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Thread: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

  1. #21
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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    It would be unethical not to do everything in your power to aid the survival of a premature baby
    ...because...?

    I'm pretty sure I don't agree with that.

    Except in the narrow sense of applying to obstetricians in their daily work.

  2. #22
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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Apparently, after they stop biting you , pigs are very intelligent and lovely flatmates.
    Are you making a point, here, somehow?

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by batnurse View Post
    the sensitive bacteria get killed off first...
    Just like humans, really...

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Which Brazilian?

    I only know the formula 1 drivers and the deceased electrician. Oh, and a footballer or two...
    Not for the first time your brain is in a different place from the average forumite.

  5. #25
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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by batnurse View Post
    I've got a paper somewhere that surveyed GP patients - a significant number admitted to lying to their GP to get antibiotics in the first place, and a huge proportion of people keep part of their course of tablets "for later" in case they think their GP won't give them any more
    This is probably responsible for more resistance in bacteria than GPs giving out antibiotics for viral infections. As Chef pointed out, the sensitive bacteria get killed off first and it's the resistant blighters that are left to multiply and cause ten times more trouble.
    I know about the "feeling better so stop taking the medication" or "save it for later" stuff too... My gran has a habit of doing this.... My Mum has a Microbiology Phd and I have a slightly more recent Immunlology and Micro degree, but between us, we still can't persuade her that antibiotics are sometimes ineffective against sniffles, but that when you do get prescribed them, finish the course

    WT

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Are you making a point, here, somehow?
    No, it's completely unrelated to the thread.

    hang on, it might not be. Right, so keeping a pig in a small concrete sty where it's hard to turn around (they even have to give birth in them) , I mean it's imoral, but also unhygenic - we then eat the pork.

    Apply to other animals too, hens, chickens, turkey's, cows etc.,



    What I was going to say is, if you go to any supermarket, you see whole aisle's devoted to cleaning products. There are bacterial wipes for every surface (as if it matters where you use them )

    So it's a money spinner.

    What's wrong with vinegar, lemon, and domestos and a spot of Ajax? No money in it.



    Getting to the point, at last, children from homes which were kept exceptionally clean suffered from asthma and allergies a lot more than children living in homes that were only averagely clean.

    The obsessively clean homes tended to belong to richer households. perhaps the mothers could afford a cleaner.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    ...because...?

    I'm pretty sure I don't agree with that.

    Except in the narrow sense of applying to obstetricians in their daily work.

    Perhap you could explore for us the circumstances under which you would have the knowledge, means and opportunity to save a persons life and would not use it.

    I have always thought that doctors had a duty to do whatever they can to preserve and/or enhance life, and that was part of their ethical code. Am I wrong?

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    What I was going to say is, if you go to any supermarket, you see whole aisle's devoted to cleaning products. There are bacterial wipes for every surface (as if it matters where you use them )

    So it's a money spinner.

    What's wrong with vinegar, lemon, and domestos and a spot of Ajax? No money in it.
    There is nothing wrong with them. They are all useful agents around the house. As far as I know vinigar and lemon are useful cleaning agents but I have seen mould growing on both of them so at least they have no antifungal activity, I have never heard it claimed that they have antibacterial activity.

    Ajax cleans by being a very fine adbrasive with a mild surfactant in it to loosen up greasy depostits. Fine on hard surfaces but bad news for plastics. It has a trialkylammonioun salt added to it as an antibaterial agent but them most home cleaning agents use them as antibacterials (even used in mouthwashes).

    Domestos is just a solution of sodium hypochlorite with a gelling agent to help it stick. It is a very good antibacterial because it is a reasonably powerful oxidising agent and well as being very basic (and therefore corrosive).

    For all of these things somebody has to make or grow them and someone makes money out of that. If you don't think other product are value for money, or convenient, then just keep you money in your pocket and don't buy them. Products are offered to the market, not imposed on people. I don't see any restriction on the supply of vinegar, lemons, domestos or ajax (cif as it now is) to force people to use more profitable products.

