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Thread: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

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    Registered User FoxyFunkster's Avatar
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    Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    OK with the boredom of the recovery from the broken ankle now in full swing i wanted to see what people opinions were of another question i was asked at the ceroc champs last weekend....

    Whilst watching the Intermediate category i was asked if i knew who the judges were?? The person asking obviously thought with me being a London Ceroc teacher that i may know who was who, to be honest i didn`t know any of them, To be fair i`ve only been dancing since march 2006 so don`t have the history of friendships that some old stooges like Howard Temple may have.

    Anyway...the question is this, Do people think that in order to judge the showcase category you have to have danced or won at that level to be credible to judge, or is it not necessary to have competed at the level you are judging....In America at the WCS events i`ve been to they always have the pro`s judging so they can at least say they have always competed at the level they are judging, so as a suggestion why not get the open competitiors judge the lower categories??? This of course isn`t always logistically possible at the Ceroc champs. I suppose the bottom line is that all people ask for is for fair objective scoring from the judges.

    My view on this is that if you cannot get a judging panel of people who`s credibility is not in question then i think the judging panel should reflect a cross section of views, Some old views, some new, some judges who have competed and succeeded at the level they are judging.....Maybe people think it`s largely not important...what do you think????

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post

    Anyway...the question is this, Do people think that in order to judge the showcase category you have to have danced or won at that level to be credible to judge, or is it not necessary to have competed at the level you are judging....In America at the WCS events i`ve been to they always have the pro`s judging so they can at least say they have always competed at the level they are judging, so as a suggestion why not get the open competitiors judge the lower categories??? This of course isn`t always logistically possible at the Ceroc champs. I suppose the bottom line is that all people ask for is for fair objective scoring from the judges.

    My view on this is that if you cannot get a judging panel of people who`s credibility is not in question then i think the judging panel should reflect a cross section of views, Some old views, some new, some judges who have competed and succeeded at the level they are judging.....Maybe people think it`s largely not important...what do you think????
    The GSDTA & WSDC provide a Judges Certification Program

    http://usadancenetwork.com/judging_philosophy.htm
    www.swingdancecouncil.com
    www.swingworld.com

    I know Ceroc Applied to the WSDC before but I will discuss this again with Skippy when I return to California in August.
    Last edited by Alan Doyle; 6th-May-2009 at 12:20 PM.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    Maybe people think it`s largely not important...what do you think????
    This is absolutely honest answer...

    It doesn't matter to me what previous experience they've had, if they come up with the same choice as me, then they're a good judge and if they pick someone who I didn't rate, then they don't know what they're talking about!

    Now, as arrogant as funny as that might sound..

    I bet its not far off of most people's concluding thoughts, after a comp!!
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Just as a good dancer may not necessarily be a good teacher I do not think that previous competition experience automatically makes somebody a good competition judge. I think a difference with the Ceroc Champs compared to some other events is that the judges credentials are not promoted (nor the judges themselves introduced at the event) - http://www.cerocchamps.com/judges.php - Whether this concerns your average competitor at the Champs is open to debate though.

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    My view on this is that if you cannot get a judging panel of people who`s credibility is not in question then i think the judging panel should reflect a cross section of views, Some old views, some new, some judges who have competed and succeeded at the level they are judging.....Maybe people think it`s largely not important...what do you think????
    In theory... I would say that I'd want the judges to have a great deal of training and experience encompassing the areas that they are judging (I'm not fussed about 'official' qualification or past competition results, mind)

    In practice though...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Now, as arrogant as funny as that might sound..

    I bet its not far off of most people's concluding thoughts, after a comp!!
    Guilty as charged

    As a punter, I've only really given much thought to the judges' backgrounds when I've strongly disagreed with the results (eg a major - non Ceroc - MJ event in 1998, where I was so incensed I vowed I'd never again attend that event ).

    Although if I were a serious competitor at one of these events, I think I'd be a lot more interested in the judging.

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    I read Len Goodman's biography. (judge on SCD)

    He said, that in the World of Ballroom Dancing, you could only win if you were a pupil of the judges.

    This is the reason why they had to spend money taking lessons from all the teachers who were also judges.

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Just as a good dancer may not necessarily be a good teacher I do not think that previous competition experience automatically makes somebody a good competition judge.
    Is it necessary to have competed at the same level in order to judge? I think the answer is "not necessarily" for the reasons you suggest - just because you are good at one thing doesn't make you good at something else in the same field. A particularly average competitor might be a brilliant judge.

