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Thread: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

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    Registered User FoxyFunkster's Avatar
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    Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Yesterday after watching the array of talents at the Ceroc champs someone posed a question to me whilst watching the open final.....anyway here is the question in more detail......what are your thoughts......

    Firstly I am going on the assumption that MJ borrows alot from a vast array of dances, WCS,Salsa,Lindy, Cha cha,Rumba,blues,Tango etc.......now when a latin track was played during the open most people were trying to dance latin style to compliment the track, mambo steps, ochos, etc etc.....and obvioiusly when the hip hop style track come on again the dancers tried to reflect the track within their dance....So what would happen if a WCS track came on that had the distinctive triple step rhythm in it and i danced WCS throughout the whole track??? would i get disqualified for reflecting what the music is asking me to do?? If a cha cha song was played and i dance primarily cha cha would i get disqualified?? Is it just simply a question of sticking to basic MJ timing that ensures there is enough MJ content??? any thoughts........

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    According to the Ceroc Champs rules...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Ellard and friends
    The dance must be recognisable as a modern jive like Ceroc. (Lindy Hop, Jitterbug, West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, 50s style Rock 'n' Roll, Ballroom Jive etc are not modern jives and therefore are not permitted).
    So, like everything else, it depends on the judges.

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    ....what are your thoughts.....

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove View Post
    According to the Ceroc Champs rules...



    So, like everything else, it depends on the judges.
    But MJ isn`t a dance within inself....It borrows from other dance forms, Recognisable as Ceroc?? well how ambiguos is that statement! if you looked around the room at the ceroc champs i saw such varied styles of dancing MJ that watching for recognisable MJ is a hard task indeed! Personally i think it boils down to showing MJ timing more than anything else....

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    ...Firstly I am going on the assumption that MJ borrows alot from a vast array of dances, WCS,Salsa,Lindy, Cha cha,Rumba,blues,Tango etc.......So what would happen if a WCS track came on that had the distinctive triple step rhythm in it and i danced WCS throughout the whole track??? would i get disqualified for reflecting what the music is asking me to do?? If a cha cha song was played and i dance primarily cha cha would i get disqualified?? Is it just simply a question of sticking to basic MJ timing that ensures there is enough MJ content??? any thoughts........
    Do first move cha etc. use modern jive timing.

    IIRC I've seen it put as not being recognisable as something else; in that case you'd easily be disqualified (or should be) for dancing a whole track of WCS or cha, such that the judges could recognise.

    It would be interesting to see how someone dancing say 25% of four different dances mixed about a bit got on.

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    ... IIRC I've seen it put as not being recognisable as something else; in that case you'd easily be disqualified (or should be) for dancing a whole track of WCS or cha, such that the judges could recognise...
    This forum has just finished a heated discussion on whether MJ is a superset of other jive forms.

    I am considered the position if it is 51% Lindy, or 51% WCS, in the judges opinion, then it is bad Lindy or bad WCS rather than MJ.

    The problem, for me, in that is that the old time term for bad music was "jive music", it is the origin of the name of our dance. You could call 51% Lindy "jive Lindy" and similarly have "jive WCS".

    I am driven back to my original position, Lindy and WCS are forms of Modern Jive dance, which seems to have been the position taken in the old Le Jive Modern Jive Championships.

    Of course Ceroc mj is a more rigorously defined dance, as catalogued in manuals and taught by the CTA. It is also a live and evolving dance, so having judges to decide which way it should go, and general discussions of their decisions afterwards, could be a good way to go.

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    This forum has just finished a heated discussion on whether MJ is a superset of other jive forms.
    Heated? Considering many of the other debates on here, that was an extremely calm, friendly, non-heated debate. IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I am considered the position if it is 51% Lindy, or 51% WCS, in the judges opinion, then it is bad Lindy or bad WCS rather than MJ.
    Why bad, out of interest? Can something not contain 51% of extremely good Lindy, or 51% of incredible WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    The problem, for me, in that is that the old time term for bad music was "jive music", it is the origin of the name of our dance. You could call 51% Lindy "jive Lindy" and similarly have "jive WCS".

