Page 1 of 7 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 128

Thread: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,709
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 188 Times in 112 Posts

    Rep Power
    10

    Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Last night, I came across this on iGoogle news alerter.

    Some 25 years after Blair Peach died from a blow to the back of the head in his own front garden - an incident which led to the disbanding of the SPG but no prosecutions of any policemen - I can't tell you how disappointed I am to find that the police force still includes people who believe that the ordinary rules of society do not apply to them simply because they wear a police uniform.

    It's not clear exactly what did happen to Ian Tomlinson, but it seems clear beyond peradventure that whatever it was, was gratuitous. None of the policemen in the video seem to be under any threat at all; there are hardly any other people near to them; Tomlinson seems to be being less-than-cooperative but he has his back to them and his hands in his pockets.

    Speaking as a lawyer, I cannot see how this can be anything less than common assault on the part of at least one policeman. Common assault leading to death is murder. Obviously, there are evidential issues of establishing whether the heart attack was brought on by the assault, and that would certainly be an important question. But if it were ---

    It will be a mortal shame on our country, on the City of London, and on our government, if we do not, in due course, see that police officer on trial for whatever crime the CPS determines he has committed.

    There's a link - on the page that incorporates the video - to an article by Duncan Campbell, titled "De Menezes taught Met nothing". One of the comments to the article says "On the contrary, de Menezes taught the Met that it can get away with murder." While instinctively I recoil from that statement, it's hard to shake off the feeling that it isn't entirely incorrect.

    I really am quite disheartened. Yet another instance in which I have to face the fact that the progress I thought we were making in our effort to create a civlised society isn't going so well even in my own country.
    Last edited by Barry Shnikov; 8th-April-2009 at 11:04 AM.

  2. 6 'Thanks':

    Brian Doolan (8th-April-2009), dave the scaffolder (8th-April-2009), martingold (8th-April-2009), rubyred (8th-April-2009), stewart38 (10th-April-2009), straycat (8th-April-2009)

  3. #2
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    3,426
    Thanks
    111
    Thanked 304 Times in 179 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Even sadder - I am no longer profoundly disappointed. You are only disappointed when you expect better.

  4. Thanks:

    thainmaggiet (8th-April-2009)

  5. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,709
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 188 Times in 112 Posts

    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Even sadder - I am no longer profoundly disappointed. You are only disappointed when you expect better.
    Yes, I'm an incurable optimist. I thinking of having surgery, though.

  6. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,795
    Thanks
    469
    Thanked 474 Times in 238 Posts

    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Another proud moment for our boys in blue. I have met some lovely coppers and I have met some right sods. the Policeman who assaulted this chap should be charged with assault or even manslaughter. At the very least he should be sacked.

    DTS XXX XXX

  7. 2 'Thanks':

    martingold (8th-April-2009), rubyred (8th-April-2009)

  8. #5
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Fife.
    Posts
    5,701
    Thanks
    110
    Thanked 250 Times in 132 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Another proud moment for our boys in blue. I have met some lovely coppers and I have met some right sods. the Policeman who assaulted this chap should be charged with assault or even manslaughter. At the very least he should be sacked.

    DTS XXX XXX
    WOW. Sacked. For an unprovoked attack on an unarmed individual. (At the very least.)

    If, indeed, the incident caused the heart attack (I'm not a medic, but it does seem "reasonable" but beyond reasonable doubt?) which then caused the death of Ian Tomlinson... I would go a long way beyond sacking...

    I almost have Clockwork Orange thinking: make that policeman watch that clip every day he wakes... Force him to watch himself killing an innocent, unarmed guy acting in a non-threatening way... whilst he's eating his porridge of course...

    This country's shame just grows....

  9. Thanks:

    Astro (9th-April-2009)

  10. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    6,312
    Thanks
    314
    Thanked 199 Times in 55 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    I am saddened profoundly that this thread fails shamelessly to recognise that 40% of the officers these days are women.

    You have all to a man, ASSUMED it is a male officer... how it saddens me... it may well be a man but why do you assume it so readily.???

  11. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,795
    Thanks
    469
    Thanked 474 Times in 238 Posts

    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Good point mate it could just have easily been a woman.

    We all know the female is the deadliest of the species.

    DTS XXX XXX

  12. #8
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Fife.
    Posts
    5,701
    Thanks
    110
    Thanked 250 Times in 132 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    I am saddened profoundly that this thread fails shamelessly to recognise that 40% of the officers these days are women.

    You have all to a man, ASSUMED it is a male officer... how it saddens me... it may well be a man but why do you assume it so readily.???
    Have U watched the vid?? The first punch is thrown by a guy in a soft top. The blow that grounds Ian looks pretty much to be a guy, too. One without balls, but still a guy.

    I hope this helps. But, do feel free to prove me wrong...

  13. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,709
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 188 Times in 112 Posts

    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    I am saddened profoundly that this thread fails shamelessly to recognise that 40% of the officers these days are women.

    You have all to a man, ASSUMED it is a male officer... how it saddens me... it may well be a man but why do you assume it so readily.???
    I made no assumption; I watched the video and concluded that it was a male officer. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that I may be wrong, but it's not based on unthinking assumption.

  14. #10
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Thanks
    267
    Thanked 644 Times in 356 Posts

    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    You have all to a man, ASSUMED it is a male officer... how it saddens me... it may well be a man but why do you assume it so readily.???
    I'll quote the commentator's words from the clip.
    Here, the riot officer appears to strike Tomlinson's leg area with a baton. He then lunges at Tomlinson from behind.
    He may have called it wrong - or he may be speaking from a position of knowledge, but either way, he knows more than we do about the incident, so I'm happy to trust his judgement for now.

