Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

[Twirly]

I am well aware that love of dancing is the main motivation.

I have been at a considerable disadvantage in this thread because I have done a lot of statistical analyses on the Ceroc Central database, and have been wrestling with confidentially and other issues.

As could be expected there are men that deter first timers from returning.

Unexpectedly there also appear to be women that tend to deter first timer ladies when they are present, and there are women taxi-dancers that appear to deter them even more. There are, predictably far more taxi dancers that do a good job in retaining recruits, and there are some that have incredible records.

Interesting. I am curious as to how the reasons for a first timer not returning have been established and logged? When I first started, I was taken along once or possibly twice by someone, and then didn’t go again for three or four months as I had things that I needed to get out of the way to free up the time for regular classes. But no-one ever asked me about my experience or why I didn’t go back – I just got a free pass sent around the time I did go back, which was great! (Actually, Ceroc’s failure to ask for customer feedback is one of the things that really bugs me. I did see a “suggestions box” at Greenwich once – but there was no paper and no pens

Can you also confirm how many first time women are put off by only getting to dance for half the class/review class as there aren’t enough men? This really pissed me off when I first started.

Had my second class as a lead last night, which I enjoyed even more than last weeks. And I had both women and the taxis thanking me for “helping out” as there were twice as many women as men in the class! I even plucked up the courage to ask two of them who had seemed comfortable with me in class to dance, although I checked first that they were happy to dance with a woman who had barely any moves. One helped me nail one move from last week. The other, well I think that I might’ve been the only person who asked her to dance all night – and she was incredibly grateful, as not only did she get to dance, but she was also asking for my help as a follow with getting a move right. However I’ve just realised that I’m still utterly cr@p at remembering the names of moves!

[David Franklin]

Interesting. I am curious as to how the reasons for a first timer not returning have been established and logged? When I first started, I was taken along once or possibly twice by someone, and then didn’t go again for three or four months as I had things that I needed to get out of the way to free up the time for regular classes. But no-one ever asked me about my experience or why I didn’t go back – I just got a free pass sent around the time I did go back, which was great! (Actually, Ceroc’s failure to ask for customer feedback is one of the things that really bugs me. I did see a “suggestions box” at Greenwich once – but there was no paper and no pens

From the frequent use of "appear" in BigD's post, I'm guessing some kind of correlation analysis was performed.

(e.g. "We have noticed that when Sleazy Sid comes to the venue, the chance of a beginner follow returning is 23%, but when he's absent, it's 29%").

It is a long time since I've done stats, and it was never a major topic in my studies, but I am very doubtful any such analysis would stand up to significance testing. (In other words, in a large population where, you're always going to find interesting correlations, but they won't be "real", they will simply be random coincidence).

Of course, it's hard to say for sure without the hard data.

Can you also confirm how many first time women are put off by only getting to dance for half the class/review class as there aren’t enough men? This really pissed me off when I first started.

Will be interested to see the response to this, as I'd expect this to be amenable to statistical analysis.

Had my second class as a lead last night, which I enjoyed even more than last weeks. And I had both women and the taxis thanking me for “helping out” as there were twice as many women as men in the class!

[Lory]

Only if they only dance with each other.

Yep, and that's what Bigd said they did

[bigdjiver]

Interesting. I am curious as to how the reasons for a first timer not returning have been established and logged? ...

I know nothing about any analyses of reasons why done by anybody. I was interested in the broad question of how the MF ratio affected the number of members that dropped out. I payed particular attention to first timers.

As could be expected the MF ratio was a minor consideration in whether people came back. What matters is if people enjoy themselves. You could probably have an all female group which flourished. (Daytime MJ for mums with schoolkids?). I would guess that an all male group could work too.

[David Franklin]

Only if they only dance with each other.

Yep, and that's what Bigd said they did

Actually, no. He expressely said they danced as leads with other women too (emphasis mine):

Some ladies would arrive after the class and dance together. Then they would dance with other ladies as leads, increasing the leader imbalance even more.

I must say, I find myself thinking there's a lot more to this story than meets the eye. I've never seen a venue with more than 3 or 4 women dancing as leads, and I've rarely seen even that unless there are a lot of women left over.

