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Thread: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Maybe some can't remember the very early days, or don't understand that for a lot of people it takes some courage to attend a dance class for the first time.
    I'm sure that most would agree that the more people doing MJ the better? So I am not sure that greeting them with non-traditional same-sex dancing is actually a good thing from that point of view.
    Forget the political correctness that some tend to spout on here for a moment, in reality what do you think most blokes would do if they entered a hall to see blokes dancing with blokes in the class (?!?). And there are plenty of reports of ladies saying they feel uncomfortable being forced to dance with other ladies in the class, and I have heard anecdotle evidence of ladies not returning after that.

    Freestyles, where people can turn others down for reasons of 'uncomfortableness' if they wish has a natural get-out. I personally don't know anyone who thinks same-sex dancing is 'negative' in freestyles. (Mind, if all the blokes, or all the ladies, started only dancing with each other, I am sure there would be one or two complaints )

    Classes don't have that get-out, at least not without creating a scene. This is where I feel there is at least a question to be asked about whether there are any negative benefits for the evening as a whole.
    BUT, I take the point about lack of leaders and other arguments made in this thread. I just point out it's not a straightforward as some on here seem to think, or maybe wish.


    And there is the last thing. Same-sex dancing has no contrast, there's no Jordan to the Tatiana, or Tatiana to the Jordan, sorry, but same-sex dancing is just pants anyway!
    [Warning: that last sentence is my viewpoint only. I can cannot be held liable as I obviously have the dance appreciation of a tone deaf gerbil].

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    [Warning: that last sentence is my viewpoint only. I can cannot be held liable as I obviously have the dance appreciation of a tone deaf gerbil].
    Me and my tone-deaf Gerbil, Fluffy, take exception to that comment.
    Fluffy not only considers himself to have great dance appreciation, but also likes to dance with other male Gerbils during lessons.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    This thread really has made me see red

    And I don’t think it’s just because I did my first class as a lead last week. It was my second attempt – the first being 18 months ago, when there were too many men, and not enough women, so I chickened out. Having built my courage up again, I was somewhat disgruntled to find the same situation last week – which is virtually unheard of at that particular venue. But having screwed my courage up to give it a try, I decided that I’d paid my money just the same as all the men there, and that it was my choice to do the class as I wanted. Some of the women did seem a little puzzled when I got to them, but I just smiled at them, asked how they were and chatted a little. And they seemed fine about it.

    I did get questioned in the review class – one of the guys turned to me and said, puzzled, “you’re not a beginner are you – didn’t I see you demo-ing the other week?!” Everyone in the class seemed fine with my being there as a lead and in fact, they’d have had two follows over instead of one if I hadn’t been there (three in fact, as the guy who questioned me was an experienced lead who was there helping out too – he wouldn’t have known about the demo-ing if he hadn’t been in intermediates). So clearly, most of the men in the beginners class were fairly experienced - and there were only one or two men over during the first class, so they didn't have to wait long to get back on again. The female taxi seemed happy to dance with me afterwards too – in fact she was positively encouraging.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Their attitude is perfectly valid and reasonable
    I’m sorry, but as Stokie, said this is homophobic. Would you think such attitudes were “reasonable” if a franchisee refused to admit someone to the class because they were too old, or black? In freestyle, each to their own – but the inclusive attitude that Ceroc generally encourages makes everyone feel welcome and the majority to have fun as a consequence. In class, and review class, you dance with whoever the next person is, or you get a fixed partner if you’re that fussy.

    And if someone really is worried that they may be “shown up” by a follow learning to lead in the beginners review class, then they must be a pretty appalling lead!

    I would love to know the justification for the franchisee’s decision – and somewhat heavy handed techniques. I cannot quite believe they went to the effort to phone you to ask you to desist!

    One last point, I suspect that what they are doing could be illegal under sex discrimination legislation. (Where are you Mr. Shnikov?!). Unless the rules of Ceroc or the franchise specifically state that men must lead and women must follow – but I doubt that any such condition is in place.

