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Thread: A place for paedophiles

  1. #21
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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Couldn't they do both? i.e a full time mindless job 9 to 5 then evening classes on how not to be an evil pervert?

    I suppose so. Their social diary is not likely to be that cramped

    I just don't think that being in a large group of people with the same interests would help them to understand they may have these desires but must not act upon them. I feel it may do more harm than good to put them in a place where they can feed off each others fantasies and desires. It should not be a holiday camp but I am worried about them being all together. I always thought of prison having two aims - punishment and rehabilitation. I feel there needs to be both. Where the balance is to be struck between these two is not something I feel able to speak about.
    Last edited by Chef; 21st-April-2009 at 02:32 PM.

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Couldn't they do both? i.e a full time mindless job 9 to 5 then evening classes on how not to be an evil pervert?
    That's an easy one. Give 'em a desk next to Trouble, who'll be doing some serious time for GBH, attempted murder and possession of firearms, and she can lecture them all day on exactly why she shot them in the crotch (and thus ended up in prison)

    I'm sure that between them, they can work something out...
    And it'll save the cost of the evening classes. You know. In today's harsh economic climate and all that

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    That's an easy one. Give 'em a desk next to Trouble, who'll be doing some serious time for GBH, attempted murder and possession of firearms, and she can lecture them all day on exactly why she shot them in the crotch (and thus ended up in prison)

    I'm sure that between them, they can work something out...
    And it'll save the cost of the evening classes. You know. In today's harsh economic climate and all that
    SC i would never do it myself, i would delegate the work.

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    Unhappy Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Haylz View Post
    I would go for partial lobotomy...remove the area of the brain responsible for sexual urges and physically castrate them also just to be on the safe side.
    ..and keep your fingers crossed that every single solitary conviction is 100% safe. Because once you have horrifically mutilated someone it's pretty permanent y'know. Also, is it even possible to castrate a female offender?
    Quote Originally Posted by Haylz View Post
    Alternatively, we just keep contributing a portion of our taxes towards prisons especially for them. I'd pay to have these people under lock and key 24 hours a day so that we know where they are. I disagree that these places should be pleasant in any way. They should be a deterrent not a holiday camp.
    Ahhhh, the old deterrent verses punishment debate. Using punishment as a deterrent will only work if the offender has a real sense that they will be caught. Most offenders do not consider the fact that they will be caught until the Boys in Blue tap them on the shoulder. Punishment as a deterrent works pretty well on children "if I see you doing that again I'll ground you". But once people hit adolescence they tend to think they're smarter than the rest of the world, and therein lies the problem. Look at the murder rate in America for example - a country with capital punishment. Let's face it, if a wooden chair with 40,000 volt upholstery doesn't deter people what would? It also leads to another VERY serious problem. If you're going to punish paedophiles with mutilation or death why would they not just get rid of the 'evidence'? In for a penny....

    Most child abuse in the UK happens within the family (or extended family). It's not some mysterious stranger in a mac lurking by the bushes at the park looking for a puppy. Children who are abused by a family member can often get extremely confused. Reporting the matter may mean that they lose a parent whom they love. Many kids do not want to lose their parent, they just want that part of their home life to cease. The impact and fall out of having a parent locked up because of your testimony can be an enormous burden. But imagine a child seeing their zombiefied, mutilated parent and having to live with that being a direct result of them turning to someone for help.

    Custodial punishment in our civilised culture is designed to remove a person's liberty. Custodial punishment doesn't mean that people are forced to live in un-human or grossly unpleasant conditions. That also means not turning a blind eye to nonces being abused by other inmates. I know this probably isn't a very popular view among the majority of the Daily Mail readers that frequent these parts; but it is in part of what separates the savages from the civilised.

    Of course if you prefer a more direct and barbaric approach to law and order you could always up stumps and buy a nice place in sunny Iran.

    I do apologise if this seems like a personal attack on you Haylz, I assure you it's not. I'm just not sure how to disagree with your comments without it sounding like I'm blaming you personally for the myopic Daily Mail mentality that often prevails when this emotive topic gets raised around here

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Anyone who thinks that prison-as-deterrent is an important element of sentencing and law-and-order policies isn't paying attention.

    Those of us with (relatively) pleasant lives and an investment in the future and in a stable social environment find prison a very horrible prospect. But we aren't living they way we do because prison deters us, but because everything about our lives pushes us in another direction.

