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Thread: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

  1. #21
    Registered User LilyB's Avatar
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    If anyone decides to enter *any* competition (dance or otherwise) they need to tell themselves that the judges' decision is final and not bitch about it afterward. ...
    People are entitled to (and do) vote with their feet. The vast majority of competitors who enter the Ceroc Champs will be aware that most of the judges are Ceroc teachers, with a few exceptions invited to judge a limited number of categories. They will also be aware that the names of the judges are not published and that the judges are not formally introduced to the audience. That's just the way the Ceroc Champs are run (and have been for years) - nothing sinister about that. The judges can be clearly seen 'judging' at the event and anyone who wishes to know their names (and qualifications) need only go up to them and ask. If people do not like this, they do not have to enter the comp or attend the event - simple as that.

    Other MJ competitions are run differently - I am aware of at least one where the judges' credentials are listed on the event programme. At some comps, the judges are formally introduced to the audience at the start. I am not aware of any MJ comp (in the UK at least) where the judging panel is named in advance of the event date. In some comps, the organisers have even been prepared to provide competitors with detailed breakdown of their marks. Some comps appoint one of the judging panel to liaise with competitors who seek feedback.

    Every competition is run differently. People can choose to compete at or attend only those competitions whose rules, procedures and organisation they approve of. Hopefully then they will never, ever, have cause to complain afterwards.

  2. #22
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Let's face it, whining about what you feel should or should not have happened is going to get you where exactly?
    It could win you the "little whiny b1tch" of the year award - but they would only complain about the judging for that too

  3. #23
    Registered User Billi Wiz's Avatar
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    GOOD TOPIC

    Here's my tuppence worth...

    1) Having competed in numerous competitions it is a total bummer when all your practice & effort seems to be unrecognized...

    a) All Judges suck!


    2) If it makes you go off, work harder, seek advice & try to expand your dance-ability - it may be a blessing in disguise

    a) All Judges are really Zen-like mystics who only want you to achieve Dance-Nirvana (click finger-cymbals here...)


    3) If after much trying, you do win a competition, or even a medal it is a feeling that will have you "dancing-on-the-ceiling" for months...

    a) All Judges are Lionel Ritchie...

  4. #24
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I've never heard so much rubbish in all my life. You've hardly attended any comps but feel completely justified in making sweeping statements claiming that the judging is crap and that the champs are essentially 'rigged' to favour Ceroc dancers.
    As it happens tho, the number of competitions I have attended is only low for someone who has danced the number of years I have. Compared to a person who has only been dancing 5/6 years, the number of comps I have attended is probably quite high. *shrug*

    Whatever. It's enough to form an opinion and that's all I need...

    Also, it doesn't help that so much secrecy surrounds some judging, like that at the Ceroc champs. Given Ceroc's behaviour as a company sometimes, would you trust them ? I believe it's justified to ask the question at least. Although, I want to make it clear I am not talking just about the Ceroc champs in my comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    As has been said before, judging is a subjective issue and some people will agree with the results and some won't, that is the nature of ALL competitions - but to suggest it's rigged is an ignorant and insulting insinuation.
    Weellll, I nearly wrote here "Sorry to disagree...." but actually, I didn't say 'rigged'. That is your choice of words. Interesting...

    If I was to give thought to a reason why judging is so crap at competitions, I would almost certainly would not go beyond 'subconcious effects' or possibly bad judging instructions or a bad judging process, but I would have to say in truth, I don't actually know the reason. Being 'rigged' never actually crossed my mind.

    So I find it interesting that when I say the judging is 'crap', you immediately leap to the conclusion I mean 'rigged'.
    I would say that is possibly a damming indictment of the Ceroc judging that even you, a Ceroc stalwart, should come to the conclusion when someone says 'crap' they mean 'rigged'. How do you know that? What do you know we don't ?

  5. #25
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    So I find it interesting that when I say the judging is 'crap', you immediately leap to the conclusion I mean 'rigged'.
    I would say that is possibly a damming indictment of the Ceroc judging that even you, a Ceroc stalwart, should come to the conclusion when someone says 'crap' they mean 'rigged'. How do you know that? What do you know we don't ?
    Err... it wasn't the 'crap' comment that made me 'leap to the conclusion you meant rigged' it was these comments where you proclaim that 'major mistakes are ignored' obviously inferring that they are delibrately ignored, that the judges had a 'tangible bias towards London and Ceroc dancers' and also that the judges 'patently fall foul of such basic problems of bias towards dancers associated with those who appoint them/pay their wages...'