  9. #29
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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    I suspect that Astro’s point is that the proliferation of cleaning products on the market (many of which may contain fairly similar ingredients but be marketed as having different uses) encourages an obsession with cleanliness which, in the spirit of the discussion of this thread, might actually be harmful to us, rather than beneficial. The benefit is going to the companies who produce them and then market them in such a way as to make people think that they need them.

    There has been much in the press in recent years about over-clean homes leading to children with allergies and asthma. Presumably this could be linked again to our immune systems having nothing to keep them occupied, so being overactive. So maybe it’s not worms we need, but dirtier homes… oh blast, and I was going to get Beo to clean the bathroom tonight!

  10. #30
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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I suspect that Astro’s point is that the proliferation of cleaning products on the market (many of which may contain fairly similar ingredients but be marketed as having different uses) encourages an obsession with cleanliness which, in the spirit of the discussion of this thread, might actually be harmful to us, rather than beneficial. The benefit is going to the companies who produce them and then market them in such a way as to make people think that they need them.!
    There has been a proliferation of cleaning products on the market. Then again there has been a proliferation of computers, cars, clothes, coffee.....you name it. It is just people trying to make money by building their better mousetrap. I don't think it is not a cynical attempt by "them" to make money out of "us" buy offereing products that cost more and more and do not much more. Most adults have the ability to take their hard earned cash and make a critical judgement about wether any particular product delivered value for money. Making people think that they need them is called marketing. If you are clever enough you can make your decisions for yourself. We are not victims to marketing unless we allow ourselves to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    There has been much in the press in recent years about over-clean homes leading to children with allergies and asthma. Presumably this could be linked again to our immune systems having nothing to keep them occupied, so being overactive. So maybe it’s not worms we need, but dirtier homes… oh blast, and I was going to get Beo to clean the bathroom tonight!
    There were people who were obessionally clean even before the time of my mothers childhood. The phrase "cleanliness is next to godlliness" is a very old one indeed. All that is different today is that there is a greater variety of products that all do pretty much the same thing by which obsessional cleaners can fulfill their desires.

    Our bodies work by being exposed to infections and germs in small doses and developing a response that can kick in to defend us when an otherwise overwhelming infection is encountered. By making our enviroment super clean we are removing those challenges to our systems that prepare us for a full blown infection.

    The idea that keeping your home clean shows that you care about your children, family and self esteem, is fine but there comes a point where the cleaning thing gets silly and counter productive.

    By all means get Beo to clean the bathroom tonight. Just don't make him do it again tomorrow night, and the night after that..............

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    By all means get Beo to clean the bathroom tonight. Just don't make him do it again tomorrow night, and the night after that..............
    Chance would be a fine thing!

  12. #32
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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    Perhap you could explore for us the circumstances under which you would have the knowledge, means and opportunity to save a persons life and would not use it.

    I have always thought that doctors had a duty to do whatever they can to preserve and/or enhance life, and that was part of their ethical code. Am I wrong?
    I did say that the professional ethics of obstetricians were a separate issue.

    Massive, costly, resource-gobbling, sometimes dangerous interventions to prevent non-viable foetuses from expiring naturally is not quite the same thing as having "the knowledge, means and opportunity to save a person's life", now is it?

    Every thousand pounds spent by the National Health service on 30 week old premature births is a thousand pounds that isn't available, oh, for treating Parkinson's disease, Alzheimers, old-age cancers, etc etc. Therefore the question of whether that money is well-spent is a perfectly legitimate question.

    Especially since nature designed the system so that unhealthy foetuses could be aborted giving the parents a chance to try again and get healthy baby, whereas no-one gets new grandparents back if the originals die.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    The phrase "cleanliness is next to godlliness" is a very old one indeed.
    Er...not that old; without checking I would guess it doesn't precede 1800.

    In any event, the kind of cleanliness that was available 100 years ago was not the '99.9% of all known germs" variety that we have today.