    People with grim lives and little or no investment in the future and a stable social environment are not deterred by prison. They mostly assume they won't get caught and if they do think about it, they see the possibility of prison as the acceptable risk of a lifestyle which they choose.

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    SC i would never do it myself, i would delegate the work.
    I hate to break this to you, but even without the fairly appalling moral implications, this still would not be even remotely legal.

    Those shared work sessions could still be an option...

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Anyone who thinks that prison-as-deterrent is an important element of sentencing and law-and-order policies isn't paying attention.

    Those of us with (relatively) pleasant lives and an investment in the future and in a stable social environment find prison a very horrible prospect. But we aren't living they way we do because prison deters us, but because everything about our lives pushes us in another direction.

    People with grim lives and little or no investment in the future and a stable social environment are not deterred by prison. They mostly assume they won't get caught and if they do think about it, they see the possibility of prison as the acceptable risk of a lifestyle which they choose.


    Not to mention that for some of those who do think about the consequences, prison can be the easy option compared to their current situation.

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    I think there is too much time spent on discussing paedophiles and not enough discussing the effects on the victims, more publicity on the pain it causes could act as a deterrent to some and also most paedophiles seem to have been abused themselves so more info on that would help? Having said that if I heard off anyone abusing a child I wouldnt mind doing what Arnie did in Kindergarten Cop and bif them.

    G

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Anyone who thinks that prison-as-deterrent is an important element of sentencing and law-and-order policies isn't paying attention.

    Those of us with (relatively) pleasant lives and an investment in the future and in a stable social environment find prison a very horrible prospect. But we aren't living they way we do because prison deters us, but because everything about our lives pushes us in another direction.

    People with grim lives and little or no investment in the future and a stable social environment are not deterred by prison. They mostly assume they won't get caught and if they do think about it, they see the possibility of prison as the acceptable risk of a lifestyle which they choose.
    I didn't say it was a pivotal point of society or our legal/judicial system. however, i do think that the reason some people re-offend or offend in the first place is because they know that prison is not such a bad place. Having been in the unfortunate position of knowing someone who chose a criminal lifestyle, completely incongruent with the upbringing he had received, I know that this was the case with him. Prison just wasn't scary enough. He thought it was great that he would be in a place where he could be absolved from responsibility in that he did not have to fend for himself. He got to go to the gym, take college classes, learn trades, use the games room for snooker, video games etc. they have a 'cinema room' and in a so called 'open prison' they can do what they want. It's a bit of a joke. If prison was as it used to be, i.e. a terrible place of deprivation and hard labour, then I am willing to bet that people would make better choices about following criminal paths. Yes, there will always be people that choose this way of life, such is the nature of the human condition, but look back through the years when prisons were not as 'pleasant' as they are now and note that crime was a lot lower. I'm not saying it's a cure all solution, I'm just saying that it is a contributory factor and can help to lower the amount of offenders and reoffenders.

    Too much time is spent worrying about the condition of the criminal and not enough regarding the victim, in my opinion. How do you rationale a violent criminal convicted of armed robbery who has been known to police for the majority of his life for violent crimes/behaviours, threatening one of his previous victims from prison and then that victim is told that nothing can be done because he has too many rights? The victim was made to feel like a criminal, and was treated as such by police to the extent that a complaint was launched. Not to mention having to endure being intimidated by the offender. the fact is, the rehabilitation of offenders act gives too many rights to the criminal and not enough to the victim.

    Crime and punishment is an eternal quiz, that I don't think will ever be resolved as there are too many 'ideas' floating around on how best to do it. but surely, the primary element is to make the punishment so bad that it generates a fear of getting caught, not the 'so what' attitude we have today.

  10. #30
    Registered User Haylz's Avatar
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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    ..and keep your fingers crossed that every single solitary conviction is 100% safe. Because once you have horrifically mutilated someone it's pretty permanent y'know. Also, is it even possible to castrate a female offender?Ahhhh, the old deterrent verses punishment debate. Using punishment as a deterrent will only work if the offender has a real sense that they will be caught. Most offenders do not consider the fact that they will be caught until the Boys in Blue tap them on the shoulder. Punishment as a deterrent works pretty well on children "if I see you doing that again I'll ground you". But once people hit adolescence they tend to think they're smarter than the rest of the world, and therein lies the problem. Look at the murder rate in America for example - a country with capital punishment. Let's face it, if a wooden chair with 40,000 volt upholstery doesn't deter people what would? It also leads to another VERY serious problem. If you're going to punish paedophiles with mutilation or death why would they not just get rid of the 'evidence'? In for a penny....

