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Thread: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

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    Angry Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Hi All,
    I'm new to the forum today, but have joined here basically to discuss an issue I'm having at my local Ceroc venue, in the hope that someone can give me some ideas on how to tackle the problem...

    OK, I'm female, and a competent follow, but I now want to learn to lead to a good standard too. I am allowed to do the Beginners class with everyone else, but when I want to go into the beginners practice session I am stopped. The first time this happened it was our taxi manager who was taking the practice, and out of respect to the other beginners I did not say anything in front of the others and went through it as a follow. When I explained to her that I wanted to learn as a lead she told me I would have to just do it the way she did, just by trying to learn on the dance floor. I explained that a lot of men ask me to dance all the time, so it's hard for me to get the reinforcement of the moves. But no, she was adamant.

    Next day I spoke to the franchisee who backed her manager saying she was a good manager, and did not want to upset or lose her, but not only that she also said ladies would be uncomfortable dancing with other ladies, and the taxi dancers would feel threatened by having a good dancer in the beginner class, and it was for beginners only, which is what I am where leading is concerned! To cut a long story short, I have danced the past two weeks in the practice, checking with the taxi's if it was ok, and the ladies how they felt, as the Franchisee & Manager were absent, and they were all more than fine, in fact very pleased to have me there. but now I've had a message left on my answer machine telling to cease again.

    I've phoned H.O. but they say they can do nothing... and I was wondering if anyone else has had this dilemma, and if so what they did about it????

    Thanks folks
    Last edited by Mayhem; 24th-April-2009 at 06:34 PM.

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    Registered User FoxyFunkster's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Hi All,
    I'm new to the forum today, but have joined here basically to discuss an issue I'm having at my local Ceroc venue, in the hope that someone can give me some ideas on how to tackle the problem...

    OK, I'm female, and a competent follow, but I now want to learn to lead to a good standard too. I am allowed to do the Beginners class with everyone else, but when I want to go into the beginners practice session I am stopped. The first time this happened it was our taxi manager who was taking the practice, and out of respect to the other beginners I did not say anything in front of the others and went through it as a follow. When I explained to her that i wanted to learn as a lead she told me I would have to just do it the way she did, just by trying to learn on the dance floor. I explained that a lot of men ask me to dance all the time, so it's hard for me to get the reinforcement of the moves. But no, she was adamant.

    Next day I spoke to the franchisee who backed her manager saying she was a good manager, and did not want to upset or lose her, but not only that she also said ladies would be uncomfortable dancing with other ladies, and the taxi dancers would feel threatend by having a good dancer the beginner class, and it was for beginners only, which is what I am where leading is concerned. To cut a long story short, I have danced the past two weeks in the practice, checking with the taxi's if it was ok, and the ladies how they felt, as the Franchisee & Manager were absent, and they were all more than fine, in fact very pleased to have me there. but now I've had a message left on my answer machine telling to cease again.

    I've phoned H.O. but they say they can do nothing... and I was wondering if anyone else has had this dilemma, and if so what they did about it????

    Thanks folks
    I truly find this going against what the whole Ceroc thing should be about really and that is having fun and not taking the whole thing too seriously, I`m a ceroc teacher at a popular venue in central london and we have women leading women as well as men leading men, it is a source of amusement also, in fact i`ve even taught a role reversal class which everyone loved! As to what you can do about it??? I suggest talking to the teacher or Venue manager as i would be staggered if they agreed with the taxi leader.....anyway have fun either way, because thats the primary reason we go anyway....

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    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    This seems bizarre to me. Most venues seem to have more follows than leads, so I would have thought you would be encouraged rather than discouraged to lead!
    I've been dancing MJ for 14 years and it's the first time I've ever heard of this, (I lead and follow). Personally I would do what I wanted, you are the paying customer so it is up to you if you lead or follow. I would have thought they'd be unlikely to ban you for it!

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    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    I can see where they're coming from if there're more leaders than followers at that venue, but otherwise if you're paying to go you should really be able to decide what role you want to do.