    I hope that you can persuade this venue that their current attitude is short-sighted, misguided and potentially illegal as well as ethically questionable, and that you learn to lead by taking full advantage of the class that you have, after all, paid for. Best of luck!

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Can't quite believe we've got to page 3 of this thread without anyone alluding to the erotic nature of 2 women in little black dresses dancing with each other !

    I dance as a girl sometimes (extremely poorly) with Maxine among others, and it does really help appreciate how hard it is to do the other half's role.

    Also I do look forward to a turn around the floor with DTS and get some very strange looks sometimes, and at Storm at Camber two women came and separated us saying how wrong it was !

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Most of the female beginners I have lead are happy to be led by a female - even close hold blues. The odd one is uncomfortable and if I sense this even after intros I will offer to swap partners (very rare as introducing yourself normally puts people at ease - which to be honest is same whether the person your about to dance with is male or female).

    I find that most female beginners like the fact they are led by an experienced follower as they feel less intimidated to ask advice during the lesson when they are not sure of something...

    ...on the other hand () it could be just ego getting in the way at intermediate classes! Not sure how well it is taken when after the class the followers say that the female leads is the only one who "got" tonights moves

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    Cool Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Me View Post
    No. I am afraid it is far from valid or reasonable. This person (regardless of gender) is paying cash to learn to dance with people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Playing the devils advocate here...

    No, they are not paying cash to learn to dance with people. They are paying to enter a social club that teaches folk how to dance with each other and provides an environment for people to practice dancing. The organisers 'job' is to maintain the social rules and provide the best environment they can for all the people.
    **naughty devil's advocate is playing splitty-splitty-hair-hair**

    Taken directly from the front page of www.ceroc.com:
    Going to a Ceroc evening is a great way to meet people, have fun and keep fit all whilst learning to dance.
    It would seem to me very much like Ceroc are saying that they will be taking your cash and in return you will be having an evening that involves meeting people, having fun and keeping fit all whilst learning to dance.

    Everything about going to a Ceroc evening, according to their website, is based around you learning to dance. Not join our Ceroc social club with fringe benefits
    Last edited by StokeBloke; 27th-April-2009 at 06:16 PM.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusj View Post
    Can't quite believe we've got to page 3 of this thread without anyone alluding to the erotic nature of 2 women in little black dresses dancing with each other !
    Or even the erotic nature of two hunky, fit blokes dancing together. Don't underestimate it! Holds me spellbound!

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusj View Post
    I dance as a girl sometimes.
    Yes, but do you follow?

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    ... Everything about going to a Ceroc evening, according to their website, is based around you learning to dance. Not join our Ceroc social club with fringe benefits
    Commercially it is the "having fun" that is most important.

    I don't know, I have not checked, is there anywhere on the Ceroc website that shows same sex partners?

    How much income do you think the average first-timer will bring in in their Ceroc lifetime?

    How many people will they tell of their good/bad experience?

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    Review classes must be teaching something useful, otherwise why would anybody bother running them - so Mayhem should be entitled to join in.
    Really a separate issue whether Mayhem is entitled to join in and whether it is useful to her.

    On usefulness review classes designed for beginners to the dance. Not for experienced dancers in the other role. The taxis are focused on teaching beginners to the dance. The issues a role switcher are trying to work may well be very different from those of a beginner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Feet View Post
    Not commonplace? It certainly is in the beginners class where I dance, there are always women leading, not just taxis. Some women beginners ...
    The commonplace referred to female/female AND male/male. It is the male/male bit that isn't common place (in my experience) in a beginner environment.

    If your experience is different I'd be interested to hear it.

  11. #51
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    No. I am afraid it is far from valid or reasonable. This person (regardless of gender) is paying cash to learn to dance with people. That's dance... not have sex with... dance. When I DANCE with people it does not matter to me one jot what gender they are
    I suspect you're not in the majority there, but assuming you are, people come to dance for lots of reasons, some of which are not entirely compatible with same sex dancing. Is yours the only legitimate one.

