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Thread: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

  1. #21
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    But not common place for people starting dancing.
    Not commonplace? It certainly is in the beginners class where I dance, there are always women leading, not just taxis. Some women beginners have even turned up who would prefer to dance with each other, or are happy to lead and see no distinction about who should lead, and who should follow. A good friend of mine, who also taxis, has had lots of women beginners tell her how much they like dancing with her - not just because she's an excellent lead - but also because they feel comfortable asking her questions about following too, as most women dancers can do both roles. So as a women leading who can follow well, you have loads to offer beginners - surely this can only benefit your venue?

    I agree with what other people have said - I'd vote with your feet. Even if there isn't another ceroc venue locally, is there any other organisation operating in your area?

  2. #22
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    But rotating in the beginners review class ?
    Why not???

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Have you considered it isn't about the other women. Experienced women leading in beginner review classes could reduce the number of male leaders that continue.
    how? as this happens all the time at all the venues i have ever been to in 10yrs of dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    But not common place for people starting dancing.
    sorry female leads are extremely common in the beginners class and the practice session as there are in normal circumstances far more females wanting to learn to dance than males


    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    The Taxis are doing a job helping/teaching beginners in the review class.

    Explanations are necessarily simplified and may use stereotypes to get the point across.

    Male followers and female leaders can give them a lot more to explain.

    this is just pure rubbish
    Also some of the things they tell the follower may not be strictly true, if relevant to the situation, and they may be afraid you won't go along with it.

    this is just pure rubbish i am an experienced taxi manager and change what i say depending on the people in the class
    its very easy to explain that later in the their dancing you will see men leading men although i have to admit i have never seen a male follow in a beginners class or a practice session i certainly would not be the one to question it (females leading females has been socially aceptable for many many years by the way)
    oh and we are not there to teach just to lead a practie session


    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Their attitude is perfectly valid and reasonable,
    NO it is not
    again there are almost always lady leads in every class be it the main one or the practice session
    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    But if distance is an issue, perhaps consider buying a beginners move DVD.
    did you learn to dance by watching someone else on dvd????
    i think not
    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    As an experienced follower you have other routes to learn other than the beginners review class. I doubt the male followers learned in the beginners review class.
    no they didnt but it takes forever to do so
    by doing it through the normal ceroc lessons and practice session Mayhem should be able to complete the beginners moves in about 6 wks or so

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    No. I am afraid it is far from valid or reasonable. This person (regardless of gender) is paying cash to learn to dance with people. That's dance... not have sex with... dance. When I DANCE with people it does not matter to me one jot what gender they are, just as it wouldn't matter if I were to play badminton with them, or skittles or any other physical past-time. I lead guys quite happily, why shouldn't I? This whole thing just stinks of misplaced homophobia. So the taxi needs to talk to 'leads and follows' and not to 'guys and girls'. Whooptie doo da. They are there to help people learn to dance, if they find that they are uncomfortable with females leading then I suggest that the problem is with their own insecurities.

    I can find NOTHING anywhere to say that if you attend a Ceroc night then females MUST follow and MALES must lead. Dancing is (or at least should be) fun for all.


    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I don't know where this person dances (nor do I suggest any hint of naming and shaming) but there's a whole raft of places teaching Modern Jive, Ceroc is but one of them.
    I do know where she dances and the people involved as she asked me my opinion in person and its the same as you stokie although i did tell her to call ceroc hq and explain to see if they could do anything about it which sadly they cant as they allow the franchicee to decide on stuff like this.
    As everyone here knows i love ceroc with a passion and it saddens me to see this happening as it sours someones fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    why is it unacceptable for there to be more leads than follows?, and also why is it ok when there are too many follows for 'women' to take up the slack as leads, but not in this particular instance for a 'man' to have to stand out for a turn?!!
    it isnt unacceptable at all
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Once again thanks to everyone for their comeback, it has helped me to see that the negative response that I am experiencing is, as I expected, unique in Ceroc, and that i am not being unreasonable in my request to learn the 19 beginner moves as a novice like anyone else.
    i dont think it is unique in ceroc just unique in the franchise you dance at it certainly would not have happend at the franchise i
    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    no..nor in the main class.
    Just simply frowned upon and was told it would make other males uncomfortable especially beginners.
    because its still socially unaceptable which is a shame although as dancers we are trying to change this by letting more people see men leading men also as i said earlier there are almost always more women than men so to be honest all mayhem is doing by dancing lead (on most weeks) is helping out

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    this is a shame, not sure where you live Mayhem, but I have the habbit of poping up all over I would love you to lead me
    never seen you in chelmsford and yes you would love to dance with mayhem i know i do

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    19 !

