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Thread: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

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    Registered User NickC's Avatar
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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    [quote=Astro;542900]I think the attacker was a TA guy. Some of these guys are real thugs in and out of uniform.



    I've done 20 years in the TA and I find your comment somewhat offensive, I'll leave it at that

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    Double Trouble (9th-April-2009)

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post

    I'm sorry, but there's a difference between walking around London trying to find an unblocked path, than getting in the thick of it and deliberately getting in the way, albeit in an unthreatening manner.
    But we don't know that he was deliberately getting in the way - I agree with what you said below, we have to wait for more evidence.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Quite. But it's not as black and white as that is it? I think we have to wait for evidence from folk that were actually there to get the full picture. For example, we have no idea what Ian was doing 30 seconds before the attack
    ...however, - if he did 'wind the Police up' before it does not justify attacking him with a baton and shoving him on the floor. The Police are required to use reasonable force.

    It's not clear if his head was cut when he hit the floor, if it was, the Policeman could face a GBH charge. As I said before, following a GBH charge, if the eggshell skull principle is linked to his death, then this could escalate to a murder charge.

    It's not a good day for the Police is it, did you read about officer John Douglas getting charged with causing death by dangerous driving - travelling at 94mph in a 30 zone residential area without blues & twos, - he hit that poor 16 year old girl, - killed her instantly

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    ... An argument I saw somewhere else:
    Suppose there's a gang of us walking home from a football match. Our adrenaline's up, we want to get home. In front of us is a middle aged PC in poor health, dawdling and getting in the way. So I shove him from behind, and he falls to the ground and dies.

    Does anyone want to seriously argue that a civilian wouldn't get charged with manslaughter/murder in that scenario?
    It does not have to be a P.C. I know of cases where people have been charged with murder for knocking somebody down, who later dies. It has been quite trivial disputes, one victim was a publican that would not let someone in after the pub had closed to use the cigarette machine. Another was a moment of anger between friends. The assailant threw an impulsive puch, then walked off turning to make sure that his friend got to his feet, apparently not badly hurt.

    ----

    The Channel 4 footage shows the baton attack being launched from distance, at least 7ft away. It looks like a "go to jail" attack to me.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    I think we should wait and see what comes out after interviews etc of people around this incident. I think its easy to assume he was an innocent on the footage we can see but as we all know, these things tend to have a before that we have not seen.

    I do think however that the police can be (not all)and continue to be proven undertrained, egotistical, bigots.

    I know some people in the police force and trust me, they should not be in it.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    If the demonstrators followed the rules there would be no problem, except that most demonstrations would only be seen by hundreds. To make TV it usually needs lawbreaking and conflict.
    Nonsense. It just needs to be newsworthy. Remember a few weeks ago, the Muslims holding up the child murderer etc... signs for troops returning from the middle east? There were only a few of them, yet the media made it out to be a major incident.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    It's not clear if his head was cut when he hit the floor, if it was, the Policeman could face a GBH charge. As I said before, following a GBH charge, if the eggshell skull principle is linked to his death, then this could escalate to a murder charge.
    I understand they are carrying out a second post mortem today to get a more comprehensive idea of what actually contributed to his death. This is obviously crutial to the investigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    It's not a good day for the Police is it, did you read about officer John Douglas getting charged with causing death by dangerous driving - travelling at 94mph in a 30 zone residential area without blues & twos, - he hit that poor 16 year old girl, - killed her instantly
    Yes that is awful. There's no excuse for what he did.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Lots of demonstrators would dispute that. Of course, they would say that, wouldn't they, particularly when they're obvious trouble makers like Tom Brake, Liberal Democrat MP for Carshalton & Wallington (there as an independent observer).
    As I understand it some demonstrators were not obeying the rules. As Tom Brake says there always have been groups that attach themselves to demonstrations with the intent of causing trouble. In my youth, whilst exploring the political spectrum, I knew Young Trostkyites and BNP members who tried to organise such law-breaking.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Aside from the possible assault on Ian, the Police also need to be held accountable for the lies they told about the events that took place 5 minutes later when Ian had his heart attack, - lies which can be easily dismissed following the release of the video.

    It's no wonder that they want to make it illegal to film the Police in a public place.

    If you can ignore the dodgy commentators accent this is actually quite interesting I thought.


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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    As I understand it some demonstrators were not obeying the rules.
    Sure. But nearly all the non-police reports say the vast majority of demonstrators were peaceful, at least at first. It was when the police corralled into crowded areas and refused to let anyone leave that the mood turned uglier.

    As Tom Brake says there always have been groups that attach themselves to demonstrations with the intent of causing trouble.
    It's a sad day when one such group appears to be the police.

    OK, that was somewhat harsh, but I couldn't resist the one-liner. But there's a common report from many disparate sources that some police seemed to be spoiling for a fight.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Quite. But it's not as black and white as that is it? I think we have to wait for evidence from folk that were actually there to get the full picture. For example, we have no idea what Ian was doing 30 seconds before the attack.
    I think it is that Black and White - the policeman was in no danger but choose to attack someone. Nothing that happened 30 seconds before effects that - its not relevant.