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    This whole thing just stinks of misplaced homophobia. So the taxi needs to talk to 'leads and follows' and not to 'guys and girls'. Whooptie doo da. They are there to help people learn to dance, if they find that they are uncomfortable with females leading then I suggest that the problem is with their own insecurities.
    The problem may well be their own insecurities, but if they walk out as beginners, they're not going to get over them.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusj View Post

    I dance as a girl sometimes
    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Yes, but do you follow?
    now gav my thoughts were what does he mean sometimes

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I’m sorry, but as Stokie, said this is homophobic.
    Something may be out of the comfort zone and not why someone came to dance. Calling it unambiguously homophobic seems a a bit excessive when you cannot know the motivations involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Would you think such attitudes were “reasonable” if a franchisee refused to admit someone to the class because they were too old, or black?
    I don't see the relevance. They aren't being refused admission, just not getting taught both roles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    One last point, I suspect that what they are doing could be illegal under sex discrimination legislation.
    I don't see the discrimination.

    Everyone is taught one role; it is balanced. I suspect far more balanced/less discriminatory than is typically the case.

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    Cool Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    The problem may well be their own insecurities, but if they walk out as beginners, they're not going to get over them.
    I was talking about this petulant Queen of the Taxi dancers who seems to be the only one having a problem with this. I firmly suggest that she may be a badger fancier who is in denial, and unfortunately a position of (a teeny weeny bit) of power. It would seem that the rest of the sorry shower in this story are just 'backing her up'.

    Shame on Ceroc HQ for washing its hands and not sorting this little issue out when it was brought to their attention

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Really a separate issue whether Mayhem is entitled to join in and whether it is useful to her.
    You seemed to be implying that as there were other ways for her to learn it didn't matter if she wasn't allowed to attend the review class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frodo
    As an experienced follower you have other routes to learn other than the beginners review class. I doubt the male followers learned in the beginners review class.
    I would contest that. If I was seriously trying to learn to lead review classes would be a major resource, targetted as they are on teaching the beginner's moves.


    On usefulness review classes designed for beginners to the dance. Not for experienced dancers in the other role. The taxis are focused on teaching beginners to the dance.
    I just don't see this distinction - part of the content of a beginner's class might be directed at a beginner to the dance but much of it will be appropriate for beginners to each role.

    The issues a role switcher are trying to work may well be very different from those of a beginner.
    Maybe, at times, but this is not a sufficient reason to exclude a willing pupil.


    The commonplace referred to female/female AND male/male. It is the male/male bit that isn't common place (in my experience) in a beginner environment.
    If your experience is different I'd be interested to hear it.[/QUOTE]I agree that the problem would be much more difficult if a man wanted to attend classes as a follower. In fact I think it would cause large-scale walkouts or other avoidance tactics. Even so it is now commonplace to see men dancing together at big venues and weekenders. However, there's a big gap between accepting that a minority of men are happy to dance together and accepting it as an activity that the majority will join in with. I don't personally see what all the fuss is about but I do accept that many MJ men will not be happy about dancing with other men. Until they drag themselves into the 21st century they might like to watch this.

    There's no need to be too shocked, guys, they're brothers.

    I don't think that the same kind of attitudes prevail with women as they tend to be more comfortable with physical touch and more relaxed about their sexuality than many men, as well as being much more habituated to seeing other women dance together. I still find women who go all out to avoid having to have a same-sex dance partner somewhat pathetic, though.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    This is a partner dance? With a defined role of lead and follow yes? It is naturally divisive. Ladies want the gentlemen to act like gentlemen and gentlemen want the ladies to act like ladies.
    Some ladies can act the role of a gentleman better than some gents, and some gents can act the role of a lady better than some ladies.