    There are (not blinding, obviously) parallels with the tobacco industry that carried (carries) on flogging its product, claiming that it improved sore throats while the opposite was true. I bet no-one is quite so aware of the exact immuno-suppressant potential of biological super-cleaners than the manufacturers, but you can be sure they'll never tell us what they know.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Apply to other animals too, hens, chickens, turkey's, cows etc.,
    Now that IS interesting.

    How come the plural of turkey gets an apostrophe and the others didn't???

    As for your pigs - I thought you might be having a dig at an ex-flatmate of yours...

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    There has been a proliferation of cleaning products on the market. Then again there has been a proliferation of computers, cars, clothes, coffee.....you name it. It is just people trying to make money by building their better mousetrap. I don't think it is not a cynical attempt by "them" to make money out of "us" buy offereing products that cost more and more and do not much more. Most adults have the ability to take their hard earned cash and make a critical judgement about wether any particular product delivered value for money. Making people think that they need them is called marketing. If you are clever enough you can make your decisions for yourself. We are not victims to marketing unless we allow ourselves to be.
    So why market different cleaning products for different rooms? Oh, you can't use that bathroom cleaner in the kitchen, it's says bathroom on the label.
    Why have different cleaners for different white goods?

    Personally I buy ecover washing up liquid and use it to clean everything. It's gentle, green and effective.

    I one took some cream cleaner (Tesco's own brand) back to Tesco's as it had stripped the paint off my doors. I had left it on for half an hour due to a diversion. They wouldn't even acknowledge my complaint.

    I did notice though, that not long after the bottle was redesigned. (Didn't test it out though)

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post

    How come the plural of turkey gets an apostrophe and the others didn't???
    Strange that. Mysteries of the brain. I suddenly remembered something - all animals that are intensively farmed automatically have antibiotics added to their food.

    So even if one never takes anti biotics from the doctor, one will still get doses of them from eating meat - probably in eggs, milk and diary products too.
    As for your pigs - I thought you might be having a dig at an ex-flatmate of yours...
    No, when I said biting, I really meant that the pigs nibble - it's their way of sussing you out. Then they become friendly.

    The poor things have a horrible death, because after they are stunned with a stun gun, they are dropped into a boiling hot water, in front of the other queuing pigs.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    The poor things have a horrible death, because after they are stunned with a stun gun, they are dropped into a boiling hot water, in front of the other queuing pigs.
    I'm pretty sure that contravenes the law. I think they are ex-sanguinated to kill them; the boiling water comes afterward to scald off most of the hair.

    Makes better crackling.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    So why market different cleaning products for different rooms? Oh, you can't use that bathroom cleaner in the kitchen, it's says bathroom on the label.
    Why have different cleaners for different white goods?

    Personally I buy ecover washing up liquid and use it to clean everything. It's gentle, green and effective.
    Now, that is a coincidence.

    Was listening to programme about design on R4 last night and they talked to a guy who started a cleaning products company after he was made redundant the same week as his wife gave up work to have her baby.

    He was saying that you can't have all-purpose cleaning products; he specifically said something like 'bathroom drain cleaners have to deal with hair and soap; but kitchen cleaners have to deal with food and grease - different chemicals are required'. Obvious - once someone's point it out.

    Not to say that there aren't some cleaning products which get close to being 'all purpose', where people are prepared to add a liberal portion of elbow grease.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Was listening to programme about design on R4 last night and they talked to a guy who started a cleaning products company after he was made redundant the same week as his wife gave up work to have her baby.

    He was saying that you can't have all-purpose cleaning products; he specifically said something like 'bathroom drain cleaners have to deal with hair and soap; but kitchen cleaners have to deal with food and grease - different chemicals are required'. Obvious - once someone's point it out.
    Presumably "In Business"? (Podcast here, and more info here.)

    The bit Barry's talking about starts around 17 minutes in.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    Products are offered to the market, not imposed on people.
    have you tried to find a cleaning product/clothes soaker that isn't antibacterial!?!?!?

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Which Brazilian?

    I only know the formula 1 drivers and the deceased electrician. Oh, and a footballer or two...
    Is it maybe time for someone to find themselves a new girlfriend.

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