    If you don't have an alternative venue to go to, and they're adamant about not allowing any females lead, then stick with being a leader in the first beginners class, and learn from that. All the female taxi's at our venues learnt being a leader this way - I don't think any of them did the beginners practise session. If you're a reasonable enough follow, and do the beginners practise class enough it'll sink in quickly enough. In my experience the classes are fairly easy to learn as a lead (I pick up the moves quickly even in intermediate), it's about practising in freestyle and doing it regularly enough to make it stick and get musical about it (not what I can be bothered to do).

    Otherwise, the best thing is to find a female who's willing to practise with you being a leader (or find a man who wants to learn to follow). Or you could ask about booking on a workshop as a leader? Will cost more, but you'll get more in depth teaching if that's what you want

    Hope it works out for you.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    In my rather limited experience of learning to lead I was strongly discouraged on one occasion from doing the reinforcement class as a lead. I think there were some valid reasons, like not enough followers, but I particularly wanted to go through the moves as a leader. I conformed to what other people wanted me to do on that occasion, but I remember thinking that I would make an issue of it if I was put in that position again. As my efforts to learn to lead have long since stalled, nothing further has happened.

    I guess in the large scrum that is the open beginner's class nobody is in a position to tell you not to lead - unless it was the teacher on the stage, and to be fair to Ceroc, I don't think that ever happens. But in the smaller-scale revision classes there's more potential for class leaders to dominate.

    I think the only possible reason for objecting to you leading in the revision class is because she knows or fears that some women there may be offended by the idea of dancing with another woman. I think this attitude is completely pathetic but I'm aware that some people think like this and the taxi manager might feel she has to take it into consideration. I know that when I have done some leading I have received a few negative vibes although most women are OK with it, if a bit puzzled.

    You could decide to combat this by taking your own fixed partner to the class with you. Also, wearing a t-shirt saying "I am not a lesbian and even if I was I wouldn't fancy you" might reassure some of the faint-hearted.


    we have women leading women as well as men leading men, it is a source of amusement also, in fact i`ve even taught a role reversal class which everyone loved!
    Seeing as this is now common place at many venues as well as weekenders I'm amazed that anyone turns a hair.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Thanks FoxF' it's reassuring that not every one in a position of power has that attitude. My problem is confounded by the fact that one of our teachers mother is the Taxi Manager who will not allow me to reinforce the class in the practice, despite the fact that all the other taxi dancers who I've spoken to (in a very unpressurised, discreet way you understand) are happy to have me there!! Got to admit, it's taking the shine off my evenings now as I just want to learn, and they are blocking me!...If only I lived closer to you!!!!

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    I am quite shocked at this. I am sure that the franchise owner has a good reason and it might be worth a chat with them when you are not at a venue.

    As a franchisee and teacher i have always encouraged my dancers to dance both lead and follow. I believe that in my own experience this broadens the understanding of the dance as people can see what it is like on the other side of the hand hold.

    I, like FF, have taught many role reversal classes, not only is it fun but again its enlightening.

    In my venues in Northern Ireland i have both men and women dancing both roles on a regular basis, often switching between during the dance. ( I now regularly dance in london and learned to dance (lead and follow) in Scotland and find them to be the same)

    I have had many women in the past approach me about becoming a better follow and i suggested they try leading, just once if they only want to, during a beginner class or review session, 9 times out of 10 the lady has come back to me saying that they have really learned from it.

    I would suggest either speaking again to the franchisee and reiterating your want to lead, make sure they know why you want to do it (eg you want to get your female friends up to dance when you are out/you want to have a better understanding of the dance/you quite like the idea of becoming a taxi etc etc) if this bears no fruit i would suggest trying to attend another ceroc class where this is "allowed". As a very last resort, organise to meet up with your female dancing friends and ask them to help you by following you and giving feedback.

    I learned to lead by grabbing a friend at a freestyle that had way more women than men and just giving it a go.