    Ceroc is a social club - society does not change from one side of the venue doors to the other; you may wish it to be otherwise, but some people will still be arrogant butt holes and some will still be lecherous perverts and most will still be uncomfortable with same sex getting intimate with each other.
    Ceroc is not aimed at you or me - it's aimed at 'them': the general public. And if it is seen that you have to dance with a same sex partner and it stops 'them' from attending the venue I agree with stopping the practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    ...I decided that I’d paid my money just the same as all the men there, and that it was my choice to do the class as I wanted.
    I have paid my money: I will dance only with those I deem worthy to dance with. I will walk across the floor with my drinks because I have to sit there and the bar is here. I will lift my partner in the air, throw and catch them because I am good enough to do so. If you are not giving me a good enough dance I will simply stop and walk off the floor. I am here to dance - I will use any space on the dance floor to perform to the music; it's not my fault other people get in my way. I will do lewd things with my partner in full view of everyone else. I will stand on the edge of the floor and watch all the pretty young ladies jiggling about. I will do the moves my way in class and talk through what the teacher is saying. Why not? I have paid my money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I’m sorry, but as Stokie, said this is homophobic. Would you think such attitudes were “reasonable” if a franchisee refused to admit someone to the class because they were too old, or black? In freestyle, each to their own – but the inclusive attitude that Ceroc generally encourages makes everyone feel welcome and the majority to have fun as a consequence. In class, and review class, you dance with whoever the next person is, or you get a fixed partner if you’re that fussy.
    Skin colour, age, size, race, religion are all meaningless in terms of dancing. In Ceroc, even ability means very little. But Dance (in all it's forms) is so entwined with sex and sexuality that you cannot make it asexual.

    You are invading a stranger's personal space and trusting yourself with them (or asking them to trust you): The closest anyone else has been to them will have been lovers and family. You're not family. That pulls you towards the 'lover'. You don't have to be homophobic to be uncomfortable with dancing with a same sex partner. You don't have an "attitude" because you don't like dancing with same sex partners. These are beginners - most of whom will never have partner danced before. Most would be mortified by an accidental brushing of boob or bum of the opposite sex. And you expect them to be 100% OK with having a stranger of the same sex put their hands over them and move them about? It's not being 'fussy' or a 'prude' : It's being brought up with manners, etiquette and decorum. With a moral upbringing that respects other people. With an instilled biblical sense of "right" and "wrong".
    It takes time to understand that a dance is just a dance. That you can get up close and personal without violating your ethics or damning your immortal soul to eternal fire and damnation.


    {And for some this 'time' is measured in seconds rather than days/weeks }
    One last point, I suspect that what they are doing could be illegal under sex discrimination legislation. (Where are you Mr. Shnikov?!). Unless the rules of Ceroc or the franchise specifically state that men must lead and women must follow – but I doubt that any such condition is in place.
    Some of the banners actually say "Men- you lead. Ladies- you follow: try and let the men lead." or words to that effect.

    Personally, any time I am writing or talking about the roles I try and use "lead" and "follow" rather than "men" and "women"

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Taken directly from the front page of www.ceroc.com:
    Going to a Ceroc evening is a great way to meet people, have fun and keep fit all whilst learning to dance.
    It would seem to me very much like Ceroc are saying that they will be taking your cash and in return you will be having an evening that involves meeting people, having fun and keeping fit all whilst learning to dance.

    Everything about going to a Ceroc evening, according to their website, is based around you learning to dance. Not join our Ceroc social club with fringe benefits
    Yup.
    And how many folk would "have fun" if they had to dance with the same sex all night?

    Sorry to all the devilishly handsome blokes out there, but I actually have fun dancing with women - they are much prettier, smell nicer, and move with more grace. I love the female form and being able to have it respond to my touch is exciting, thrilling and fun. Having another man at my fingers may be amusing and entertaining, but just doesn't do it for me the way a woman can.

    BTW It's an important hair-splitting: The organisers are providing and maintaining the best environment they can for dancers. They are the ones who are entitled to make the decisions and make the rules; not the dancers themselves. The organisers are responsible for policing the rules and giving the dancers the best opportunity for enjoying themselves. If they say this is how it's going to be, then the dancer either conforms, finds another venue or tries to get the ruling over-turned. Because it's their venue, their night and their rules, then they had every right to impose a ruling. They could say you're not allowed to dance freestyle unless you include at least one hallelujah in every dance.
    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    The problem may well be their own insecurities, but if they walk out as beginners, they're not going to get over them.
    No, they are not. It's not about overcoming insecurities, it's about dancing. And they are not going to return to learn that. And they are not going to bring their cash back either.