    I'm sorry, but there's a difference between walking around London trying to find an unblocked path, than getting in the thick of it and deliberately getting in the way, albeit in an unthreatening manner.
    If someone simply got in your way would you attack them from behind or just walk round them? Surely the police are held to a HIGHER standard of behaviour than us?

    I agree that this incident should be investigated but I can only imagine what a terrifying job the police do. I think charging him for manslaughter is wrong and I suspect will never happen.
    Again - higher standard of behaviour. How many people on here would say that there should be no manslaughter charge when some stranger in the street violently and unexpectedly pushed their elderly grandfather to the ground from behind, only to have their loving patriarch die moments later. Do we not bother holding the police up to the standards of behaviour of other ordinary people simply BECAUSE they are the police and might be "a bit stressed" ?

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Nonsense. It just needs to be newsworthy. Remember a few weeks ago, the Muslims holding up the child murderer etc... signs for troops returning from the middle east? There were only a few of them, yet the media made it out to be a major incident.
    The demonstrators shown were not in their designated protest area. I believe that calling someone a child murderer without proper justification is against the law. The local news showed a pathetic gaggle of legal protestors as a background to one of their number condemning the actions of the others. Without the confrontation I doubt we would have even seen them.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post


    Quite. But it's not as black and white as that is it? I think we have to wait for evidence from folk that were actually there to get the full picture. For example, we have no idea what Ian was doing 30 seconds before the attack.


    As another video shows, it looks as if he was being beaten with a baton, just a few minutes earlier, by another police officer, sorry, thug!!

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Doolan View Post
    As another video shows, it looks as if he was being beaten with a baton, just a few minutes earlier, by another police officer, sorry, thug!!
    Anyone got a link, please?

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Doolan View Post
    As another video shows, it looks as if he was being beaten with a baton, just a few minutes earlier, by another police officer, sorry, thug!!
    Thats "Officer Thug" to you - show some respect

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    Brian Doolan (9th-April-2009)

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    I guess you can make up your own minds about this... - they do look peaceful from what I can see, - all these types of clips will be taken down soon enough I would imagine.





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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    who's clearly got the hump from already having a day from hell, shoves him out of the way and Ian loses his footing and falls over. Ian then has a heart attack and dies.
    Um - you missed the bit about the policeman whacking him with his baton behind the knees first, and shoving him immediately afterward. "a day from hell" is no defence to an unprovoked assault like that; no more than if I had a rough day at work and plonked a bloke in the mush in the pub afterward. If convicted with some form of Offence against the Person it might be mitigation (resulting in a lighter sentence) but that's as far as it will go.
    Should he be charged with manslaughter? IMO, absolutely not!
    Really? You think that a hard day at work gives policemen licence to physically attack citizens on the street?

    Do we really want to make excuses for policemen who are brutal in the exercise of their office, or do we want to hold them to account to make sure that the police force is the best, the most upstanding, the most restrained in the use of their powers, the most civilised police force in the world?

    I don't want to victimise policemen who overstep the mark in the heat of the moment; but this is clearly no such incident. There were a dozen policemen, several dogs, plenty of nuttin' going on, and one uncooperative - perhaps bloody minded - middle aged bloke. No missiles, no bottles, no bloodthirsty crowd straining at a police cordon, just a few people milling around 20 yards away.

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    dave the scaffolder (9th-April-2009)

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    There's footage that makes it pretty clear Ian was also hit by a baton.

    What ever your opinion, the law is pretty clear on this. If it wasn't "reasonable force" (which I accept is open for debate), the charge should be manslaughter.
    Providing that there is a link between the assault and the death; it's important to note that that would be up to doctors to determine whether there was a link. It seems likely, but I would want the policeman to have the full benefit of the doubt. Unless he's a complete turd, he's probably feeling like ***** right now.

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    David Franklin (9th-April-2009)

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Quite. But it's not as black and white as that is it? I think we have to wait for evidence from folk that were actually there to get the full picture. For example, we have no idea what Ian was doing 30 seconds before the attack.
    First rule of holes, DT.

    According to witnesses, he was being assaulted by another policeman. Which could possibly be why he was being so truculent in the footage we've all seen. Did you look at the footage from the different angle? You can clearly see the baton from that angle.
    I'm sorry, but there's a difference between walking around London trying to find an unblocked path, than getting in the thick of it and deliberately getting in the way, albeit in an unthreatening manner.
    Quite. But in this country, the police are only allowed to use violence 1) in self defence; 2) in dealing with someone resisting arrest; 3) to prevent a more violent crime being committed. It's quite clear that this is NOT a justifiable incident. The only question is whether this is merely - as a senior officer commented today - common assault and a serious disciplinary offence, or manslaughter.

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    Astro (9th-April-2009), dave the scaffolder (9th-April-2009)

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Providing that there is a link between the assault and the death; it's important to note that that would be up to doctors to determine whether there was a link.
    You're right of course. I was posting predicated on the stipulation that a link was shown, but it's not obvious from what I wrote.

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    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Anyone got a link, please?
    G20 protest death: new video shows Ian Tomlinson was hit with baton.

    I'm sure if I'd been felled by a baton whack on the back of the legs, I'd be slow in walking once I'd recovered enough to get back up, I might even look drunk, as DT suggests.

    Witness statements from some of the "Pot Noodle eaters"

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