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Thread: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    ... I'm sure there's an equal amount of people who are turned off of partner dancing because its so entwined with sex and sexuality, to those who come 'because' of it ...
    And they come to MJ because ...?

    ... Take those 'first nighters' for instance.. some come along 'with' their other halves and I should imagine its quite hard for a lot of couples to see 'their' partners, dancing with the opposite sex all night. A lot of insecurities will be highlighted but if some of the partners were of the same sex, it could be quite reassuring Showing that its NOT just all about sex, its about 'the dance'! ...
    Jealousy is not a numbers game. Too often it just takes one dance where another half is seen to be really enjoying themself and the pair are gone forever.

    ... Also, I know if I were in the line up on my first night and a man 'accidentally' brushed my boob, I'd be far more suspicious than if a woman did! And for some, that might be enough to turn them off of coming back! ...
    If you had the question "why is she dancing with women?" in mind, and then ... ?

    .... A lot of my NON dancing friends make jokes that Ceroc is some sort of secret undercover swingers club. They can't get it into their heads, that people go, just for the pure love of dancing and I'm afraid, reading stuff like this..... the fact you 'have' to dance with the opposite sex, just goes to reinforce these views. ...
    If you came with the "swingers" worry, then the teacher tells you never to refuse a dance, and then you see UCP you would worry some more, then you see same-sex dancing ...

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    And they come to MJ because ...?
    Are you being serious?

    If you had the question "why is she dancing with women?" in mind, and then ... ?
    Do you mean.. because she might 'FANCY THEM'
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Skin colour, age, size, race, religion are all meaningless in terms of dancing. In Ceroc, even ability means very little. But Dance (in all it's forms) is so entwined with sex and sexuality that you cannot make it asexual.
    Bullcrap. Or there's something very odd going on with the ballet class for 3 year olds that my daughter Katie was at yesterday.

    You are invading a stranger's personal space and trusting yourself with them (or asking them to trust you): The closest anyone else has been to them will have been lovers and family.
    Contrary to some stereotypes, most people who do Ceroc do have friends, you know.

    You're not family. That pulls you towards the 'lover'. You don't have to be homophobic to be uncomfortable with dancing with a same sex partner. You don't have an "attitude" because you don't like dancing with same sex partners. These are beginners - most of whom will never have partner danced before. Most would be mortified by an accidental brushing of boob or bum of the opposite sex. And you expect them to be 100% OK with having a stranger of the same sex put their hands over them and move them about?
    I've been in beginner Salsa classes where there were a lot of men over. They were paired together. I don't think anyone had a particular issue with it. (They weren't happy with the idea that there'd be a 3:1 M/F ratio, but there weren't any "OMG, I'm dancing with a man" problems).

    It's not being 'fussy' or a 'prude' : It's being brought up with manners,
    etiquette and decorum. With a moral upbringing that respects other people. With an instilled biblical sense of "right" and "wrong".
    Did you really mean that? Was it supposed to be a parody and it came across wrong?

    If not. Wow. Just wow.

    And how many folk would "have fun" if they had to dance with the same sex all night?
    Careful with those straw-man arguments, if they catch fire, you might get burnt.

    BTW It's an important hair-splitting: The organisers are providing and maintaining the best environment they can for dancers. They are the ones who are entitled to make the decisions and make the rules; not the dancers themselves.
    And the dancers are entitled to give them a hard time about those decisions.

    In particular, I'd have to question why organisers think follows are going to be traumatized by dancing with a woman (despite lots of anecdotal evidence to the contrary), and yet they ignore the many leads creepy enough to really traumatize beginners.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    ... What I also don’t understand from Mayhem’s original post is why, if the venue wish to discourage same sex dancing, she was allowed to do the beginners class as a lead, but prevented from doing the review class?
    If same sex dancing was the problem she would be prevented from both.

    moved:
    When I first started, there were men in class whom I dreaded having to run through the moves with.
    and you had to endure the discomfort from zero to threer times in a typical lesson over 45 minutes. In a review class around here it will be more like 3 to 7 encounters with the same partner in 30 minutes.

