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Thread: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

  1. #101
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Why a women first timer is not allowed to feel like that nobody has told me.
    No-one is telling anyone how they should feel.

    However some of us believe that the attitudes being espoused by the venue concerned are sexist, and as such wrong, as it isn't written in any rules, either from Ceroc HQ or the venue, that women are ot allowed to lead - and if they can lead in class, they should be able to lead in review session too. If we are talking about comfort levels of women having to be lead by other women, then it is only logical that the rule applies across both classes. It doesn't, therefore there is very questionable logic being applied to the decision.

    And no-one is saying that women should be forced to dance with women. We are only talking about the class. And as has been previously stated several times, there are plenty of men who are as likely to put women off as there are female leads - probably a lot more.

    However, I would also argue that it is more socially acceptable for women to dance together, than for men to dance together, and therefore they are two different issues. Historically, women have danced together at social functions because there haven't been the men available - either they've been off fighting wars and therefore not around, or there are fewer men because they've been killed in those wars. So women have got into the habit of dancing together, or not at all. Sound familiar?!

  2. #102
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Hetrosexuality is in our genetic makeup.
    Unless you are not heterosexual of course - also, is there evidence that your sexuality is entirely genetic ?

    I like being close to women because I am programmed that way. Perhaps if I had had brothers instead of sisters I might be more amenable to dancing with men.
    In essence you are admitting that your upbringing has a lot to do with it. I think we as a society are getting away from male/female stereotypes of previous decades.

    Whatever insults you may care to throw the fact is if I had been faced with a male partner on my first visit I would not have come back. I think most men would feel the same.
    One of the first times I ever danced in London, in my first year of dancing I was pointed toward Steve Lampert as a possible follower by the teacher. Surprisingly, this didn't put me off (this would be Jive Bar circa 1999/2000)

    Why a women first timer is not allowed to feel like that nobody has told me. Why an organiser should adopt policies that make new customers feel uncomfortable unnecessarily nobody has explained.
    Women traditionally dance with women in most social dance settings I have ever been in. Is this not true in your experience ? Its actually the social norm as far as I can see. In the world of partner dancing I have not seen it as an issue in the 10 years I've been involved in it. Perhaps some new customers are uncomfortable, but then there will be some that are uncomfortable with lots of other things - when you think of the smelly, obnoxious, rude or dangerous partners you may meet - dancing with the same sex during lessons seems as important as a persons eye colour. During free style people choose who they dance with based on whatever criteria they are personally happy with anyway, so its irrelevant.

  3. #103
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    knowing the people involved as i do perhaps we can go back to the point in question which as it happens has nothing to do with homophobia or same sex couples
    Mayhem was not being denied the practice session as a female but as an acomplished follow
    she was told that the taxi dancer (not the female beginners) would feel intimidated by an exceptional follow being in the practice session as a lead

    From my long term experience as taxi dancer and now a taxi manager this is absolute nonsense it is always better to have experienced dancers in the practice session it helpe the beginners to practice the moves and build them into their muscle memory

    I would be very dismayed if any of the taxis i manage were intimidated by any dnacer who turned up in their session

    oh and by the way the other taxis were not intimidated it was the taxi manager that was

  4. #104
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post

    I would be very dismayed if any of the taxis i manage were intimidated by any dnacer who turned up in their session
    Mmmmm. To be honest, I'd be pretty well intimidated if <Jordan Frisbee> turned up at my review class. <Insert your own name here>, it's all relative.

    Dunno what I'd do if Tatiana turned up. Goop, gurgle, giggle probably

  5. #105
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Mmmmm. To be honest, I'd be pretty well intimidated if <Jordan Frisbee> turned up at my review class. <Insert your own name here>, it's all relative.

    Dunno what I'd do if Tatiana turned up. Goop, gurgle, giggle probably
    that would be just a tad different from a normal ceroc punter who is a very good follow though wouldnt it
    i would probably struggle with the session were mike ellard to turn up and watch

  6. #106
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    You're right! Why is it hypocritical to teach something to someone when it suits your purpose; but when it doesn't you give them a list of made up excuses that pretty much everyone here has dispelled, to explain your bigoted, homophobic, Edwardian prejudice.
    IF the bold bit was correct you could reasonably call it hypocritical.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    eh? It is clearly hypocritical to not allow someone to do something when it suits them (learning to lead) and only allow them to do that thing when it suits YOU (taxi dancer). I suggest you get a dictionary and look up the big words you dont understand in future
    Oh please.

    As I pointed out the circumstances are fundamentally different.

  7. #107
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    i would probably struggle with the session were mike ellard to turn up and watch
    He does that from time to time - guess how I know?
    Love dance, will travel

  8. #108
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    He does that from time to time - guess how I know?
    Ah, happy days eh. Then there was that time when the 10.......

