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Thread: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    If someone simply got in your way would you attack them from behind or just walk round them?
    Seems clear to me that this was a victim of the 'kettling' policy. They did not want to walk around the guy because they wanted him contained within the cordon of which that loose group of policemen was clearly a part.

    Since the policy is called 'kettling', one wonders why nobody in the Met management has given some thought to what happens when pressure builds up inside a vessel...kettles explode if they aren't allowed to vent.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    You're right of course. I was posting predicated on the stipulation that a link was shown, but it's not obvious from what I wrote.
    I realise, David, that you were thinking along those lines; it was for other readers that I put in the caveat.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Um - you missed the bit about the policeman whacking him with his baton behind the knees first, and shoving him immediately afterward.
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Did you look at the footage from the different angle? You can clearly see the baton from that angle.
    I have seen the new footage from a different angle now, but I hadn't when I made my first post.

    The original footage, I think, looks a lot more innocent than the new one with the baton across the back of the legs.

    Which just goes to show you that footage can be misleading. I suspect hundreds of innocent protesters, who were in the thick of it, but not being aggressive were being pushed about by the police that day. The only reason this one is getting so much publicity is because he died after the attack.

    I'm not saying it's right for the police to get heavy handed with innocent people, but unless it's proven that Ian died as a direct result of being attacked then manslaughter is nonsense.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Doolan View Post
    G20 protest death: new video shows Ian Tomlinson was hit with baton.

    I'm sure if I'd been felled by a baton whack on the back of the legs, I'd be slow in walking once I'd recovered enough to get back up, I might even look drunk, as DT suggests.

    Witness statements from some of the "Pot Noodle eaters"
    Thanks, Brian. That one was up earlier. I was hoping for video evidence of the earlier attack, witnessed at 7.15. It was witnessed, but what is clear from this is that video evidence carries more weight with officials than witness statements.

    It's also clear from this that any scruffy bugger can be mistaken for a protester. I'll be staying well clear of any areas, then!!!!

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by NickC View Post



    I've done 20 years in the TA and I find your comment somewhat offensive, I'll leave it at that
    I said some, not all, obviously.

    I remember when they would go out beating up punks in London. Maybe they are better now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    I think we should wait and see what comes out after interviews etc of people around this incident. I think its easy to assume he was an innocent on the footage we can see but as we all know, these things tend to have a before that we have not seen.

    I do think however that the police can be (not all)and continue to be proven undertrained, egotistical, bigots.

    I know some people in the police force and trust me, they should not be in it.
    If he is TA, wouldn't he be trained more in an army role, than dealing with civilians? Nick C, do you know?[
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTrouble
    Which just goes to show you that footage can be misleading. I suspect hundreds of innocent protesters, who were in the thick of it, but not being aggressive were being pushed about by the police that day. The only reason this one is getting so much publicity is because he died after the attack.
    That's what i was thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Thanks, Brian. That one was up earlier. I was hoping for video evidence of the earlier attack, witnessed at 7.15. It was witnessed, but what is clear from this is that video evidence carries more weight with officials than witness statements.

    It's also clear from this that any scruffy bugger can be mistaken for a protester. I'll be staying well clear of any areas, then!!!!
    Long haired layabouts? Surely not.
    Last edited by Astro; 9th-April-2009 at 05:30 PM.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Thanks, Brian. That one was up earlier. I was hoping for video evidence of the earlier attack, witnessed at 7.15. It was witnessed, but what is clear from this is that video evidence carries more weight with officials than witness statements...
    Witnesses are notoriously unreliable. The "fog" is already forming over this investigation. It now appears that there may have been a previous alleged incident. Even if it is thought that trauma precipitated the heart attack it may be unclear which trauma.

    It's also clear from this that any scruffy bugger can be mistaken for a protester. I'll be staying well clear of any areas, then!!!!
    They know where you live ...

    They know where I live ...

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post

    They know where you live ...

    They know where I live ...
    CCTV is everywhere, BUT NOW the general public have their own technology now to record proceedings.

    Mobile phones, video cameras....

    Will this act as a deterant to police brutality?

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    CCTV is everywhere, BUT NOW the general public have their own technology now to record proceedings.

    Mobile phones, video cameras....

    Will this act as a deterant to police brutality?
    I think this wonderful government of ours has recently made photographing or videoing the police illegal under its all encompassing anti-terrorism legislation; true, the public has the technology but can't use it, so no deterrent unfortunately.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Doolan View Post
    I think this wonderful government of ours has recently made photographing or videoing the police illegal under its all encompassing anti-terrorism legislation, so no deterrent unfortunately.
    This wonderfull Labour Government, ie Labour has always been the party of the working man. The working mans Government. Have I missed something here?

    DTS XXX XXX

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    CCTV is everywhere, BUT NOW the general public have their own technology now to record proceedings. Mobile phones, video cameras....
    Will this act as a deterant to police brutality?
    I think you've made a good point there Astro.

    The police must know that Big Brother was watching and that most of the protesters would have been filming them specifically to find something to sell to the papers to get their point across about police brutality, etc. Which makes me think that the policeman who attacked Ian didn't think he was doing anything wrong. In which case, you wonder what their instructions were from his superiors.