    ...What about protecting and encouraging the existing, repeat customer who has shown loyalty and longevity and has already given you lots of business?...
    With each new first timer comes a new circle of contacts, and the opportunity to sell a beginners workshop. Look at the distribution of types of workshops on offer and you will see where the bulk of the business is.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    You are invading a stranger's personal space and trusting yourself with them (or asking them to trust you)
    Maybe it's my mind or maybe it's Franck's Southport class but when I first read this I was sure it said thrusting yourself with them (or asking them to thrust you)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    In particular, I'd have to question why organisers think follows are going to be traumatized by dancing with a woman (despite lots of anecdotal evidence to the contrary), and yet they ignore the many leads creepy enough to really traumatize beginners.


    Great point David. I daresay many more beginner ladies have been put off by sleazy/seedy/inconsiderate men than by having to dance with another female.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    ...
    I'm sure there's an equal amount of people who are turned off of partner dancing because its so entwined with sex and sexuality, to those who come 'because' of it ..
    Why would those people come to a partner dance like MJ? There is pole dancing, belly dancing, contemporary dancing (which is 100% female around here.) and others.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by drathzel View Post
    I am quite shocked at this. I am sure that the franchise owner has a good reason and it might be worth a chat with them when you are not at a venue.
    The only good reason i can think of is trying to stop a disruptive person from putting the taxi dancers off during the beginners recap. But that doesn't sound likely from what has been said.

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    No. I am afraid it is far from valid or reasonable. This person (regardless of gender) is paying cash to learn to dance with people.
    I think it would be reasonable to prevent disruption, but simply changing to practicing lead when you have been a follow is hardly that. Its certainly not valid or reasonable to maintain an archaic "man leads woman" structure - a recap is a dance class too, not a social pairing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    This is a partner dance? With a defined role of lead and follow yes? It is naturally divisive.
    Yes of course, and that is why there should be more people learning both lead and follow roles - its good for them and its good for MJ generally.

    Ceroc is a social club - society does not change from one side of the venue doors to the other; you may wish it to be otherwise, but some people will still be arrogant butt holes and some will still be lecherous perverts and most will still be uncomfortable with same sex getting intimate with each other.
    I have never seen anyone get intimate at a Ceroc venue, same sex or otherwise. Dancing does not count, because touching etc...is really kind of necessary and no more intimate than any other pursuit that involves that victorian evil of "touching".

    Ceroc is not aimed at you or me - it's aimed at 'them': the general public.
    I am the general public. Not all of them obviously, just one of them!

    Skin colour, age, size, race, religion are all meaningless in terms of dancing. In Ceroc, even ability means very little. But Dance (in all it's forms) is so entwined with sex and sexuality that you cannot make it asexual.
    I think it is amusing that you can say "skin colour, age etc..." are all meaningless in terms of dancing but sex is not. I think you are taking a limited view of dance. Street Dance, African Bush Dance, Scottish Highland Dancing with your Granny, Night Club 2 step...are they all entwined with sex and sexuality ? I don't think they are - a lot of partner dances can be, yes, but it is as much about cameraderie as sex. A shared moment of joy is not necessarily a precursor to booking a hotel room. And where you do a partner dance regularly as a hobby, then clearly it is mainly about the dance, not a social courting event .


    The closest anyone else has been to them will have been lovers and family. You're not family. That pulls you towards the 'lover'.
    No it doesn't...false conclusion! It pulls you toward "dance partner", any other label you want to apply is up to you as an individual, depending on your tasts, preconceptions, upbringing, weirdness quotient etc...


    With a moral upbringing that respects other people. With an instilled biblical sense of "right" and "wrong".
    Biblical right and wrong is pretty much discredited nowadays. And how can a moral upbringing that respects other people not allow people to learn dance if they happen to be the same sex - doesn't sound like respect, it sounds more like dissaproval.

    It takes time to understand that a dance is just a dance.
    For some people, I'm sure it does, but I'm also sure they have trouble with social events generally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I'm sure there's an equal amount of people who are turned off of partner dancing because its so entwined with sex and sexuality, to those who come 'because' of it ..
    I'm not sure any two people have have the same preconception on what a modern jive night is going to entail. If they start going, they may or may not like it for whatever reason. Thats life.