    Most child abuse in the UK happens within the family (or extended family). It's not some mysterious stranger in a mac lurking by the bushes at the park looking for a puppy. Children who are abused by a family member can often get extremely confused. Reporting the matter may mean that they lose a parent whom they love. Many kids do not want to lose their parent, they just want that part of their home life to cease. The impact and fall out of having a parent locked up because of your testimony can be an enormous burden. But imagine a child seeing their zombiefied, mutilated parent and having to live with that being a direct result of them turning to someone for help.

    Custodial punishment in our civilised culture is designed to remove a person's liberty. Custodial punishment doesn't mean that people are forced to live in un-human or grossly unpleasant conditions. That also means not turning a blind eye to nonces being abused by other inmates. I know this probably isn't a very popular view among the majority of the Daily Mail readers that frequent these parts; but it is in part of what separates the savages from the civilised.

    Of course if you prefer a more direct and barbaric approach to law and order you could always up stumps and buy a nice place in sunny Iran.

    I do apologise if this seems like a personal attack on you Haylz, I assure you it's not. I'm just not sure how to disagree with your comments without it sounding like I'm blaming you personally for the myopic Daily Mail mentality that often prevails when this emotive topic gets raised around here
    I didn't take this as a personal attack...and i don't read the Daily Mail!!! I do have strong views and whilst I am not suggesting anything as barbaric or primitive as is practised among our eastern cousins, I do think that we ought to be tougher. Prison wasn't always just about removing someone's liberty. It was about punishment and penance for crime. They are no longer about that. It is disguised under the word 'rehabilitation' but to my mind it is just pandering to the criminals therein. I'm not suggesting the conditions should be sub-human, but there should be an element of deprivation. Otherwise, what's the point? all you've done is changed their residential address for a while.

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Haylz View Post
    If prison was as it used to be, i.e. a terrible place of deprivation and hard labour (DS edit: ...and death), then I am willing to bet that people would make better choices about following criminal paths. Yes, there will always be people that choose this way of life, such is the nature of the human condition, but look back through the years when prisons were not as 'pleasant' as they are now and note that crime was a lot lower. I'm not saying it's a cure all solution, I'm just saying that it is a contributory factor and can help to lower the amount of offenders and reoffenders.
    Can it? Or do you just wish it could ? You are willing to bet again ? Is it wise to through your money around like this ? As prisons are the "prize" when you "lose" the game of crime, I'd say they are far less likely to be an influence on whether the crime takes place or not. Heres a good article on some of the reasons for the changing crime figures


    the fact is, the rehabilitation of offenders act gives too many rights to the criminal and not enough to the victim.
    Well no, it doesn't. A victims rights are not stripped away because they are a victim, they have the same rights they always had. Yes criminals have too many rights in many ways, but its no black and white area - these rights you speak of are for ALL convicted criminals...Including the little old lady who out of protest, didn't pay her council tax. All things considered, changes are for the benefit of all society - but its understandable that when some particularly nasty criminals seem to benefit, it really riles us. What do we do? Go back to Victorian prison values just because the media points out the flaws in the system ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haylz View Post
    but surely, the primary element is to make the punishment so bad that it generates a fear of getting caught, not the 'so what' attitude we have today.
    Where is this "so what" attitude exactly, can you expand on this? And its clear that simple "fear of getting caught" is utterly useless.

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Can it? Or do you just wish it could ? You are willing to bet again ? Is it wise to through your money around like this ? As prisons are the "prize" when you "lose" the game of crime, I'd say they are far less likely to be an influence on whether the crime takes place or not. Heres a good article on some of the reasons for the changing crime figures




    Well no, it doesn't. A victims rights are not stripped away because they are a victim, they have the same rights they always had. Yes criminals have too many rights in many ways, but its no black and white area - these rights you speak of are for ALL convicted criminals...Including the little old lady who out of protest, didn't pay her council tax. All things considered, changes are for the benefit of all society - but its understandable that when some particularly nasty criminals seem to benefit, it really riles us. What do we do? Go back to Victorian prison values just because the media points out the flaws in the system ?



    Where is this "so what" attitude exactly, can you expand on this? And its clear that simple "fear of getting caught" is utterly useless.