    Good luck with your attempts at leading and if you are ever dancing somewhere that i am please come up and grab me for a dance.... i might even let you lead!

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    The lack of enough good leads, and the fact that when I dance with my male friends who want to expand in to trying to follow to make the dance more fun is what has prompted me to expand my repertoire.

    Now here's the irony... I argued the lack of leads at our venue privately & in an unheated manner, & our Franchisee agreed and said that's one of the reasons why beginners leave because no-one will dance with them, and I said I would be happy to when I was competent enough to lead, she then said maybe I should think of taxiing, then I would have to learn Leading!

    I also said, well surely as a paying customer I should be allowed to chose what I wanted to do, but no, apparently not!!! I am NOT according to them a beginner despite never learning to do anything but follow so cant go to the beginner practice as our Taxi dancers will be uncomfortable... surely taxi dancers shouldn't be doing any taxiiing if they are uncomfortable as we ask them to dance with us in the freestyle, so we know their standards and abilities anyway, and who am I to criticise, they know more than me & they are helping me learn!

    It's so sad really when you look at the bigger picture and how Ceroc could be promoting dance, and retaining more customers... but what is truly comforting is that other Franchisees have a far more positive attitude and encourage out of the box thinking...Thank you, if I could I would be at one of your venues instead!
    Last edited by Mayhem; 24th-April-2009 at 08:54 PM.

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    Registered User Battlecat's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    I am sorry to hear that you are having such a difficult time learning to lead. I also wanted to learn and felt the revision class was a good way to do this. I never attended when there were plenty of leads, but did check if the taxis were ok with me joining in as a lead and always was made to feel welcome and supported.

    I am still not a good lead but it did make me a better follow and makes me appreciate the leaders and the difficult task they have. I hope you manage to get it sorted without it affecting your enjoyment.

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    Cool Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    I would be inclined to look for a new place to learn to dance at. The current one you are using does not seem to be fulfilling your requirements at all, they do not even sound willing to find some form of suitable compromise. You are a paying customer and you are paying in part to learn to dance. Vote with your feet Honey. There are many places that are only too willing to help people become the dancer that THEY wish to be. Most places would jump at the chance to have someone who who wants to expand their skills on the dance floor.

    As a side issue, all the female Ceroc teachers I know can lead. So it's not exactly like you're asking for something that's totally unheard of.

    To find more suitable and understanding classes in your area you could check out the uk-jive website Please be aware that what you have experienced is not the general Ceroc experience - most Ceroc places are very friendly and accommodating.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I would be inclined to look for a new place to learn to dance at. The current one you are using does not seem to be fulfilling your requirements at all, they do not even sound willing to find some form of suitable compromise. You are a paying customer and you are paying in part to learn to dance. Vote with your feet Honey.
    Please be aware that what you have experienced is not the general Ceroc experience - most Ceroc places are very friendly and accommodating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    Personally I would do what I wanted, you are the paying customer so it is up to you if you lead or follow. I would have thought they'd be unlikely to ban you for it!
    i agree with both these quotes completely

    As i know mayhem as a personal friend as do some of you on here i will say she is a very tollerant and helpful person who imho has been the victim of jealousy

    i have danced with the taxi manager in question and mayhem is a far stronger follow than she is

    the franchise mayhem dances with has teachers and taxis from both ends of the spectrum ie very good to pretty poor (again only my opinion)
    its also a shame that she would have to drive up to two hours to get to another ceroc venue so if she decided to vote with her feet ceroc would lose a very friendly competant dancer.

    just to add she isnt local to the venue or franchise i work at as we would have welcomed her with open arms

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    ...we have women leading women as well as men leading men...
    But rotating in the beginners review class ?

    in fact i`ve even taught a role reversal class which everyone loved!
    Several posters have mentioned role reversal classes, but I'm not clear how they're relevant. I've yet to see a role reversal class taught to beginners.