  9. #109
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Why is it hypocritical. A taxi dancer is official, and therefore different.
    Disagree. A taxi dancer is official, yes, and therefore setting an officially endorsed example for the paying customers to follow.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Disagree. A taxi dancer is official, yes, and therefore setting an officially endorsed example for the paying customers to follow.
    Disagree with your disagree. A lady might tolerate being searched by a female police officer, but not consent to being searched by a lady volunteer. An ounce of authority can tip the balance.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Disagree with your disagree. A lady might tolerate being searched by a female police officer, but not consent to being searched by a lady volunteer. An ounce of authority can tip the balance.
    Disagree with your disagree with my disagree. A lady taxi dancer might well invite me to dance with her. A lady police officer would not invite me to arrest people with her.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Oh please.

    As I pointed out the circumstances are fundamentally different.
    I'm only point out that you are fundamentally wrong

  13. #113
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    Cool Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    The franchisee is making business decisions, nothing hypocritical about maximising profit.
    ...and here was I thinking that Ceroc was an inclusive company dedicated to teaching people the joy of dancing; not simply a vehicle to secure a maximum bottom line for the franchisee. Of course profit within a company is important, but it's a shame when it's the be-all-and-end-all

    Maybe the fact that I am in a solid relationship means that I am not using dancing to look for a life partner. I imagine if you're after something more... romantic... then dancing with a man may put a wrinkle in your night *shrug* I don't know, that's purely my conjecture as I dance just for the fun of dancing to great music with people (of both sexes).

    YMMV
    Last edited by StokeBloke; 5th-May-2009 at 02:15 PM.

  14. #114
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    He does that from time to time - guess how I know?
    yes i have heard of this as well
    not a bad thing really though is it
    especially when certain taxi managers are intimidated by a regular, known, good follow joining in the practice session

  15. #115
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    not a bad thing really though is it
    I agree - not at all a bad thing - just a bit nerve-wracking when it happens to you!
    Love dance, will travel

  16. #116
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    some of us believe that the attitudes being espoused by the venue concerned are sexist, and as such wrong, as it isn't written in any rules, either from Ceroc HQ or the venue, that women are ot allowed to lead - and if they can lead in class, they should be able to lead in review session too. If we are talking about comfort levels of women having to be lead by other women, then it is only logical that the rule applies across both classes. It doesn't, therefore there is very questionable logic being applied to the decision.
    Frodo, it seems you are missing the point - see above by Twirly. The question is not about the business decisions by franchisees. The question IS about double standards of those decisions.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Maybe the fact that I am in a solid relationship means that I am not using dancing to look for a life partner. I imagine if you're after something more... romantic... then dancing with a man may put a wrinkle in your night *shrug* I don't know, that's purely my conjecture as I dance just for the fun of dancing to great music with people (of both sexes).
    So do I. Having to use dancing to look for a life partner would take all the fun out of it, IMO!

  18. #118
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    I agree - not at all a bad thing - just a bit nerve-wracking when it happens to you!
    as i said i can see that would be the case

    having said that i can think of a few venues that might be helped by mike visiting from time to time


    In this case though Mayhem is a normal (if you can call her that ) punter who has been subjected to this by a taxi manager who is obviously worried she isnt doing her job properly (whether she is or not) and hasnt got the confidence to help a follow get it right
    Once again i will add it has nothing to do sex or homophobia but in my opinion purely of a personal nature regarding one taxi dancer getting above herself and the franchisee backing a nervous taxi dancer instead of using this as a way of building the taxi dancers confidence in herself

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Most ladies come in the expectation of dancing with men. That is what they paid for, and the organiser should heed that fact.
    .
    Surely they came to learn to dance at the end of the day

    I am a female and i both lead and follow (just reached the finals at Champs leading a man)

    Following wasnt the reason i started dancing - i wanted learn to lead too, I just found a willing candidate to work throught the moves with me and then once i felt confident i started joining in the class as a lead.

    You do occasionally get the odd female look down her nose at you as they come round but i have never had anyone refuse to dance with me or have anyone tell me that i cant learn to lead!


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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Once again i will add it has nothing to do sex or homophobia but in my opinion purely of a personal nature regarding one taxi dancer getting above herself and the franchisee backing a nervous taxi dancer instead of using this as a way of building the taxi dancers confidence in herself
    Technically, she is a taxi manager, rather than a taxi dancer, as I read this thread. I agree, though, there is no sense in accusing her of being homophobic. The woman in question merely has an irrational fear of the damage that will be caused to the venue by a non-taxi female leading in the beginner review class - surely a case of homotripudiophobia, not homophobia.

    The venue is really missing a trick here. Rather than simply saying "no" and leaving unpleasant messages on Mayhem's answer phone, why not engage her with alternatives? It's not like beginner review classes are the holy grail of learning to lead. Is there a beginner's workshop they could offer to her? Maybe the teacher or the taxi dancers could offer a dance after the class to let her practice the routine and give some quick feedback? Maybe they could point out men who've expressed an interest in following, or other women who are learning to lead? Instead, they give the impression of being deliberately obstructive, and that makes them look bad.

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