    The so what attitude is prevalent within society today. You only need to look around to see it. There is disrespect everywhere and no respect for authority, particularly among many of our youth. Before I am pilloried for that comment, I know it's not all of them. I know many members of our youth who are extremely decent citizens.

    I'm not sorry that you disagree with my comments, but I am sorry that your disagreement came across in a very confrontational way. I apologise if mine did also. When emotions run high it's often the way

    Regarding rights, I was speaking from personal experience. I'm happy to expand in a private setting but I was made to feel that I was the one in the wrong. All the 'rights' were on the side of the criminal intimidating me and I was told I had to deal with it. That is very hard to swallow. Fear of getting caught is useless today because prisons are too lenient. The consequences of committing crime are not severe enough. That is my opinion and I cannot believe that the two points are not linked. If something isn't scary you can't be afraid of it can you. I have talked to prison security who have told me that it is a joke in some of our prisons. Incidentally, these people were working in a prison that simultaneously won an award for excellence, yet the reality appeared to be a little different.

    In the 1950s crime was a lot lower than it is now, and our prisons were much less privileged than they are now. doesn't that speak for itself? Like I said before, it isn't a cure all solution but it is part of the solution. i didn't suggest a return to Victorian prison values, nor do I feel that it is 'just because the media points out flaws in the system'. The prison system fails in many ways. I'm not the person with all the answers, just a few ideas on how I feel it might be improved. I'm also not ignorant of the problems experienced by those charged with running these institutions.

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    In my local paper, there was an article about a known (to the police) peodophile. He is disabled and lives in an upstairs flat. he can only go out if 3 carers take him out. Poetic justice!

    Anyway, he had his name down for a ground floor flat. The council offered him one next to a children's playground!

    Luckily, it was stopped, and he had to stay where he was. It was down on his file that he has done grooming in the past.

    That's why i'm in favour of a Sara's List. has that happened yet?

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Haylz View Post
    The so what attitude is prevalent within society today. You only need to look around to see it.
    I don't know where you live, but i don't see that here.

    but I am sorry that your disagreement came across in a very confrontational way.
    If I take a contrary position, chances are it will appear confrontational.


    Regarding rights, I was speaking from personal experience. I'm happy to expand in a private setting but I was made to feel that I was the one in the wrong. All the 'rights' were on the side of the criminal intimidating me and I was told I had to deal with it. That is very hard to swallow. Fear of getting caught is useless today because prisons are too lenient. The consequences of committing crime are not severe enough.
    That depends what you do and whether it can be proven. Try commiting major financial fraud - you get "severe" with that. I think we can all agree that for lots of crimes, sentencing is clearly wrong, but thats often down to the judges - the actual minimum and maximum sentences that can be handed out for some crimes are often fine. What was this criminal you speak of guilty of?


    That is my opinion and I cannot believe that the two points are not linked.
    Well they're not - unless you have some evidence that they are.

    If something isn't scary you can't be afraid of it can you.
    If you have no real knowledge or interest in something, it hardly matters if it is scary.

    In the 1950s crime was a lot lower than it is now, and our prisons were much less privileged than they are now. doesn't that speak for itself?
    No, its anecdotal at best.

    Like I said before, it isn't a cure all solution but it is part of the solution. i didn't suggest a return to Victorian prison values, nor do I feel that it is 'just because the media points out flaws in the system'.
    I was merely pointing out that the media lets us know about the flaws, we rarely hear of the "reformed characters" and success stories outside Readers Digest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    That's why i'm in favour of a Sara's List. has that happened yet?
    The idea of a list showing the location of convicted paedophiles is roundly condemned.
    As that article says "Twelve thousand people are on the official sex offenders register" and its these people that are labeled paedophiles. But the register includes
    adults only cautioned for a sexual offence and even underage teenagers engaged in consensual sex or simply cautioned for indecent exposure.
    Info hereand here. I can only imagine the hell it would be for a man, after a naked stag-night type prank, to be put on the sex offenders register because some children saw him nude; goodbye career, goodbye future job prospects, hello baying mob at the door holding the national newspaper with his photo in it.

    A public rabble rousing list is a terrible idea - law enforcement and social services should be trusted to do their job and held accountable if they cannot. If the police feel they need to release a list because someone is missing or whatever, then I am sure they will consider that that is in the best interests of the public at that time.