So if you have a venue with a surplus of experienced male leads, and at the same time lots of women wanting to take the lead themselves, I suspect there was some other dynamic going on. Which I further suspect might have had more to do with the venue losing popularity than anything else.

All supposition on my part, of course.

[bigdjiver]

... So if you have a venue with a surplus of experienced male leads, and at the same time lots of women wanting to take the lead themselves, I suspect there was some other dynamic going on. Which I further suspect might have had more to do with the venue losing popularity than anything else.

All supposition on my part, of course.

To me it looked like those ladies just liked dancing as leads, and probably thought they were helping by giving beginners a dance. Being from a different organisation than most of the eperienced leads there may have been an element of showing their followers how it felt when done right, and not wanted to dance with the experienced men because they were doing it their way. Being younger they may have felt uncomfortable about asking the older newcomers to dance. The culture clash between Ceroc and another MJ style was probably a big factor. A house divided ...

[Twirly]

Unexpectedly there also appear to be women that tend to deter first timer ladies when they are present

I know nothing about any analyses of reasons why done by anybody. I was interested in the broad question of how the MF ratio affected the number of members that dropped out. I payed particular attention to first timers.

As could be expected the MF ratio was a minor consideration in whether people came back. What matters is if people enjoy themselves.

I’m really confused now. How did you infer that it was women who put the first timers off if no-one has actually asked them why they didn’t come back? I will admit that in the context of this thread, I did read your earlier post as meaning that female leads put first timers off coming back. I also thought that you had evidence of this – but maybe not?

Obviously, people are only going to come back if they enjoy themselves (men or women). But it would be interesting to find out why they don’t, though I suspect that we’ll never know for sure.

[crystaltips]

...

...on the other hand () it could be just ego getting in the way at intermediate classes! Not sure how well it is taken when after the class the followers say that the female leads is the only one who "got" tonights moves

I've also been told that. And frequently, when the lines has stopped snaking by and my next lady has stopped in front of me, I'm greeted with "thank god it's you, I'll be fine if you're leading" !!

[crystaltips]

Having my earlier post back, aaargh I apologise, it makes me sound sooooo arroogant!!

What I meant was that the lady feels she will then have a better chance of "getting" the move, rather than being put off getting it by a male lead who hasn't quite cracked it yet.

Still sounds arrogant, right? Sorry. I really don't mean to be. I mentioned my reasons for learning to lead previously but I have to also say that one of the reasons I continue to do it is so that I can be a better dancer. I'm never going to be a petite, graceful, fluid follower but I think I do have a chance at being a good lead so why would I not do it. Besides, anything men can do . . . .

[martingold]

As well as the statistical data I have the experience of a local venue that was damaged, perhaps even fatally damaged, by ladies who wanted to lead. There was a surplus of experienced male dancers. I used to leave early to reduce competition for ladies, believing it to be for the good of the venue. I wanted it to succeed.

Some ladies would arrive after the class and dance together. Then they would dance with other ladies as leads, increasing the leader imbalance even more. I regularly left early. I do not have the benefits of the stats in this case, but we did not do a good job of retaining men or ladies, and the venue folded.

As I posted, I am with the franchisee on this one.

Blaming good lady leads for a venue having to close smacks of pure nonsense to me
It is usually down to a lot more than that mainly the music, the teacher, and the friendliness venue staff that keeps people
this all held together by a good venue manager or franchisee

i have seen this put to the test in a couple of local venues one now being extremely popular having gone through various changes over the years
it went from above 100 regular dancers down to 20 then back to 90 (due imho twice changing teacher) now its at 120 to 150 as regular members
another venue has closed again due to changes made
Absolutely nothing to do with the clientele

I must say, I find myself thinking there's a lot more to this story than meets the eye. I've never seen a venue with more than 3 or 4 women dancing as leads, and I've rarely seen even that unless there are a lot of women left over.

So if you have a venue with a surplus of experienced male leads, and at the same time lots of women wanting to take the lead themselves, I suspect there was some other dynamic going on. Which I further suspect might have had more to do with the venue losing popularity than anything else.

All supposition on my part, of course.

[bigdjiver]

Blaming good lady leads for a venue having to close smacks of pure nonsense to me...