    You feel victimised and don't return to the venue: one less attendance. Two beginners feel uncomfortable and don't return: two less attendances that will never be repeat customers. That's double the money lost. It makes economic sense to stop a practice that may turn folk away.

    Similarly it would make economic sense (when there is a massive excess of followers) to put on a special class for followers wanting to learn to lead (or visa versa): at least it's advertised and people can join/avoid without any stigma.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    But Dance (in all it's forms) is so entwined with sex and sexuality
    -snip-
    These are beginners - most of whom will never have partner danced before. Most would be mortified by an accidental brushing of boob or bum of the opposite sex.
    I've been sitting here, trying to make sense of everything you've written but to me, the whole lot contradicts itself...

    I'm sure there's an equal amount of people who are turned off of partner dancing because its so entwined with sex and sexuality, to those who come 'because' of it ..

    Take those 'first nighters' for instance.. some come along 'with' their other halves and I should imagine its quite hard for a lot of couples to see 'their' partners, dancing with the opposite sex all night. A lot of insecurities will be highlighted but if some of the partners were of the same sex, it could be quite reassuring Showing that its NOT just all about sex, its about 'the dance'!

    Also, I know if I were in the line up on my first night and a man 'accidentally' brushed my boob, I'd be far more suspicious than if a woman did! And for some, that might be enough to turn them off of coming back!

    A lot of my NON dancing friends make jokes that Ceroc is some sort of secret undercover swingers club. They can't get it into their heads, that people go, just for the pure love of dancing and I'm afraid, reading stuff like this..... the fact you 'have' to dance with the opposite sex, just goes to reinforce these views.
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    A lot of my NON dancing friends make jokes that Ceroc is some sort of secret undercover swingers club.
    As a friend of mine says .... Ceroc Ceroc the knocking shop

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Yes, but do you follow?
    As long as they yank hard enough !

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    I’d just like to clarify one thing – I am not talking about same sex dancing. I am talking about women being allowed to lead in class, and in review class. Nowhere have I suggested (or anyone else) that people should be forced to dance in freestyle with members of the same sex.