    Just out of interest, do they really teach 19 moves in the beginner classes - I usually help when there is a surplus of followers (and have never had a problem with venue managers etc with this) I am a reasonable lead - but not sure if I know 19 moves
    yep there are 19 beginners moves in ceroc always used to be 25 til teh change a few years back
    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post

    Go girl !
    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    BTW, IMO, women leads are very similar to women drivers, when you get a good one they are often better then men
    oi minnie what are you trying to say?????????

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Hi Mayhem and welcome to the forum. There was another similar thread to this started by Martin about 6 months ago and he was arguing the point that ladies would not like to dance with other ladies. I am a lady who dances both lead and follow. When I was a taxi I always danced both the lesson and the review class as a man

    My view is yes a lot of ladies would prefer to dance with men if there were enough available men but the reality is at most venues there are not equal numbers. Also there are number of men that I am not that keen on dancing with but have to out of courtesy and do not see why that same courtesy can be extended to ladies.

    When I do freestyle there are still some ladies and guys that know that I can dance as a lead and will ask me to lead them.

    The only way around you current problem that I can see is that if you have a female friend who is willing to dance with you as a fixed partner for a few weeks in the intermediate class then at least you could improve your lead standard or find another venue with a more enlightened attitude.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Playing the devils advocate here...
    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    No. I am afraid it is far from valid or reasonable. This person (regardless of gender) is paying cash to learn to dance with people.
    No, they are not paying cash to learn to dance with people. They are paying to enter a social club that teaches folk how to dance with each other and provides an environment for people to practice dancing.
    The organisers 'job' is to maintain the social rules and provide the best environment they can for all the people. Of course you can't please all the people all the time, but if the organiser sees behaviour that they think is bad for the environment and social atmosphere they are trying to maintain/portray, then they can (& should) step in and take measures to prevent it.

    Normally these things are perving, dangerous dancing and less than welcoming attitude. But if an organiser thinks that same gender dancing in a revision class is detrimental to the club's atmosphere, then I can hold no fault with the action taken. In fact I would probably see the action as proving the organiser was trying to look after the club: I wouldn't expect to see many dangerous dancers or perverts tolerated in that venue .

    The only thing I would question would be the decision on why it was thought that same gender dancing in the revision class: there may be factors & information to be taken into account that are only available to the person who made the decision. Have you asked the person who made the decision why it was made? The only way to retract/reverse the decision is to identify the reasoning behind it and counter that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    The only way around you current problem that I can see is that if you have a female friend who is willing to dance with you as a fixed partner for a few weeks ~
    I would amend that to say if you find a friend who is willing to follow your lead, then practice with them. If that friend is a lead, then they will be harder for you to lead, but can probably give you good advice on how to improve your lead. If they are a follower, they will be easier to lead, but will be vaguer on how you can improve.
    I'm not really sure what the revision class will give you. You could grab a taxi during the freestyle and practice your lead on them: you have said that they have no problems with you leading. You will probably find that the really good dancers will be open to you leading them as well if you ask them: The best way to improve your dancing is by dancing.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    They are paying to enter a social club that teaches folk how to dance with each other and provides an environment for people to practice dancing.
    .


    and lets be honest , most people , patically at beginner level, expect and want to dance with the opposite sex

    BTW have you thought about finding man who wants to learn to follow

  6. #26
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    and lets be honest , most people , patically at beginner level, expect and want to dance with the opposite sex
    Actually, I just wanted to learn to dance when I was a beginner and I didn't care who with.

    Oh and socialising in my books, is mixing and making friends with both sexes, not just the opposite sex.
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Yea, but you're not "most people", are you now?

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Whoops
    Last edited by Sporty Jeff; 25th-April-2009 at 05:59 PM.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    19 !

    Just out of interest, do they really teach 19 moves in the beginner classes - I usually help when there is a surplus of followers (and have never had a problem with venue managers etc with this) I am a reasonable lead - but not sure if I know 19 moves

    (all the female leads mention on this thread are a joy to dance with - and they must have started in the beginners classes)

    Go girl !