    No, I don't mean me

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I read Len Goodman's biography. (judge on SCD)

    He said, that in the World of Ballroom Dancing, you could only win if you were a pupil of the judges.

    This is the reason why they had to spend money taking lessons from all the teachers who were also judges.

    I overheard someone at an event recently say after reviewing their scores from their particular comp that the 2 judges who marked them down they would have to seek out and get a private lesson or 2 with them......I`m guessing they are thinking they would be better scored next time around....The truth is though if you are judging and you know someone personally then it can get difficult separating your own subjective views with the objective ones you should be using....again i keep asking myself who`d be a judge????

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    I overheard someone at an event recently say after reviewing their scores from their particular comp that the 2 judges who marked them down they would have to seek out and get a private lesson or 2 with them......I`m guessing they are thinking they would be better scored next time around....
    They may well get better results..but then the question arises.... Why?

    1. Because they have now learned from that judge/teacher, what their downfalls were and how to overcome them?

    2. Because that judge/teacher could be looking after their own interests and it bodes well for them to have one of their pupils placed? (i.e. they're seen as a good teacher?)

    3. Because they have now established a 'friendship' and loyalties prevail?

    Whatever the real reason, I'm sure there's a few sinister people out there that will make their own conclusions, to suit their beliefs and unfortunately, in such a small pond, the waters tend to get very muddy.

    as you say.. Who'd be a judge and for that matter, who'd be a competitor
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I read Len Goodman's biography. (judge on SCD)

    He said, that in the World of Ballroom Dancing, you could only win if you were a pupil of the judges.

    This is the reason why they had to spend money taking lessons from all the teachers who were also judges.
    This is not necessarily as bad as it first appears. You teach that way believe the dance should be danced that way.

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    I don't, as a rule, attend competitions and definitely never enter, ever! Neither do I have any favourites since over the years I have only known the odd dancer who competes.
    But by and by I have racked up seeing a few comps... and seen major mistakes just ignored as if they didn't happen, tangible bias towards London dancers, tangible bias towards 'Ceroc' dancers, selfish leads actually held up as an example of how to dance, a syncronized swimming smile made as important as basic technique... and so on...

    I don't know whether I have the qualifications to judge, but fifteen years+ MJ dancing tells me the vast majority of those selected to judge don't either. I can't even post here and say 'the judges do the best they can' when patently some fall foul of such basic problems of bias towards dancers associated with those who appoint them/pay their wages.

    I get that judging is difficult, I get Lory's point as well , nonetheless, in general, if anyone asked me what I thought of MJ judging over the years, I would say essentially 'crap'. Of course, buried in amongst the general crap, there have been good judges, but even so, to answer the original question, IMO no credibility whatsoever.

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    At a Ceroc champs I would expect, in general, to see those doing MJ as taught by Ceroc doing better than those not.

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Neither do I have any favourites since over the years I have only known the odd dancer who competes.
    All the dancers I know who compete are odd too....snap!

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    This is absolutely honest answer...

    It doesn't matter to me what previous experience they've had, if they come up with the same choice as me, then they're a good judge and if they pick someone who I didn't rate, then they don't know what they're talking about!


    nuf said

    End of story

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Just as a good dancer may not necessarily be a good teacher I do not think that previous competition experience automatically makes somebody a good competition judge. I think a difference with the Ceroc Champs compared to some other events is that the judges credentials are not promoted (nor the judges themselves introduced at the event) - Whether this concerns your average competitor at the Champs is open to debate though.
    Good Thread Foxy!

    Although i have won or placed in most major categories (except team) in either Ceroc or non-Ceroc MJ competitions (and yes I realise it was donkey's years ago), I would agree with Robd - doesn't mecessarily make me a good judge. However, i'm presuming it's that bit harder for people to question the judge's scoring and placing when they have been winners or multiple winners in the past.

    Even with objective scoring criteria, judging is subjective. One judge will have a different view to another, one judge will see something another judge doesn't, one judge prefers things done one way, and another judge likes things done another way. It's exactly the same with the watching public - one person will think one couple is the best, another person will think another couple is better.

    We've seen it on the tv dance shows, in amateur competions and i'm sure even WCS has subjectivity in it's judging....it's human nature. That is why there is more than one judge. That's why there is unpredictability.