For most venues having good lady leads is a huge asset. Recruitment drives usually bring in far more women than men, and ladies that can lead as well as follow are a major asset in keeping everybody dancing.

At this venue I would see experienced male dancers come to the door, look in and see men sitting out and no ladies, then walk away. I often went home early, or went out for a walkabout to help the situation.

It is usually down to a lot more than that mainly the music, the teacher, and the friendliness venue staff that keeps people
this all held together by a good venue manager or franchisee

All these factors come into play. The playlists did not appeal to many Ceroc dancers. The organiser was offering something different.

The teacher was very good, and it was a very friendly venue. The advertising did not work well enough, and those recruited did not stick.

Absolutely nothing to do with the clientele

The clientele are who you dance with. It is everything to do with the clientele and the music. Our local freestyles have no teacher. They would remain profitable for a long time even if the local class closed down.I learned to dance watching others, and regularly dance with ladies who have never partner danced before. If the local freestyles were held weekly who knows what would happen.

[martingold]

For most venues having good lady leads is a huge asset. Recruitment drives usually bring in far more women than men, and ladies that can lead as well as follow are a major asset in keeping everybody dancing.
At this venue I would see experienced male dancers come to the door, look in and see men sitting out and no ladies, then walk away. I often went home early, or went out for a walkabout to help the situation.

which makes me wonder why male dancers didnt stay in the first place or couldnt cope with the learning process is it because they didnt go and ask the ladies for a dance or was the venue just to cliquey

All these factors come into play. The playlists did not appeal to many Ceroc dancers. The organiser was offering something different.

obviously not what the majority of the dancers wanted and by the way i know of several good and sucsessful ventures playing music that wouldnt apeal to many ceroc dancers but other dancers will travel miles for it

The teacher was very good, and it was a very friendly venue. The advertising did not work well enough, and those recruited did not stick.

so why didnt they stay there must be a reason why some venues with loads of good lady leads work yet this one didnt

anyway as agent says this question and thread isnt about the fact that they didnt want lady leads or indeed same sex dance couples just that a taxi dancer felt intimidated by a very good follow trying to learn to lead by using the ceroc formula ie beginners class and then practice session

[nebula]

Read all the posts with interest. Some good points, some not so good ones. Let me give you a local perspective...
As I dance in the same local venues as Mayhem, it really shocked me that something like this has come to pass. Mayhem goes out of her way to dance with beginners, to have her dancing lead would have been a tremendous asset to Ceroc here commercially.
She not only dances with them, but she chats with them, goes through the basics with them, and generally makes them feel welcome. To bar her from the refresher class is pure nonsense. Just because the taxi manager learnt different way does not mean that way is THE correct way.
To add insult to the injury, they are quite happy to "allow" her to learn to lead, but ONLY if she becomes a taxi dancer. How hypocritical is that?!!! Having done my taxi-ing spell, I certainly have discouraged her from doing that - as many ex-taxis have said before on here, it damages your own dancing sometimes to the point of no return (not trying to be arrogant about it, for me it's simple truth).
I now also have a bone to pick up with them, which is a different story altogether. Let's say that not having any legal right to forbid me to run private workshops (specifically NOT affiliated with Ceroc or any other independent companies in the area and beyond), I was told that I am forbidden of promoting them at ceroc venues, as that is in direct competition.
Having run a musicality workshop, I can hardly visualise it being in competition with ceroc (musicality at ceroc )... Anyway, I will have to do my "pushing" (another phrase that was used...) outside now. Thank God the weather's turned and it's going to be warmer from now on

[Liz McCaig]

In particular, I'd have to question why organisers think follows are going to be traumatized by dancing with a woman (despite lots of anecdotal evidence to the contrary), and yet they ignore the many leads creepy enough to really traumatize beginners.

That's why I stopped going to Salsa which was the first partner dance I tried....sleezy men. There are a lot less in Jive. It still does put me off from returning to a venue even as a more experienced dancer.

At almost all Salsa venues I have been to in my area women have to dance together to learn and this was never the problem...only reason they stayed. It was always lack of men or those sleeze balls during the freestyle that caused the problem!!

I used to attend Salsa classes when working in Belgium...no sleeze balls there...and the ratios of men to women were fairly even. Lady leads were still encouraged.