    Take those 'first nighters' for instance.. some come along 'with' their other halves and I should imagine its quite hard for a lot of couples to see 'their' partners, dancing with the opposite sex all night. A lot of insecurities will be highlighted but if some of the partners were of the same sex, it could be quite reassuring Showing that its NOT just all about sex, its about 'the dance'!
    Indeed. There is a huge social element to any dance night, and in that respect it isn't just about the dance - you do get favourite dancers, favourite people and, heaven forbid, friends. So it would be reassuring for your actual partner to see a dance night for what it is - a social pursuit

    Also, I know if I were in the line up on my first night and a man 'accidentally' brushed my boob, I'd be far more suspicious than if a woman did! And for some, that might be enough to turn them off of coming back!
    I probably waited to brush your boob on the 3rd or 4th dance we had - and then approximately every 4 dances after that. Thats about the right ratio

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    To go back to the original point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Next day I spoke to the franchisee who backed her manager saying she was a good manager, and did not want to upset or lose her, but not only that she also said ladies would be uncomfortable dancing with other ladies, and the taxi dancers would feel threatened by having a good dancer in the beginner class, and it was for beginners only, which is what I am where leading is concerned! To cut a long story short, I have danced the past two weeks in the practice, checking with the taxi's if it was ok, and the ladies how they felt, as the Franchisee & Manager were absent, and they were all more than fine, in fact very pleased to have me there. but now I've had a message left on my answer machine telling to cease again.
    Speaking from the point of view of someone who learned to dance lead several years ago...

    The majority of ladies do not feel threatened or uncomfortable dancing with other ladies on a beginner class situation. Some do, it's true - but by far the overwhelming majority are quite happy to dance with another lady. Even more so, if it's a case of wildly unbalanced numbers! We'd rather dance, than spend most of the class queuing to move around. (In fact, from my experience, that's more the reason that beginners don't return - the imbalance of numbers meaning we have to watch from the sides all too often).

    Even total beginners are grateful to the experienced ladies who help out as leaders. It's easier to help them, as we can put ourselves in their shoes. I think this vastly outweighs any issues with intimacy.

    Anyway - on that subject - this is a Beginners Ceroc class! These classes are designed with this potential problem of intimacy in mind. It's designed not to be up close and personal. It's not blues! It's not even the close hold of ballroom dancing. I mean, only a few years ago they changed the hold in the Comb & the way it was taught to make sure you can keep your distance if you chose to!

    Mayhem & Twirly - please don't let this get in the way of you learning to lead. Personally, I found that learning to lead helped my following to improve immensely. And the vast vast vast majority of women will be appreciative of your unselfishness willingness to help out when there's unbalanced numbers.

    As far as your review class goes, Mayhem, I think you'll just have to accept that the Taxi Manager is being unreasonable, but nothing you will say will make her change her mind, I fear. It's probably down to her own low confidence level. See if you can arrange a dance or two with some more experienced ladies during the freestyle, and ask them if they'd mind if you practiced on them. That often worked for me.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Why would those people come to a partner dance like MJ? There is pole dancing, belly dancing, contemporary dancing (which is 100% female around here.) and others.
    When I was at primary school, we did 'country dancing' and my partner happened to be a boy called Toby Ross (hello Toby, if your out there ) he was about a foot shorter than me and believe me, there was nothing remotely sexual about it...

    ... but, I absolutely LOVED those lessons and I liked the fact we had partners.. as it made it more FUN!

    So, I wonder what that was all about then

    Sadly BigD, I think all too many people think like you and it prevents a lot of people ever starting 'partner dancing', as they believe, as do some of my non-dancing friends, that everyone who goes, must go, to get some kind of sexual gratification.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    I probably waited to brush your boob on the 3rd or 4th dance we had - and then approximately every 4 dances after that. Thats about the right ratio
    Ahh that explains why every 4th dance is better than the rest. I'm getting my sexual gratification!
    Last edited by Lory; 28th-April-2009 at 06:40 PM.
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Ahh that explains why every 4th dance is better than the rest. I'm getting my sexual gratification!
    Yes, both me and biddjiver go by that ratio

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Yes, both me and biddjiver go by that ratio
    It'd be even funnier, if I didn't think there was 'some' truth in that
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Yes, both me and biddjiver go by that ratio
    I've been missing out. I must increase my ratio to make up for it.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I daresay many more beginner ladies have been put off by sleazy/seedy/inconsiderate men than by having to dance with another female.


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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    ... Sadly BigD, I think all too many people think like you and it prevents a lot of people ever starting 'partner dancing', as they believe, as do some of my non-dancing friends, that everyone who goes, must go, to get some kind of sexual gratification...
    I am well aware that love of dancing is the main motivation.

    I have been at a considerable disadvantage in this thread because I have done a lot of statistical analyses on the Ceroc Central database, and have been wrestling with confidentially and other issues.