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    ...and seen major mistakes just ignored as if they didn't happen, tangible bias towards London dancers, tangible bias towards 'Ceroc' dancers..
    ...I can't even post here and say 'the judges do the best they can' when patently some fall foul of such basic problems of bias towards dancers associated with those who appoint them/pay their wages...
    Yup, what a 'damning indictment of Ceroc judging' that someone would want to point out what you actually said..

  6. #26
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Dave, you use that smiley an awful lot. It's no surprise you're more lino bonce than carpet head

    Oh, and I agree with your reading of TA Guy's post too.

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Err... it wasn't the 'crap' comment that made me 'leap to the conclusion you meant rigged' it was these comments where you proclaim that 'major mistakes are ignored' obviously inferring that they are delibrately ignored, that the judges had a 'tangible bias towards London and Ceroc dancers' and also that the judges 'patently fall foul of such basic problems of bias towards dancers associated with those who appoint them/pay their wages...'

    Yup, what a 'damning indictment of Ceroc judging' that someone would want to point out what you actually said..
    What I said is what I said. No more, no less.
    Nowhere did I use the word 'Rigged'. So I dunno what your slapping your head for, does it help?
    That was your choice of word, which, as I said, I found incredibly interesting.

    It's like that psychologists word game, the one where you say something and the other person has to say the first thing that pops into their mind. It's not foolproof of course, but if I say "Economic idiot" and you reply "Gordon Brown", I think I would be most times justified in assuming you think Gordon Brown is an economic idiot.
    When I say "Champs judges make major mistakes" and "Champ judges are biased" and you reply "Rigged". I just find that interesting, cause it sure as hell never occurred to me.

    I can't help it if you (and apparently Robd) both have the common forum disorder that (amongst other almost infinite variations) allows you to...
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    "leap to the conclusion you meant rigged"
    ...without me ever actually using the word 'Rigged'

    The word I used was 'crap'. Judging is crap, not judging is rigged. Do you see the difference ?

    If either of you wish to ask me the reason behind those symptoms I listed rather than "leaping to a conclusion" I would say I have no idea, quite possibly it's many different reasons. Possible (note the use of the word "possible" here, don't want you leaping to conclusions again do we?) reasons include: "Subconcious need to please Ceroc bosses", "Bad hair day", "Insufficient knowledge of MJ", "subconcious bias towards hat wearers"... the list is prolly quite large.
    Last edited by TA Guy; 7th-May-2009 at 12:41 PM.

  8. #28
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Dave, you use that smiley an awful lot...
    It's directly proportional to the number of comments made by the flange of baboons that appear to have infiltrated this Forum (see post above as an example) - so go figure...
    Last edited by Rocky; 7th-May-2009 at 12:47 PM.

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    Registered User Chicklet's Avatar
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    The answer is obvious; get Danni Minogue in to do it next year - rumour is she won't be on t'telly so she'll be cheap, she won't know MJ from BJ so will judge purely on how much she likes what she sees in front of her. Outfits will count for a lot, as will hair and teeth. Sorted.

  10. #30
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Nowhere did I use the word 'Rigged'. So I dunno what your slapping your head for, does it help?
    That was your choice of word, which, as I said, I found incredibly interesting.
    To be honest, i found your choice of words to imply a bias on the part of the judges - so "rigged" would be a reasonable single word to use to desribe what you seemed to be saying - so I cant disagree with Rocky here.

    Rather than berating, at length it seems, Rocky for his "incredibly interesting" use of certain words, you could have just said "well i didn't quite mean that" and then explained why You are not a psychologist with Rocky on the couch, thats one session none of us want to be spectators to

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    It's directly proportional to the number of comments made by the flange of baboons
    I can't disagree with "flange of baboons" either

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    To be honest, i found your choice of words to imply a bias on the part of the judges
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    - so "rigged" would be a reasonable single word to use to desribe what you seemed to be saying - so I cant disagree with Rocky here.
    No.