This could be a "very british" hang-up...outdated and outmoded?! And therefore like the "british men don't dance hang-up" this should be challenged to bring Britain into the 21st century (even the 19th on this point....)! (Wow - my first rant on here!!)

[frodo]

That's why I stopped going to Salsa which was the first partner dance I tried....sleezy men..... (Wow - my first rant on here!!)

Why not rant on a new thread. It is probably long overdue and there may be many others who would also like to rant on sleezy men.

This one is probably best kept for talking about women leaders.

[frodo]

To add insult to the injury, they are quite happy to "allow" her to learn to lead, but ONLY if she becomes a taxi dancer. How hypocritical is that?!!!

Why is it hypocritical. A taxi dancer is official, and therefore different.

Even men who don't dance with other men may be OK being lead by the teacher, or leading the teacher in class, to illustrate a point.

The context and purpose are very different, and understood to be different.

...I'm never going to be a petite, graceful, fluid follower but I think I do have a chance at being a good lead so why would I not do it. Besides, anything men can do . . . .

You have better opportunities than men so all other things being equal you should be significantly better.

[StokeBloke]

Why is it hypocritical.

You're right! Why is it hypocritical to teach something to someone when it suits your purpose; but when it doesn't you give them a list of made up excuses that pretty much everyone here has dispelled, to explain your bigoted, homophobic, Edwardian prejudice.

1. You may not learn to follow for your own fun and entertainment because it may [insert weird made up excuse here - like it may frighten people into thinking Ceroc dancers like to sip from the sapphic fountain *gasp*].
2. I need Taxi crew so you may learn to lead now.

I see your point exactly Frodo, it's not hypocritical at all

[Dreadful Scathe]

Why is it hypocritical. A taxi dancer is official, and therefore different.

eh? It is clearly hypocritical to not allow someone to do something when it suits them (learning to lead) and only allow them to do that thing when it suits YOU (taxi dancer). I suggest you get a dictionary and look up the big words you dont understand in future

[crystaltips]

You have better opportunities than men so all other things being equal you should be significantly better.

Correct. And probably true. But not as good as the best leads. And never likely to be. If I spend the same number of hours dancing as your average guy but only 20% of that time is leading then I would need to do a helluva lot more dancing to get the same level as him. Jack of all trades, Master of none. To get better at leading I know I have to do it more (which is true for anyone) but then I go dancing and am asked to dance by all these lovely men . . . how can a gal refuse.

[bigdjiver]

You're right! Why is it hypocritical to teach something to someone when it suits your purpose; but when it doesn't you give them a list of made up excuses that pretty much everyone here has dispelled, to explain your bigoted, homophobic, Edwardian prejudice...

When they lack the skill they play the man, not the ball.

I am no authority on pubs, but I have heard three ex-publicans complain that they started with an "everybody welcome" policy but soon found themselves running a gay bar, and non-profitable ones at that.

1. You may not learn to follow for your own fun and entertainment because it may [insert weird made up excuse here - like it may frighten people into thinking Ceroc dancers like to sip from the sapphic fountain *gasp*].

I think you meant lead, but when you are kicking the man precision is not so important.

2. I need Taxi crew so you may learn to lead now.

The franchisee is making business decisions, nothing hypocritical about maximising profit.

I see your point exactly Frodo, it's not hypocritical at all

And even when you think you are wrong, you are right.

Few people come to Ceroc to cure their homophbia. Most people do not like going against the culture, the status quo. If a lady does not want to be lead by another she is unlikely to say so.

Most ladies come in the expectation of dancing with men. That is what they paid for, and the organiser should heed that fact.

Hetrosexuality is in our genetic makeup. I like being close to women because I am programmed that way. Perhaps if I had had brothers instead of sisters I might be more amenable to dancing with men.

Whatever insults you may care to throw the fact is if I had been faced with a male partner on my first visit I would not have come back. I think most men would feel the same. Why a women first timer is not allowed to feel like that nobody has told me. Why an organiser should adopt policies that make new customers feel uncomfortable unnecessarily nobody has explained.

After dancing for years I have actually danced some moves with men twice, both times in a "fun" foursome class, where everybody danced with the other three. It was not "fun" for me, and the other guys were positively cringing.