    BTW, IMO, women leads are very similar to women drivers, when you get a good one they are often better then men
    Beginner moves I think: 1st move, 1st move pushspin, comb, slow comb,man spin, shoulder slide, step across, octopus, basket, side to side, yo-yo, back pass, ceroc spin, catapult, shoulder drop, arm jive, arm jive push spin, arm jive swizzle thats 18 can not think what 19 is

  10. #30
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporty Jeff View Post
    Beginner moves I think: 1st move, 1st move pushspin, comb, slow comb,man spin, shoulder slide, step across, octopus, basket, side to side, yo-yo, back pass, ceroc spin, catapult, shoulder drop, arm jive, arm jive push spin, arm jive swizzle thats 18 can not think what 19 is
    its the shoulder slide

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    its the shoulder slide
    Sorry had that

  12. #32
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporty Jeff View Post
    Sorry had that
    lol oops

  13. #33
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporty Jeff View Post
    Sorry had that
    just cheated and went on to a certain website its the "in and out"

  14. #34
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    just cheated and went on to a certain website its the "in and out"
    Ah the Ceroc classic move how did I forget that? Thanks at least I will be able to sleep now!

  15. #35
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporty Jeff View Post


    Ah the Ceroc classic move how did I forget that? Thanks at least I will be able to sleep now!
    If you find out how you forgot, can you tell me so I can sleep better too?

  16. #36
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    I think you should direct those saying "no" at the club to this thread! I started learning to lead when I had been dancing for about a year, one reason being that there was always more women than men and the ladies were getting one shot at the move before being moved off the floor for the next lot to have a go! Plus, it meant that, if me and my pals were out somewhere with no Ceroc guys, we could still get up and dance and, as I am always the tallest, I felt that duty fell to me! I didn't ask anyone if I could do it, and no-one said I couldn't. As far as I am aware, there have never been any complaints. I did feel when I started that perhaps some ladies were a bit uncomfortable with it, especially those new to dancing, as they have the stereotypical "man dancing with lady" in mind but as everyone has gotten to know me, I don't even think that's the case now. When I was a beginner, I recall the only reason I felt uncomfortable dancing with another lady was that generally, they were much shorter than me! Oh and two sets of boobs can sometimes get in the way!
    Perth and Dundee have quite a few ladies who dance lead, especially in the beginners class although there are also a few who do in the inter class too. Both of our Perth taxi girls lead and (I have been told) are very good at it! That's a comment I've often heard, and I think that often ladies are actually a better lead than many (but by no means all) men because having themselves been led they know what it takes to be a good lead. And IMO that's another reason that many of the best male dancers choose to be led, to see what they need to be doing to improve their lead.
    There are some fabulous lady leads out there (Tiggerbabe has the honour of being the best girl dance I have ever had!) and I thinks its very unfair that you are not being allowed to do it. IMO (again) I think more ladies should try it, because it will show them just exactly what a difficult time the guys actually have and I also believe it helps sharpen following skills, and I'm surprised the class teacher doesn't recognise that.
    I really hope there is a rethink on this and you get the chance to learn lead without having to tip toe round the management. I think you should just balls it out and do it, after all, the best leaders do have balls!

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    This sounds so odd. If you want to be a taxi dancer you HAVE to learn to be a lead. How can it be ok for one lady to learn the lead but not another...how would the beginners know the difference???
    I sometimes choose to do the repeat beginner's class as a lead, simply because I have been following for a number of years & don't want to do an intermediate class but want to help beginners. I've never been stopped from doing this, but if I had been I would have been shocked. As an experienced follower I can really empathise with beginner followers...they almost always think they have to remember the moves instead of concentrating on reading the lead. How on earth can a beginner follower 'feel' the lead from a beginner lead?

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Oh and socialising in my books, is mixing and making friends with both sexes, not just the opposite sex.
    I think that a lot of people - ladies especially - who may start coming to a dance class on their own, are looking to meet new people and make friends, not just learn to dance. When I started dancing, because I met men in the classes, and then danced with men, I didn't get to meet many women initially which felt a bit odd. A perfect way round this is for women to lead, so that they naturally come into contact with more women - I really think it can be welcoming for new women and a great way to foster new friendships.

  19. #39
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    I'm not sure where you live, but where I am there's more ceroc venues than mcdonald drive-throughs, - can't you just go to another venue?

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    FWIW I am with the franchisee on this one.

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