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Thread: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

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    Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    This is an astonishing finding.

    It seems that in freeing ourselves from parasites which, in evolutionary terms, we had been obliged to learn to live with, we may have caused ourselves a whole set of unforeseen problems.

    So, next time you break out your Kills 100% of all known germs - DEAD kitchen/bathroom/house cleaning fluid, remind yourself that maybe some of those known germs might have their uses, from a human point of view!!

    (And ask yourself what a germ that had been killed UNDEAD might be like...)

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    This is an astonishing finding.
    So, would it be a fair assumption that those people who don't suffer from any allergies are grubby, infested mingers?

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Our bodies produce different types of antibodies that have different purposes. IgE is specifically designed to deal with parasitic infections, but as we don't have them any more... it's now used as a marker for allergies
    I have a workmate who suffers from awful allergies resulting in long hospital stays, he is now waiting to hear if he can be given a new treatment that involves giving him intestinal worms. The theory being that it keeps the IgE busy.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    I am astonished that this is astonishing to be honest

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    I have often wondered about this. When I was at primary and secondary school I never heard of anyone with a nut allergy, asthma, ezcema (sp?) and only a rare case of hay fever during games in the height of summer. Now it seems that there are many more people around with these conditions.

    Perhaps in my childhood, where I was allowed out to play in farmyards and country streams all day long and only had to be home for dusk, and how much fun I had had was judged by how dirty I was when I got home, people who could die from these allergies just died before I came into contact with them. Even so I don't remember coming into contact with anyone that had an allergy apart from occasional hayfever.

    My partner, who was a ward nurse, remarked once that ever since the ability to get very premature babies to survive with suppport, they had found that following the long term health of these children showed that they had long term health problems because they were basically born before their immune systems or lungs were fully developed. I would like to see some authorative research on this. Just because we can do something doesn't always mean it is a good thing to do.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by batnurse View Post
    he is now waiting to hear if he can be given a new treatment that involves giving him intestinal worms. The theory being that it keeps the IgE busy.
    Lovely, next step send him to live in an animal pen and eat only raw pork off the floor?

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I am astonished that this is astonishing to be honest
    It sounds like common sense to me.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    I have often wondered about this. When I was at primary and secondary school I never heard of anyone with a nut allergy, asthma, ezcema (sp?) and only a rare case of hay fever during games in the height of summer. Now it seems that there are many more people around with these conditions.
    I also think there's an element of over-diagnosis. Years ago only severe asthmatics were described as such and got what little treatment there was. Now, the slightest sniffle or wheeze gets bombarded with inhalers. I really doubt whether they are alsways necessary but they will boost the statistics for asthma.

    Perhaps in my childhood, where I was allowed out to play in farmyards and country streams all day long and only had to be home for dusk, and how much fun I had had was judged by how dirty I was when I got home, people who could die from these allergies just died before I came into contact with them. Even so I don't remember coming into contact with anyone that had an allergy apart from occasional hayfever.
    Happy days! A peck of dirt etc etc... Certainly hasn't done me any harm, no allergies and very resistant to stomach upsets etc. Just a bit of itching from the body lice. (Thinks, must try not to scratch if I ever get to dance with Gav.)

    Not quite so happy for two people I remember from my school/ student days who died from asthma.

    Just because we can do something doesn't always mean it is a good thing to do.
    I agree. However, perhaps the stage we are at where some medical interventions seem to be of dubious benefit has to be gone through in order to build the fund of knowledge for the future.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    This is an astonishing finding.
    Not entirely relevant, but amusing to note that the rise in popularity of the Brazilian is being blamed for the virtual extinction of public lice in the Western world.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    to jivecat

    There is an affiliated problem where not only do the public go to the doctor about the slightest sniffle - the doctors succumb to the public pressure and tend to over prescribe antibiotic even when most sniffles are caused by viruses - which are not affected by the properties of even the most advanced antibiotics...

    (and breathe)

    Overprescription has slowly been the catalyst for bacteria becoming immune to the effects of the antibiotics and the emergencve of superbugs like MRSA (Methycillin Resistant Staph Aureus) and VISA (Vancomycin Insensitive Staph. Aureus) - The reason these hit the headlines is because Methycillin and Vancomycin are two of the last resort Antibiotics available to us.. Luckily a few more antibiotics are coming through testing... But better to play safe!!

    My Uni lecturers over 5 () years ago knew about this problem, and were trying to educate the pharmacists and doctors of the future about this prediciment..

    Whitetiger

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    the virtual extinction of public lice in the Western world.
    Yes, they should clearly stay private

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Lovely, next step send him to live in an animal pen and eat only raw pork off the floor?
    There's a new reality TV show where he could do just that - live in a concrete sty with a pig.

    Apparently, after they stop biting you , pigs are very intelligent and lovely flatmates.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    My partner, who was a ward nurse, remarked once that ever since the ability to get very premature babies to survive with suppport, they had found that following the long term health of these children showed that they had long term health problems because they were basically born before their immune systems or lungs were fully developed. I would like to see some authorative research on this. Just because we can do something doesn't always mean it is a good thing to do.
    I suspect that you’re right. Certainly Beo believes that his anosmia is due to being born prematurely – the necessary nerve endings, etc. didn’t have time to develop.