    As could be expected there are men that deter first timers from returning.

    Unexpectedly there also appear to be women that tend to deter first timer ladies when they are present, and there are women taxi-dancers that appear to deter them even more. There are, predictably far more taxi dancers that do a good job in retaining recruits, and there are some that have incredible records.

    As well as the statistical data I have the experience of a local venue that was damaged, perhaps even fatally damaged, by ladies who wanted to lead. There was a surplus of experienced male dancers. I used to leave early to reduce competition for ladies, believing it to be for the good of the venue. I wanted it to succeed.

    Some ladies would arrive after the class and dance together. Then they would dance with other ladies as leads, increasing the leader imbalance even more. I regularly left early. I do not have the benefits of the stats in this case, but we did not do a good job of retaining men or ladies, and the venue folded.

    As I posted, I am with the franchisee on this one.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post

    In particular, I'd have to question why organisers think follows are going to be traumatized by dancing with a woman (despite lots of anecdotal evidence to the contrary), and yet they ignore the many leads creepy enough to really traumatize beginners.


    This is SUCH a valid comment. I've known followers with a year's experience being reduced to tears/hiding in the loos to avoid certain creepy leads. Even though managers have been made aware, the men are still around. I can appreciate the predicament the managers are in, but it must affect the likelihood of beginners/more experienced followers returning to that venue. The follower has to either become a 'selective refuser' (not really an option for a beginner) or stop going to the venue.

    So THANK YOU to all you completely fabulous leads who keep us coming back for more!!

    I wonder if a poll would be of any interest to ceroc franchisees?

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    As well as the statistical data I have the experience of a local venue that was damaged, perhaps even fatally damaged, by ladies who wanted to lead.
    ~snip~

    Some ladies would arrive after the class and dance together. Then they would dance with other ladies as leads, increasing the leader imbalance even more.
    Oh please...

    ... these ladies obviously liked dancing together and if they weren't allowed to, then they may not have turned up at all. So, the imbalance would have remained the same (not increased) but the venue would have simply been 2x entrance fees down!
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    And further more..

    most venues have women over and I know I'd rather dance with another woman any day, than have to queue up or not dance at all..

    A big thank you to all you lovely ladies who CAN and DO lead me so beautifully, from time to time
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Am I missing the point of this thread entirely. I'm not picking up anything that tells me the venue is discouraging Mayhem from leading - just discouraging her from going into the refresher class. I don't agree with the venue's reasoning but it is clearly their choice about the criteria for permitting access to the refresher class. Outside of that Mayhem is free to lead to her heart's content.

    Some good stuff about same-sex dancing. I do agree with those that have said that male follows would possibly cause the average beginner male to run for cover. I suspect that male follows will continue to be a rarer occurrence than female leads for some time to come. I don't agree it's homophobia either, some people simply have different thresholds and we need to respect that.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    You are invading a stranger's personal space and trusting yourself with them (or asking them to trust you): The closest anyone else has been to them will have been lovers and family.

    You're not family. That pulls you towards the 'lover'. You don't have to be homophobic to be uncomfortable with dancing with a same sex partner. You don't have an "attitude" because you don't like dancing with same sex partners. These are beginners - most of whom will never have partner danced before. Most would be mortified by an accidental brushing of boob or bum of the opposite sex. And you expect them to be 100% OK with having a stranger of the same sex put their hands over them and move them about?
    I wonder what these guys would say about that?


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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    these ladies obviously liked dancing together and if they weren't allowed to, then they may not have turned up at all. So, the imbalance would have remained the same (not increased) but the venue would have simply been 2x entrance fees down!
    Only if they only dance with each other. If they lead, there is less opportunity for males to lead.

    The ladies who turned up themselves benefit. Some other ladies probably also benefited in the short term.

    They were bad news for male leads who did the class, but then have less opportunity to freestyle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I, like most people on here, can't understand what the problem is.

    Surely, having people at a venue who can both lead and follow, is a bonus for everyone?
    See above. It is good for a subset of people, and bad for others. Being good for everyone depends on the implicit qualifications you place on the everyone set.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    ...most venues have women over and I know I'd rather dance with another woman any day, than have to queue up or not dance at all..

    A big thank you to all you lovely ladies who CAN and DO lead me so beautifully, from time to time
    I don't believe anyone is disputing it is of benefit in your situation, or to the OP.

    The question is whether that outweighs any disbenefit to others.

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