyWestie" but also thinking it was in their "old" bulletin board format (that looked like vBulletin or whatever, as opposed to their customised "you can only read things in the reverse" piece of cr1p that they have now). In which case you'd have to somehow search their archives.

I think it was on strictly westie, on a thread talking about swing content... if I remember well it was sometime after BbB 2007. Possibly even after april 2008 as I remember thinking at the time about something Kyle had said at the UK champs, something about the fact that MJ could possibly be included in the definition of swing.

[Geordieed]

I remember that the MJ clip had 3 or 4 couples, one of which was Woodface, and that the "bad" WCS clip had a fairly young couple. (I think this might be the WCS performance in question: ).

It is not really fair to comment on things if you don't understand what is in front of you. Knowing the progression and understanding of both dancers in the clip within Swing and are incredibly well known on the Swing circuit would help. If MJ dancers have seen a lot of YouTube footage and base what this clips shows against that then yes it does not fit with the programme. Pete as a dancer and his quest for knowledge is pretty evident if you have been doing Swing for some time. Lacy is also experiementing within her progression as a dancer. Looking at the clip they play so much and push the boundries within their dance to the point that they loose connection a few times in the first half of the dance.

Knowing that these two are pretty special dancers and that they will be even more special for the work that they put in then I can overlook what is in this clip as a work in progress. They challenge their knowledge and the dance. Pete and Lacy have danced too many hours dancing together. Put it another way you can see the chemistry they have in the dance together. The timing is still respected. The technique is being used to challenge the teamwork that they are putting into the dance. Pete Green is known for being an amazing dancer and an incredible lead in the States. Lacy's acheivements both on TV and on the competition floor speaks for itself.

Then again if you don't know of these guys you may get lost on what you see in front of you as with my original statement.

[David Franklin]

It is not really fair to comment on things if you don't understand what is in front of you.

I hope that wasn't directed at me, because I think I've made it fairly clear that I am merely relaying the comments of WCS posters on StrictlyWestie/WestieWire (which are WCS specific forums).

Knowing the progression and understanding of both dancers in the clip within Swing and are incredibly well known on the Swing circuit would help. If MJ dancers have seen a lot of YouTube footage and base what this clips shows against that then yes it does not fit with the programme. Pete as a dancer and his quest for knowledge is pretty evident if you have been doing Swing for some time. Lacy is also experiementing within her progression as a dancer. Looking at the clip they play so much and push the boundries within their dance to the point that they loose connection a few times in the first half of the dance.

The specific argument being made was a lack of teamwork. So yes, the lost connection was an issue, but more in a context of "Standing there strutting your funky stuff while your partner is standing there wondering where your hand went isn't teamwork".

Personally it hadn't bothered me, but once it was pointed out (by these WCS dancers), I could see where they were coming from. If nothing else, it emphases how subjective a lot of this stuff can be.

[NZ Monkey]

It is not really fair to comment on things if you don't understand what is in front of you. Knowing the progression and understanding of both dancers in the clip within Swing and are incredibly well known on the Swing circuit would help. If MJ dancers have seen a lot of YouTube footage and base what this clips shows against that then yes it does not fit with the programme.

As David Franklin has pointed out it was WCS dancers making the observations. If it really was on Strictly Westie then odds are it was someone quite involved in the WCS scene in the USA making them.

Pete as a dancer and his quest for knowledge is pretty evident if you have been doing Swing for some time. Lacy is also experiementing within her progression as a dancer. Looking at the clip they play so much and push the boundries within their dance to the point that they loose connection a few times in the first half of the dance.

Yeah, but if you really value connection then that’s a pretty serious lapse. If you’re being judged on your connection then you’ll be punished for things like that.

Knowing that these two are pretty special dancers and that they will be even more special for the work that they put in then I can overlook what is in this clip as a work in progress. They challenge their knowledge and the dance. Pete and Lacy have danced too many hours dancing together. Put it another way you can see the chemistry they have in the dance together. The timing is still respected. The technique is being used to challenge the teamwork that they are putting into the dance. Pete Green is known for being an amazing dancer and an incredible lead in the States. Lacy's acheivements both on TV and on the competition floor speaks for itself.

First of all – this is a single J&J clip from a competition that neither of them seem to be taking that seriously. I very much doubt that the use of that clip was intended as some sort of attack on either Pete or Lacey, but rather that it was used because it illustrated some general point whoever posted it was trying to make. Pete and Lacey don’t need defending because nobody is really attacking them.

Your point of view does raise an interesting question though. Essentially you’re saying that because they’re good (or perhaps it’s just that they’re famous) dancers they should be able to get away with things that “lesser” dancers wouldn’t be allowed to. At least that’s the case in competition where these things matter.

I know that the WCS competitions do this deliberately. Alan Boyle has posted the judging criteria for J&J comps above, and we can see that there are categories in the judging that only apply to higher levels. It seems to me that in practice those extra categories carry more weight than the “3 T’s” for those competitions. I would think that if Kyle and Sarah jumped into a novice competition and danced exactly the way they normally do they should probably not win according to the judging criteria.

That isn’t a suggestion that their basics aren’t good, which would be crazy. It’s a suggestion that what the judges are looking for is very solid vanilla flavored WCS at that level, and K&S don’t match any description that involves the word vanilla to my mind.

I can see the reasoning for having different criteria at different levels, but I think in practice what happens is that sometimes the “3 T’s” (especially lead and follow) really are being stretched a little in favour of showmanship at the top end. From what I’ve read online over the last year it seems many of the judges and the GSDTA seem to think the same thing. Even J&T bought their current routine more into line with traditional swing values this year and have been pushing the introduction of a formal set of official basics.

Personally I don’t mind the emphasis on showmanship because the top guns are good enough to make it work and provide me with many more entertaining Youtube clips, but I have to admit that it also seems bizarre to me to have double standards in competitions.

[NZ Monkey]

Found it!

http://www.strictlywestie.com/forums...hp?topicpage=5

That’s a link to the first post. If you can’t work our how the rest of the forum works……you’re not alone. The discussion regarding Ceroc and those clips is three or four pages into the thread.

[NZ Monkey]

It has been pointed out to me that the link I posted above isn't doing what it should. Here's another one:

http://www.strictlywestie.com/forums...hp?topicpage=2

It should take you directly to the page where Ceroc is discussed. Unfortunately the Ceroc videos have been removed, but you can still see the comments.

I don't know what happened with my last link. Perhaps IE8 did something tricky to it. Stupid IE...... Alternatively I'm an idiot.

Edit: This link works for me, but apparently not for some other people, or possibly anyone else. I'm sure one of you guru's can tell me why that is and what I can do to correct it. I'll leave it up anyway on the off chance someone get's some useful information out of it before I can post something more useful. I have a puppy who desperately needs to go for a run right now.