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    Cool Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Haylz View Post
    I would go for partial lobotomy...remove the area of the brain responsible for sexual urges and physically castrate them also just to be on the safe side.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haylz View Post
    I do have strong views and whilst I am not suggesting anything as barbaric or primitive as is practised among our eastern cousins, I do think that we ought to be tougher.
    You're right.... brain surgery is far from primitive

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    It was down on his file that he has done grooming in the past.
    Waits for Trouble to start an 'Chimpanzees - Hanging's too good for them' thread ...

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I can only imagine the hell it would be for a man, after a naked stag-night type prank, to be put on the sex offenders register because some children saw him nude; goodbye career, goodbye future job prospects, hello baying mob at the door holding the national newspaper with his photo in it.
    And it's easy to imagine a random juxtaposition of events making innocent activities look like something else...


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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post


    The idea of a list showing the location of convicted paedophiles is roundly condemned.
    Sara Paynes's mother tried to start Sara's List in 2000, after the murder of her daughter by a peodophile. This particular peodophile was on the Sex Offender's List!

    There is an Emma's List in the USA.
    As that article says "Twelve thousand people are on the official sex offenders register" and its these people that are labeled paedophiles. But the register includes
    adults only cautioned for a sexual offence and even underage teenagers engaged in consensual sex or simply cautioned for indecent exposure.
    Info hereand here. I can only imagine the hell it would be for a man, after a naked stag-night type prank, to be put on the sex offenders register because some children saw him nude; goodbye career, goodbye future job prospects, hello baying mob at the door holding the national newspaper with his photo in it.
    They need to have different catogaries. Paedos target age is children of 7.
    A public rabble rousing list is a terrible idea
    In the past where communities were more cohesive, neighbours knew who was dodgy with kids.

    Now, who tipped off their local newspaper? Luckily some people still take an interest in their neighbourhood.
    - law enforcement and social services should be trusted to do their job and held accountable if they cannot. If the police feel they need to release a list because someone is missing or whatever, then I am sure they will consider that that is in the best interests of the public at that time.
    The information should have been on the man's council housing file surely?
    If not, then things are not working.
    Or perhaps there was a slip up, and the info was not paseed on from the Sex Offender's Regiger to the Council?

    More money needs to be injected into the police paedophile unit. They are overworked because it takes hundreds of hours to catch a paedophile ring and charge them The paedos are extremely wily.

    Surely, the community can help and protect it's children from abuse and possible death?

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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    I've finally realised why this thread seems so familiar. It's because I've already .

  20. #40
    Registered User Haylz's Avatar
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    Re: A place for paedophiles

    It's not anecdotal at best it's a fact. If you live in an area where there is no crime or disrespect then I want to know where it is becasue I want to live there. I'd love to live in a place where everyone was respectful of everyone else...it would certainly put Jeremy Kyle out of a regular tv slot.

    To answer your question of what the criminal was guilty of; Armed Robbery. He had also made threats to kill me and my family and then harrassed me from a so called 'open prison' making threatening phone calls when he was out on a programme entitled 'Maintaining Family Ties'. The prison had no idea where he was, the police said there was nothing they could do to prevent him from catching a train to my house and carrying out threats because he has the right to be out spending time with his family. What about my right not to be victimised or harrassed by a criminal in the first place? They would not pick him up in spite of his history of domestic violence and he was out for near on a week. I was made to feel like a criminal by the way I was treated by police.

    You seem to have misunderstood my comments as you repeatedly talk about sentencing. I did not comment on whether I thought sentencing was appropriate or not, merely on the conditions of our prisons. I can only assume from your comments that you have no experience or grounded knowledge other than that which you read in newspapers or on spurious websites. There is a women's prison near where I live which has a nail and beauty salon that the inmates can utilise, they get their hair done, their nails manicured, they have a gym, they have access to more 'facilities' and relative luxuries than I do and I obey the law and pay my taxes to provide it to them. Now you tell me that is an unattractive place to be. why should they be bothered about being caught? all it does is slow down their criminal career progression which they will no doubt pick up again when they are released without worrying as prison wasn't so bad. How do you address the number of women who regularly commit offences so as to 'have a break' from looking after their children? They are imprisoned and the state looks after their kids and they see it as some form of macabre health camp!!!!! that is reality, not statistics or journalistic propaganda but what is actually happening within society, perhaps not where you live, but where would we be if we merely focused on our own back yard?

    Oh, and for information, you can disagree with something and have a contrary opinion without being confrontational about it; it's called respecting others' views and being diplomatic.

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