    I am driven back to my original position, Lindy and WCS are forms of Modern Jive dance, which seems to have been the position taken in the old Le Jive Modern Jive Championships.
    I really don't follow your logic here. And if you're going by names, I'm still curious how you take a dance which predates the use of 'jive' as a dance description, then claim it's a 'Modern Jive' dance...

    Anyway - back to topic

    It's pretty subjective, IMO - and it's going to be completely up to the judges and the rule-writers for any particular competition... but MJ does give you this nice grey area which gives you huge scope to do different styling while still primarily doing MJ moves. Throwing in a few triples doesn't make it WCS or Lindy, any more than a little latin hip action makes it Salsa. I think what's going to vary from comp to comp is where they choose to draw the line.

    Out of interest - can anyone tell me whether the MJ-only rules apply to showcase? Considering who won it last year...

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....


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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Out of interest - can anyone tell me whether the MJ-only rules apply to showcase?
    For the Ceroc Champs, no they do not.

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Steve, you still teach for Ceroc, right? So you'd be OK dancing whatever you wanted at the Champs

    More seriously, I think it's as Frodo says. If what people are dancing is identifiable as a separate dance, be it WCS, Lindy, whatever then you are likely to fall foul of the judges. It seems much easier to define what MJ is not than what it is.

    Of course, if you're dancing Cha Cha on the 1 then there'd be no problem.....

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    ... Why bad, out of interest? Can something not contain 51% of extremely good Lindy, or 51% of incredible WCS? ...
    If you mixed 51% of world beating WCS with 49% of world beating waltz, how many WCS contests would you win?


    I really don't follow your logic here. And if you're going by names, I'm still curious how you take a dance which predates the use of 'jive' as a dance description, then claim it's a 'Modern Jive' dance...
    AFIK Nobody knows when "Jive" was first used as an epithet for music or dance.

    Having seen "Modern" applied to jazz and art which is decades old I prefer to keep its meaning as contemporary. So, in my view, modern jive dances could include Lindy and WCS as they are performed now.


    It's pretty subjective, IMO - and it's going to be completely up to the judges and the rule-writers for any particular competition... but MJ does give you this nice grey area which gives you huge scope to do different styling while still primarily doing MJ moves. Throwing in a few triples doesn't make it WCS or Lindy, any more than a little latin hip action makes it Salsa. I think what's going to vary from comp to comp is where they choose to draw the line.



    "Its subjective" is not a very good guidline for serious contestants.

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Steve, you still teach for Ceroc, right? So you'd be OK dancing whatever you wanted at the Champs

    More seriously, I think it's as Frodo says. If what people are dancing is identifiable as a separate dance, be it WCS, Lindy, whatever then you are likely to fall foul of the judges. It seems much easier to define what MJ is not than what it is.

    Of course, if you're dancing Cha Cha on the 1 then there'd be no problem.....
    LOL to your first inflammatory comment! now now!

    Right up until i broke my ankle i was planning to compete in the open with Drathzel....when we`d practice if we were dancing to a WCS track i`d sometimes find it tough to stick to MJ timing when the music was suggesting otherwise, Drathzel would scream! NO Triples and i was sort of agreeing, however when a latin track came on and i`d change the rhythm to suit the track then nothing was mentioned! Like i have previously mentioned i suppose the dance has to have mainly MJ timing but sparodic triple step, cha chac rhythms etc would be allowed ...It`s a very interesting point though i think......

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    If what people are dancing is identifiable as a separate dance, be it WCS, Lindy, whatever then you are likely to fall foul of the judges. It seems much easier to define what MJ is not than what it is.
    OK, anyone got links to actual definitions for WCS and Lindy?

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    stuff...
    I've replied to this back at its original home on the 'superset' thread.

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post

    Of course, if you're dancing Cha Cha on the 1 then there'd be no problem.....