    Also, surely that's half the fun and the reason why people compete - trying to win over all the judges that are there on the day, with their performance on the day.

    btw....the first time I judged for Ceroc (again, donkey's years ago) the judges 'credentials' were published before the event, i'm unsure why this doesn't happen now.

    I'm sure if there is anyone who wants to volunteer to judge (and be shot down in flames) Ceroc would like to hear from you? It's a thankless task and there's only one thing that is certain about being a judge - is that there will be a large % of people who think you got it wrong!


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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob May View Post
    We've seen it on the tv dance shows, in amateur competions and i'm sure even WCS has subjectivity in it's judging....it's human nature. That is why there is more than one judge. That's why there is unpredictability.

    Also, surely that's
    Brings up an interesting point. Obviously subjectivity is a huge variable, nonetheless, I more or less agree with almost all the WCS placings I have ever seen (via youtube mind!). Sure, sometimes I will rate them slightly differently, but there is never the 'larger', or maybe a better word is; 'obvious' differences created by the faults I list in my first post in this thread regarding MJ competitions.

    Whilst I might disagree with WCS placings, I never get the feeling someones having a laugh, which I have at MJ competitions.

    Has anyone ever heard a WCS competition audience 'boo' at results ? Just wondering, I haven't.

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I don't, as a rule, attend competitions and definitely never enter, ever! Neither do I have any favourites since over the years I have only known the odd dancer who competes.
    But by and by I have racked up seeing a few comps... and seen major mistakes just ignored as if they didn't happen, tangible bias towards London dancers, tangible bias towards 'Ceroc' dancers, selfish leads actually held up as an example of how to dance, a syncronized swimming smile made as important as basic technique... and so on...

    I don't know whether I have the qualifications to judge, but fifteen years+ MJ dancing tells me the vast majority of those selected to judge don't either. I can't even post here and say 'the judges do the best they can' when patently some fall foul of such basic problems of bias towards dancers associated with those who appoint them/pay their wages.

    I get that judging is difficult, I get Lory's point as well , nonetheless, in general, if anyone asked me what I thought of MJ judging over the years, I would say essentially 'crap'. Of course, buried in amongst the general crap, there have been good judges, but even so, to answer the original question, IMO no credibility whatsoever.
    I've never heard so much rubbish in all my life. You've hardly attended any comps but feel completely justified in making sweeping statements claiming that the judging is crap and that the champs are essentially 'rigged' to favour Ceroc dancers.

    What you've completely ignored is that for many years the Open/Advanced and Showcase divisions were dominated by people like Will & Kate, Clayton & Janine and David & Lily and none of them had anything to do with Ceroc. Also last years showcase winners were a Lindy couple!

    And yes there is a higher percentage of Ceroc dancers who win categories and that's because the event is heavily promoted within the Ceroc network and particularly so in London where the event takes place - so it's hardly rocket science is it??

    The other aspect which villifies the judging is that most of the dancers who get placed in the Ceroc Champs also get placed in the other competitions they enter, which shows a uniformity of judging across the board.

    As has been said before, judging is a subjective issue and some people will agree with the results and some won't, that is the nature of ALL competitions - but to suggest it's rigged is an ignorant and insulting insinuation.

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Has anyone ever heard a WCS competition audience 'boo' at results ? Just wondering, I haven't.
    Out of interest, where have you observed that at an MJ comp? Personally, I've only heard of it happening once, a long long time ago - and it wasn't a Ceroc event...

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    Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Has anyone ever heard a WCS competition audience 'boo' at results ? Just wondering, I haven't.
    Maybe not quite booing, but at Grand Nationals I certainly heard crowd reactions that made it very clear they weren't happy with the judges. To be honest I thought they were worse behaved than the average MJ crowd.

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    Cool Re: Credibilty of Judges at MJ events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    As has been said before, judging is a subjective issue and some people will agree with the results and some won't, that is the nature of ALL competitions - but to suggest it's rigged is an ignorant and insulting insinuation.

    If anyone decides to enter *any* competition (dance or otherwise) they need to tell themselves that the judges' decision is final and not bitch about it afterward. Otherwise they are in serious risk of losing their sanity.

    Let's face it, whining about what you feel should or should not have happened is going to get you where exactly?
    Last edited by StokeBloke; 6th-May-2009 at 09:56 PM. Reason: Gramer and spelink

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