    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    ...I think the only possible reason for objecting to you leading in the revision class is because she knows or fears that some women there may be offended by the idea of dancing with another woman. I think this attitude is completely pathetic but I'm aware that some people think like this and the taxi manager might feel she has to take it into consideration. I know that when I have done some leading I have received a few negative vibes although most women are OK with it, if a bit puzzled.
    Have you considered it isn't about the other women. Experienced women leading in beginner review classes could reduce the number of male leaders that continue.

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    Seeing as this is now common place at many venues as well as weekenders I'm amazed that anyone turns a hair.
    But not common place for people starting dancing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    I also said, well surely as a paying customer I should be allowed to chose what I wanted to do, but no, apparently not!!! I am NOT according to them a beginner despite never learning to do anything but follow so cant go to the beginner practice as our Taxi dancers will be uncomfortable... surely taxi dancers shouldn't be doing any taxiiing if they are uncomfortable as we ask them to dance with us in the freestyle, so we know their standards and abilities anyway, and who am I to criticise, they know more than me & they are helping me learn!
    The Taxis are doing a job helping/teaching beginners in the review class.

    Explanations are necessarily simplified and may use stereotypes to get the point across.

    Male followers and female leaders can give them a lot more to explain.


    Also some of the things they tell the follower may not be strictly true, if relevant to the situation, and they may be afraid you won't go along with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I would be inclined to look for a new place to learn to dance at.
    Their attitude is perfectly valid and reasonable, but there are plenty of places that hold a different view.

    But if distance is an issue, perhaps consider buying a beginners move DVD.


    As an experienced follower you have other routes to learn other than the beginners review class. I doubt the male followers learned in the beginners review class.

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    Cool Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Their attitude is perfectly valid and reasonable, but there are plenty of places that hold a different view.
    No. I am afraid it is far from valid or reasonable. This person (regardless of gender) is paying cash to learn to dance with people. That's dance... not have sex with... dance. When I DANCE with people it does not matter to me one jot what gender they are, just as it wouldn't matter if I were to play badminton with them, or skittles or any other physical past-time. I lead guys quite happily, why shouldn't I? This whole thing just stinks of misplaced homophobia. So the taxi needs to talk to 'leads and follows' and not to 'guys and girls'. Whooptie doo da. They are there to help people learn to dance, if they find that they are uncomfortable with females leading then I suggest that the problem is with their own insecurities.

    I can find NOTHING anywhere to say that if you attend a Ceroc night then females MUST follow and MALES must lead. Dancing is (or at least should be) fun for all.

    I don't know where this person dances (nor do I suggest any hint of naming and shaming) but there's a whole raft of places teaching Modern Jive, Ceroc is but one of them.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    To be absolutely fair here, it's not the regular taxi dancers, but the franchisee & the taxi manager who have the problem. In fact the taxi dancers I approached quietly, (and gingerly) to ask them would it be ok if I joined in & they were more than positive in their response. It was last week when the manager was at the venue that she saw me in the practice session, and so the franchisee left a message on my answer phone asking me not to do it. What is laughable here was the fact that we have a male beginner who has been in that class for a year now, he is more than capable of moving to intermediate, but refuses to do so as he feels lacking in confidence, he's a really lovely man, and enjoys helping out the taxi's and fair play to him, each to their own. However on the message that was left I was accused of making the numbers unbalanced in the practice session, so there was one extra man, (please note not the word 'lead' used here by the franchisee) as though that is a problem. So my next question is why is it unacceptable for there to be more leads than follows?, and also why is it ok when there are too many follows for 'women' to take up the slack as leads, but not in this particular instance for a 'man' to have to stand out for a turn?!!

    Once again thanks to everyone for their comeback, it has helped me to see that the negative response that I am experiencing is, as I expected, unique in Ceroc, and that i am not being unreasonable in my request to learn the 19 beginner moves as a novice like anyone else.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    . I doubt the male followers learned in the beginners review class.

    no..nor in the main class.
    Just simply frowned upon and was told it would make other males uncomfortable especially beginners.