    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    sometimes find it tough to stick to MJ timing when the music was suggesting otherwise, Drathzel would scream! NO Triples
    I sympathize with you, I seriously don't think I can dance straight MJ anymore
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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    OK, anyone got links to actual definitions for WCS and Lindy?
    This was on the Weston Comp site

    Swing Content Definition
    To identify the presence of swing the judges will use the following USA NASDE ‘Statement of Swing’.

    Swing is an American Rhythm Dance based on a foundation of 6-beat and 8-beat patterns that incorporate a wide variety of rhythms built on 2-beat single, delayed, double, triple, and blank rhythm units. The 6-beat patterns include, but are not limited to, passes, underarm turns, push-breaks, open-to-closed, and closed-to-open position patterns. The 8-beat patterns include, but are not limited to, whips, swing-outs, Lindy circles, and shag pivots. Although they are not part of the foundation of the dance as stated above, 2-beat and 4-beat extension rhythm breaks may be incorporated to extend a pattern, to phrase the music, and/or to accent breaks.

    I am not sure it's very helpful though

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I sympathize with you, I seriously don't think I can dance straight MJ anymore
    So you dance bent MJ instead? Whoever could possibly be teaching you that?

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    This was on the Weston Comp site

    Swing Content Definition
    To identify the presence of swing the judges will use the following USA NASDE ‘Statement of Swing’.

    Swing is an American Rhythm Dance based on a foundation of 6-beat and 8-beat patterns that incorporate a wide variety of rhythms built on 2-beat single, delayed, double, triple, and blank rhythm units. The 6-beat patterns include, but are not limited to, passes, underarm turns, push-breaks, open-to-closed, and closed-to-open position patterns. The 8-beat patterns include, but are not limited to, whips, swing-outs, Lindy circles, and shag pivots. Although they are not part of the foundation of the dance as stated above, 2-beat and 4-beat extension rhythm breaks may be incorporated to extend a pattern, to phrase the music, and/or to accent breaks.

    I am not sure it's very helpful though
    That's a definition for "Swing", not WCS or Lindy. But it's the only definition I've found online myself, either.

    There is an amusing article about the NASDE definition here: http://www.usadancenetwork.com/what_is_swing.htm

    Why amusing? Well, in particular for this bit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy Blair
    In 1994, an amendment was added by the World Swing Dance Council based on the percentage required in specific Swing competitions. The amendment - added to clarify what Swing is NOT - read as follows:

    "If you can identify the dance as something OTHER than Swing, it cannot be considered part of the required percentage of Swing."
    Examples of what is NOT Swing are: Hustle, Hip-Hop, Charleston, Balboa, Jazz, etc.
    Sound familiar? (I confess, part of the reason I asked for definitions was to see which of them had the same "we can't define it, we can only define what it isn't" problem).

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    For Lindy, I favour the following definition, swiped shamelessly from Yehoodi. Someone claims to have taken the near-incomprehensible definition from Arthur Murray's site, translated it into Russian using Babelfish, then back into English, which has improved it no end...

    It is named the ray Of bolger, after Colonel lindbergyu's's flight through atlantic. This rocking had as very "to obtain into air" as as far as possible. However, furiously acrobatic type utilized for the exhibitions not the same by what is quiet rhythmic Lindy she took pleasure by good dancers in field ballroom. Rhythmic pictures assume the place above 2 measurements of notes. More acrobatic versions were limited to ballrooms the most known was savoy Harlem N6h Iorka. NOTE: In at one time Jitterbug included charleston, the black bottom, shag and hop Lindy. It now was consolidated into hop Lindy in the East USA and on the western free flight the western rocking of free flight.

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    Re: Dancing WCS or Latin in a MJ comp....

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    For Lindy, I favour the following definition. Someone claims to have taken the near-incomprehensible definition from Arthur Murray's site, translated it into Russian using Babelfish, then back into English, which has improved it no end...
    So, by my IML analogy, can we now all conclude that Lindy is a subset of MJ...?

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