    What I also don’t understand from Mayhem’s original post is why, if the venue wish to discourage same sex dancing, she was allowed to do the beginners class as a lead, but prevented from doing the review class? Surely she should be barred from doing both, or neither?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    This is a partner dance? With a defined role of lead and follow yes? It is naturally divisive. Ladies want the gentlemen to act like gentlemen and gentlemen want the ladies to act like ladies.
    Most of the time – yes. But it’s not a strict rule, so far as I’m aware. If it is, then women should not be allowed to lead, end of story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Ceroc is a social club - society does not change from one side of the venue doors to the other; you may wish it to be otherwise, but some people will still be arrogant butt holes and some will still be lecherous perverts and most will still be uncomfortable with same sex getting intimate with each other.
    So does that mean that such attitudes should be indulged and therefore encouraged? Just because a man is lecherous, or hurts his partner, should the woman (or man who is following) just put up with it, or should they do something about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Ceroc is not aimed at you or me - it's aimed at 'them': the general public. And if it is seen that you have to dance with a same sex partner and it stops 'them' from attending the venue I agree with stopping the practice.
    I disagree. Ceroc is aimed at me. I was once a beginner, and I carried on doing it. I still get something from classes, or I wouldn't go. And clearly Mayhem does too. What about protecting and encouraging the existing, repeat customer who has shown loyalty and longevity and has already given you lots of business? If you continually encourage new customers at the expense of the old, you’ll end up with a class permanently full of beginners as the established dancers get bored and go off to do something else. And so your beginners will never progress – dancing with those with more experience is one way to improve your dancing. If there aren’t any, then the venue will stagnate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I have paid my money: I will dance only with those I deem worthy to dance with. I will walk across the floor with my drinks because I have to sit there and the bar is here. I will lift my partner in the air, throw and catch them because I am good enough to do so. If you are not giving me a good enough dance I will simply stop and walk off the floor. I am here to dance - I will use any space on the dance floor to perform to the music; it's not my fault other people get in my way. I will do lewd things with my partner in full view of everyone else. I will stand on the edge of the floor and watch all the pretty young ladies jiggling about. I will do the moves my way in class and talk through what the teacher is saying. Why not? I have paid my money.
    Not the same thing at all Those are issues of common courtesy, safety or actual rules (no aerials). The venue I was dancing at has female leads, therefore it is not against the rules. As we have enshrined in law in this country gender equality, I did nothing wrong by leading. I came specifically to do the beginners class for the first time. Why should a man, purely because he’s a man, take priority over me in beginners class when he’s a competent lead and then does the intermediate class? Why could one of them not have stepped out of the class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Skin colour, age, size, race, religion are all meaningless in terms of dancing.
    Not if someone is prejudiced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    In Ceroc, even ability means very little. But Dance (in all it's forms) is so entwined with sex and sexuality that you cannot make it asexual.
    In beginners class and beginners review class?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    You are invading a stranger's personal space and trusting yourself with them (or asking them to trust you): The closest anyone else has been to them will have been lovers and family. You're not family. That pulls you towards the 'lover'. You don't have to be homophobic to be uncomfortable with dancing with a same sex partner. You don't have an "attitude" because you don't like dancing with same sex partners. These are beginners - most of whom will never have partner danced before. Most would be mortified by an accidental brushing of boob or bum of the opposite sex. And you expect them to be 100% OK with having a stranger of the same sex put their hands over them and move them about? It's not being 'fussy' or a 'prude' : It's being brought up with manners, etiquette and decorum. With a moral upbringing that respects other people. With an instilled biblical sense of "right" and "wrong".

    It takes time to understand that a dance is just a dance. That you can get up close and personal without violating your ethics or damning your immortal soul to eternal fire and damnation.
    Biblical? In a Ceroc class?! The bible hasn’t had any influence on my attitudes to right and wrong since I was about 15, and luckily for me I live in a very diverse society, both spiritually and culturally. I’m afraid that this comes across as one step away from US Baptist minister ethics.

    Whilst I might disagree with the level of sexuality you see in a simple dance, I do take your point with regard to intimacy. But I find this ludicrous in terms of the beginners class. As I said at the start, we are not talking about dancing in freestyle, or blues dancing. At the end of the review class, I was chatting to some of the follows as they wanted to know stuff about Ceroc. Before parting, I did say to them “if anyone fancies letting me practise all 4 of my new beginners moves on the, then do come and ask me” as I wouldn’t dream of putting them on the spot by asking them to dance. I was even pretty hesitant about asking the female taxi if I could lead her!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I love the female form and being able to have it respond to my touch is exciting, thrilling and fun. Having another man at my fingers may be amusing and entertaining, but just doesn't do it for me the way a woman can.
    Now who’s coming across as a perv?! Just how do you think that would make a beginner feel, if they knew that was going through your head when you danced with them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    BTW It's an important hair-splitting: The organisers are providing and maintaining the best environment they can for dancers. They are the ones who are entitled to make the decisions and make the rules; not the dancers themselves.
    I agree – but I also think that such decisions should be questioned. I would still love to know the reasons behind the decision to ban Mayhem from just the review class.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Also, I know if I were in the line up on my first night and a man 'accidentally' brushed my boob, I'd be far more suspicious than if a woman did! And for some, that might be enough to turn them off of coming back!
    Totally agree. There are a number of men women are obliged to dance with in class who are so pervy that it can put beginners off. When I first started, there were men in class whom I dreaded having to run through the moves with. None of the women leads were a problem, and I’d get to ask their advice on things as well.

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