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    OK, I'm female, and a competent follow, but I now want to learn to lead to a good standard too. I am allowed to do the Beginners class with everyone else, but when I want to go into the beginners practice session I am stopped.
    I've phoned H.O. but they say they can do nothing... and I was wondering if anyone else has had this dilemma, and if so what they did about it????

    Thanks folks
    I think you might find 'theTor' dai had an issue in the early days when she began to dance, its cos of her and satrong people like her that have made 'female lead's' and male followers' more accepterble, she inssised the reason she had come to dance was to lead.
    Go Gal





    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    I can see where they're coming from if there're more leaders than followers at that venue, but otherwise if you're paying to go you should really be able to decide what role you want to do.


    .


    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I would be inclined to look for a new place to learn to dance at.
    Please be aware that what you have experienced is not the general Ceroc experience - most Ceroc places are very friendly and accommodating.
    I agree, change your venue

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Got to admit, it's taking the shine off my evenings now as I just want to learn, and they are blocking me!...If only I lived closer to you!!!!
    this is a shame, not sure where you live Mayhem, but I have the habbit of poping up all over I would love you to lead me

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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    ..........to learn the 19 beginner moves as a novice like anyone else.
    19 !

    Just out of interest, do they really teach 19 moves in the beginner classes - I usually help when there is a surplus of followers (and have never had a problem with venue managers etc with this) I am a reasonable lead - but not sure if I know 19 moves

    (all the female leads mention on this thread are a joy to dance with - and they must have started in the beginners classes)

    Go girl !


    BTW, IMO, women leads are very similar to women drivers, when you get a good one they are often better then men


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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    So my next question is why is it unacceptable for there to be more leads than follows?
    This is a very fair question and I'd be interested to hear the venue managers answer

    I, like most people on here, can't understand what the problem is.

    Surely, having people at a venue who can both lead and follow, is a bonus for everyone?
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    Re: Experienced Follow being discouraged to Lead

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Several posters have mentioned role reversal classes, but I'm not clear how they're relevant. I've yet to see a role reversal class taught to beginners.
    I've certainly seen role reversal classes taught as a general fun class before a free style. Personally, I hate them, as I find them too challenging! I think they are not suitable for absolute beginners who have not got much idea about the mechanics of lead and follow. However, once some understanding of that has been established then swapping roles does no harm at all. After all, it's about role, not gender.

    Have you considered it isn't about the other women. Experienced women leading in beginner review classes could reduce the number of male leaders that continue.
    I'm not sure how exactly - unless male leaders respond badly to potentially being outclassed by a competent woman. Surely that wouldn't happen? An experienced follower has to go pretty much back to basics anyway when learning to lead, as Mayhem pointed out.


    But not common place for people starting dancing.
    Commonplace enough for anyone who ever attends a freestyle anywhere in the country to have witnessed it, even though they may not have taken part. Role-swapping has become part of the MJ culture now.




    Explanations are necessarily simplified and may use stereotypes to get the point across.

    Male followers and female leaders can give them a lot more to explain.
    It could even help to get the point across that there are two clear-cut roles - leader and follower. Lots of beginner's problems in MJ are caused by insufficient understanding of the two roles , so anything that highlights them is surely a good thing.


    Their attitude is perfectly valid and reasonable, but there are plenty of places that hold a different view.
    I don't think it is reasonable but the bottom line is, you can't force the ordinary punter to dance with someone they don't want to. But if Mayhem can find partners within the refresher class that are happy to be led by her I can't see why she should not be allowed to participate.

    My feeling is that the problem is down to specific individuals who are blocking this for personal reasons which I hope can be negotiated around.


    But if distance is an issue, perhaps consider buying a beginners move DVD.
    This would be helpful to support learning but is in no way a replacement for practical experience.


    As an experienced follower you have other routes to learn other than the beginners review class. I doubt the male followers learned in the beginners review class.
    Review classes must be teaching something useful, otherwise why would anybody bother running them - so Mayhem should be entitled to join in.

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