    (You claim the judges are) Bias'ed would be a more sensible "reasonable single word to use" dotcha think ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Rather than berating, at length it seems, Rocky for his "incredibly interesting" use of certain words, you could have just said "well i didn't quite mean that" and then explained why
    Well, I have done, twice now. How did you miss it, or maybe you didn't, but pretending you did allows you to write a longer post ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    You are not a psychologist with Rocky on the couch, thats one session none of us want to be spectators to
    I dunno, from what I have seen on this forum, I think I would find it "incredibly interesting". And I don't mean that in a derogatory way before somebody "leaps to a conclusion" again, he seems like an interesting guy. I'll use the slaphead smilie here cos I like it:
    Last edited by TA Guy; 7th-May-2009 at 02:18 PM.

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    It's directly proportional to the number of comments made by the flange of baboons that appear to have infiltrated this Forum (see post above as an example) - so go figure...
    I actually think most of them left already

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    (You claim the judges are) Bias'ed would be a more sensible "reasonable single word to use" dotcha think ?
    Well, considering your choice of words..."tangible bias towards London dancers, tangible bias towards 'Ceroc' dancers" it does suggest that, as these are judges you are talking about, their willingness to "manipulate dishonestly" would give "rigged" as a perfectly good dictionary description that someone directly involved with the company in question is likely to infer.

    Well, I have done, twice now. How did you miss it, or maybe you didn't, but pretending you did allows you to write a longer post ?
    This sort of blahblahblah is exactly what Rocky gets criticism for. Notice I said you "could have JUST said", you didn't "just" say that, you complained at length about everything else in an annoying psychanalysing styley.

    I dunno, from what I have seen on this forum, I think I would find it "incredibly interesting". And I don't mean that in a derogatory way
    I'm sure you don't, but your choice of words make it sound like arrogant amateur psychology. Although, with much less of an air of superiority than when Rocky does it

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    To me, and to my dictionary, "rigged" implies intent. Bias is something that is often unintentional and often unrecognised by the biased.

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    flange


    I'm so childish...I dunno why, but that word makes me chuckle.

  16. #36
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    To be honest, i found your choice of words to imply a bias on the part of the judges - so "rigged" would be a reasonable single word to use to desribe what you seemed to be saying - so I cant disagree with Rocky here.
    Thing is, of course the judges are biased: because you want the judges to have a bias for good dancing over bad.

    Of course, the question then becomes "what is good dancing?"

    Looking at what did well at the Ceroc champs, I have to say that I think the judges value different things than I do (in particular, I don't like the seeming emphasis on "energy"). Which doesn't mean they're wrong. But it does tend to reward the 'classic Ceroc style' dancers over, say, the 'psuedo-Westies'.

    Actually, the biggest complaint I had with the champs was the music. If I go to my local Ceroc venue, I'd guess there won't be a single track over 135 bpm per minute. Many tracks at the Champs were a lot faster than that. I think the music should be representative of what gets played socially.

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    To me, and to my dictionary, "rigged" implies intent. Bias is something that is often unintentional and often unrecognised by the biased.
    Bias is not something that is 'often unintentional' it is something that is sometimes unintentional and something that is sometimes unrecognised by the biased - you're making a sweeping statement with no foundation in fact.

    Besides, the context in which TA Guy made his statement about bias clearly inferred manipulation - as has been noted by pretty much everyone else who has commented on his post, despite him trying to weasel word his way out of it.

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Thing is, of course the judges are biased: because you want the judges to have a bias for good dancing over bad.

    Of course, the question then becomes "what is good dancing?"

    Looking at what did well at the Ceroc champs, I have to say that I think the judges value different things than I do (in particular, I don't like the seeming emphasis on "energy"). Which doesn't mean they're wrong. But it does tend to reward the 'classic Ceroc style' dancers over, say, the 'psuedo-Westies'.

    Actually, the biggest complaint I had with the champs was the music. If I go to my local Ceroc venue, I'd guess there won't be a single track over 135 bpm per minute. Many tracks at the Champs were a lot faster than that. I think the music should be representative of what gets played socially.
    So...what criteria were the judges judging people on?

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ... you're making a sweeping statement with no foundation in fact...
    I bow to your expertise in these matters.

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    To me, and to my dictionary, "rigged" implies intent. Bias is something that is often unintentional and often unrecognised by the biased.
    Thank You.

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