    I doubt that we will ever be able to stop treating these prematurely born babies – it would be considered inhuman (and I wouldn’t have Beo if the technology hasn’t been there when he was born!). But what probably does need to be developed is an environment where the babies can continue their maturation outside of the womb somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    I also think there's an element of over-diagnosis. Years ago only severe asthmatics were described as such and got what little treatment there was. Now, the slightest sniffle or wheeze gets bombarded with inhalers. I really doubt whether they are always necessary but they will boost the statistics for asthma.


    I have hayfever, and am allergic to dust mites, etc (at least you know I’m clean ). After having had several colds, I developed a bit of a wheeze (have always had a tendency), and went to see the doctor to get it investigated. She had me do a peak flow test, and diagnosed asthma. I was duly provided with a range of inhalers which either made no difference, or made me feel worse (this wasn’t the first time – I’ve had doctors insisting I take inhalers since I was about 12). I was still coughing and wheezing, and convinced that it was due to allergies.

    I kept going back, and eventually they decided to do a proper asthma test (spirometry). And whaddyaknow… I don’t have asthma! In fact the tests came back perfectly normal (I just have crap lungs – that’s what comes from living with a mother who smoked when I was a child). Now the allergies are being treated properly and I’m somewhat better.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    Overprescription has slowly been the catalyst for bacteria becoming immune to the effects of the antibiotics and the emergencve of superbugs like MRSA (Methycillin Resistant Staph Aureus) and VISA (Vancomycin Insensitive Staph. Aureus) - The reason these hit the headlines is because Methycillin and Vancomycin are two of the last resort Antibiotics available to us.. Luckily a few more antibiotics are coming through testing... But better to play safe!!
    A lot of people got into the expectation of being given antibiotics when going to their GP with a viral infection like a cold or flu. Antiobiotics are not effective against viruses but it was a belt and braces approach to deal with any bacterial infections that may thrive while the bodies immune systems was busy fighting off the virus. It got to the point where it was so automatic that a GP would give them a prescription of antibiotics just to get some patients out of their surgery.

    The consequence was that the antibiotics would kill off all the bacteria EXCEPT for the very small number that were resistant which then found that they existed in a human where there was no other bacteria to compete with. Seventy years ago it was very easy to get a bacterial infection that would easily and rapidly kill you. With the coming of antibiotics a lot of fatal infections became easily treatable and death or damage unheard of. I would be terrified if the world ever went back to the situation of 70 years ago because of antiobitic resistant bacterial or no more better antibiotics could be discovered.

    Patients could help things if they are prescribed antibiotics by taking the whole course. If you stop early because you aren't feeling that bad you leave your bacteria battered, but not dead, and they able to adapt themselves to become resistant to their next meeting with that antibiotic.

    I have worked on vancomycin based comounds as well as beta-lactam antibiotics. The future does scare me.

    Remember that the next time you see an advert that says that the product kills 99.9% of all known germs dead that the question you should ask next is how or when the germ that is the 0.1% that is able to survive bleach is going to bite us all in the butt.
    Last edited by Chef; 22nd-April-2009 at 02:14 PM.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I doubt that we will ever be able to stop treating these prematurely born babies – it would be considered inhuman (and I wouldn’t have Beo if the technology hasn’t been there when he was born!). But what probably does need to be developed is an environment where the babies can continue their maturation outside of the womb somehow.
    It would be unethical not to do everything in your power to aid the survival of a premature baby and no one can see into the future of a baby and know if what we are doing is going to result in a good life, a tolerable life, or a life not worth living, ahead.

    I am currently working on a drug that stops premature labour. I can't help feelilng that until the baby is fully formed then it is far better off in a womb than would be in an incubator unless it is in real dange inside its mother. So far it works but there is a long road of testing and trials and nothing may come of it. I feel that the small part that I play in the drugs industry is worthwhile when I can see the people that have been helped. Being portrayed as a money grabbing industry that is out to poison the good people of the world when all they really need is a probiotic diet is tiring. Being told by a doctor that a drug I worked on had reduced the annual death rate in Africa from maleria by 380,000 in the first year after its introduction made those long years at university seem worthwhile though.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    I've got a paper somewhere that surveyed GP patients - a significant number admitted to lying to their GP to get antibiotics in the first place, and a huge proportion of people keep part of their course of tablets "for later" in case they think their GP won't give them any more
    This is probably responsible for more resistance in bacteria than GPs giving out antibiotics for viral infections. As Chef pointed out, the sensitive bacteria get killed off first and it's the resistant blighters that are left to multiply and cause ten times more trouble.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by batnurse View Post
    ... As Chef pointed out, the sensitive bacteria get killed off first and it's the resistant blighters that are left to multiply and cause ten times more trouble.
    If you build a better mousetrap, you get better mice.

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    If you build a better mousetrap, you get better mice.
    Does word travel fast on the mouse grapevine that theres a challenge here? Will the Achilles of mice turn up ?

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Does word travel fast on the mouse grapevine that theres a challenge here? Will the Achilles of mice turn up ?
    I'll see your Achilles mouse and raise you an Einstein mouse

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    Re: Godliness, maybe, but not health..?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Not entirely relevant, but amusing to note that the rise in popularity of the Brazilian is being blamed for the virtual extinction of public lice in the Western world.
    Which Brazilian?

    I only know the formula 1 drivers and the deceased electrician. Oh, and a footballer or two...

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