    It's all to easy to blame everything on this one guy who whacked a "dead man walking" who may have been on the verge of dropping down dead anyway. If you prosecute him, you gotta prosecute most of the police that were there that day, who were doing the same thing to lots of other people who luckily didn't die a few minutes later.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    irrelevant in this case - from your comments, it doesnt sound like you watched the video. summary: man walks along street, gets whacked to ground by policeman from behind, has heart attack and dies. There was no stressful situation as far as the policeman was concerned, no missles were being thrown and the police were not in the middle of anything. Also, you make it sound like "stress felt" is a reason for attacking someone from behind - it isnt, and inexperience/youth is a terrible excuse, its up to police command to deploy suitable people.
    Of course stress is not an excuse for assault, I never said it was - I did say that it was an excuse for error. The whole demonstration event had been built up beforehand by the media and the demo organisers and the police such that human errors were likely, and it is probable that this was one of many such errors which went horribly wrong.

    What I did say in the same post, which you may have missed, was:
    Quote Originally Posted by John S View Post
    I am NOT excusing the individual policeman's actions, and he should face due process of law to establish if he has acted illegally by using more force than was reasonable - on the face of it he did, but there may have been other circumstances of which we are not yet aware. Credit to the public and the media for bringing to public notice the incident (which would otherwise never have been heard of), but any trial should NOT be by the media or by the public.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    It's all to easy to blame everything on this one guy who whacked a "dead man walking" who may have been on the verge of dropping down dead anyway. If you prosecute him, you gotta prosecute most of the police that were there that day, who were doing the same thing to lots of other people who luckily didn't die a few minutes later.
    Well, let's just not bother then... let's make it OK with our acquiescence and our silent condonment....

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by John S View Post
    The whole demonstration event had been built up beforehand by the media and the demo organisers and the police.
    There were actually 4 different demos in different areas of London all happening at the same time.

    1. The one where Ian died were the finance protesters.

    2. Stop The War protesters

    3. Palastine protesters

    4. Climate protesters. (The one I wanted to join).

    Plus the G20 summit at the EXCEL centre.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    A question for you though - why, exactly, in comparison to the events shown in that film, does this matter in the slightest?
    Mr Par??

    The gentleman asks a fair Q.

    So, the main protagonist has been suspended.. what next?? Should his superiors be, also? What about his peers that stood by and did nothing to protect the innocent in this country...

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    There were actually 4 different demos in different areas of London all happening at the same time.

    4. Climate protesters. (The one I wanted to join).
    I encounter the climate protesters on most days:

    "Terrible rain today......."
    "It's so windy......"
    "Too hot for me mate...."

    A harmless game* for the most part.

    You can join in if you want at any time............and usually you won't get killed by a police office - however with the new government 'happiness tsar' and thought police, don't bank on it.

    *Technically a 'pastime' as Eric Berne would put it - a variant of 'Ain't it awful'. See http://www.roseman121.btinternet.co.uk/utopia/apt24.htm

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    I encounter the climate protesters on most days:

    "Terrible rain today......."
    "It's so windy......"
    "Too hot for me mate...."

    A harmless game* for the most part.
    All down to the vagaries of the British weather. Is this why we are such social creatures - there's always the weather to fall back on when we are stumped for something to say?

    But there may not be for very much longer.

    Some are warning that it's no longer if, but when we will be unable to survive on this planet.

    The planet doesn't care what we do, it's us who will suffer.

    The Age of Stupid, is this apt?

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    And now some more footage has turned up showing a policeman back-handing a very small woman, when she complains he gets out his baton and whacks her behind the knees.

    And we have 114 people arrested for planning a protest outside a coal-fired generating plant, and the school that owns the building where they were planning their jaunt is having to replace a whole load of doors etc which were destroyed by the police when they went in to make the arrests. All 114 have now been bailed - they must have been a dangerous bunch, right?

    I'm wondering when it was that I went to sleep and woke up in a fascist state. (Who said 1997? Own up at the back there!)

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    And now some more footage has turned up showing a policeman back-handing a very small woman, when she complains he gets out his baton and whacks her behind the knees.
    And again, it's apparent that without the footage, nothing would have been done, despite lots of police who saw what happened (and from the footage, some were not particularly happy about it).

    Not for nothing is the original phrase "One Bad Apple Spoils the Bunch"...

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    And again, it's apparent that without the footage, nothing would have been done
    I dont think for a minute this sort of thing never used to go on, and as you say, its not ALL the police that partake in a bit of needless assault. At least now we are in an era where anything public has a decent chance of being recorded by someone and not hidden - the "cctv footage not avialable" excuse often rolled out by the police may no longer even matter. Of course, where its only "you and them" you're screwed - "he fell down the stairs" still being the excuse of choice, along with the classic "missing police notebook"- unless they raid your home and shoot you outright, but at least then you'll get an apology and an agreement that "mistakes were made".

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I'm wondering when it was that I went to sleep and woke up in a fascist state. (Who said 1997? Own up at the back there!)
    Ha ha...

    Wake up ....You were born in one Mi Dear


    There have been protests in Dalston Shpping Centre, because the Army were going to rent a store there.

    They have opened this week and won't allow picketing.

    And there are adverts all over London trying to get people to join up as air fodder for the Yanks.

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