    A question for you though - why, exactly, in comparison to the events shown in that film, does this matter in the slightest?

  15. #11
    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Rugby
    Posts
    6,159
    Thanks
    215
    Thanked 320 Times in 162 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Have U watched the vid?? The first punch is thrown by a guy in a soft top. The blow that grounds Ian looks pretty much to be a guy, too. One without balls, but still a guy.

    I hope this helps. But, do feel free to prove me wrong...
    The 'punch' looks to me like it doesn't even touch the guy, more of a 'Oi, you' And the 'throw to the ground' (as in the article) is more of a 'push over'. I agree that there was no call whatsoever for that to happen, from the evidence on the screen. However it's not helpful to use stronger words to make the 'blame' stick. Is there any evidence as to what had happened prior to that video?

  16. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Thanks
    240
    Thanked 219 Times in 155 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    WOW. Sacked. For an unprovoked attack on an unarmed individual. (At the very least.)...
    I doubt the incident was "unprovoked".

    I suspect most, if not all, of the provocation had come from others. If the victim had been told to move on the moving slowly, with the hands in the pockets, could easily be interpreted as "up yours" body language.

    Like it or not, the officer concerned was working for us. Such protests disrupt the lives of law-abiding citizens and we have the right to go about our lawful business. I suspect most of the protestors were not obeying instructions, and some degee of force had been necessary.

    Havind said that, from what I saw the amount of force used was excessive, and I did not see any justification for even a push. The victim should not have been knocked over.
    Last edited by bigdjiver; 8th-April-2009 at 05:36 PM.

  17. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    St Neots, Cambs
    Posts
    699
    Thanks
    131
    Thanked 250 Times in 145 Posts

    Rep Power
    7

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    The assault does seem to come out of nowhere, both the strike with the baton and the push either of which seem completely unprovoked. Mr Tomlinson might have been moving slowly but that is no reason to hit or push him - walking slowly is not a crime. The officer behaved like a thug in this incident and thugs need to be dealt with - we have no need for summary justice on the streets.

    I still believe that the vast majority of police officers do a good job in very trying circumstances. But there have to be rules of engagement and these rules must be based on the same principles and laws that we all have to live by.

    Agent 000
    Licensed to Dance

  18. 2 'Thanks':

    Barry Shnikov (9th-April-2009), dave the scaffolder (8th-April-2009)

  19. #14
    Registered User John S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Deepest, Darkest Fife
    Posts
    1,182
    Thanks
    48
    Thanked 65 Times in 32 Posts

    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Assuming that Mr Tomlinson had a heart attack, there must have been a pre-condition for it, eg narrowed arteries or whatever. The actions of the police officer would not have affected the pre-condition, ie he could have had a heart attack at any time, but being hit on the legs and pushed to the ground could well have brought on the attack by increasing his stress levels.

    There are a number of cases in law where a death has followed an attack which would not (in itself) have caused death - typically, "parking rage" incidents.

    We are of course missing any footage of what immediately preceded or followed the attack, so witness statements will be needed.

    As Barry said, the evidence put before any court would be crucial, and therefore the independence of the investigating police force is vital so that justice is seen to be done - I cannot see how the City of London Police, who were engaged in policing of the protest, can be seen as impartial.

  20. #15
    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    535
    Thanks
    286
    Thanked 190 Times in 100 Posts

    Rep Power
    6

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by John S View Post
    Assuming that Mr Tomlinson had a heart attack, there must have been a pre-condition for it, eg narrowed arteries or whatever. The actions of the police officer would not have affected the pre-condition, ie he could have had a heart attack at any time, but being hit on the legs and pushed to the ground could well have brought on the attack by increasing his stress levels.
    I've also read that the law states that you must take your victim as you find him, that is, if he or she dies because of a defect withhin him because of your actions, you face a murder charge.


    Quote Originally Posted by John S View Post
    As Barry said, the evidence put before any court would be crucial, and therefore the independence of the investigating police force is vital so that justice is seen to be done - I cannot see how the City of London Police, who were engaged in policing of the protest, can be seen as impartial.

    Will whatever happened before the event make much difference, - it does, in my uninformed opinion look like unreasonable force to me, as the fact remains he had his hands in his pockets and his back turned.

    I've just read that the man was not a protestor, he was a newspaper vendor on his way home from work, a City of London spokeman has just confirmed this.

  21. #16
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    3,426
    Thanks
    111
    Thanked 304 Times in 179 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    I've also read that the law states that you must take your victim as you find him, that is, if he or she dies because of a defect withhin him because of your actions, you face a murder charge.
    I am not a lawyer (and Barry is, and agrees with you), but most of the commentary citing the 'Eggshell skulll rule' has indicated it would normally be manslaughter (I think that's because you need intent for murder)?

    Will whatever happened before the event make much difference, - it does, in my uninformed opinion look like unreasonable force to me, as the fact remains he had his hands in his pockets and his back turned.
    It's funny: I look at that footage and think "I'm surprised he wasn't injured more badly", other people are saying "It was hardly a shove".

    But it looks like a hard, hard hit to me.

    I've just read that the man was not a protestor, he was a newspaper vendor on his way home from work, a City of London spokeman has just confirmed this.
    The Evening Standard is all over this - on one level, it's quite funny; ES would normally be first to defend the forces of law and order, but as it was an "Evening Standard seller" that was killed, they are making quite a fuss.

  22. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,795
    Thanks
    469
    Thanked 474 Times in 238 Posts

    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    The thing is there are some really horrible Police Officers. Now I was married to a WPC for 8 years and some of her colleagues were really marvelous people, whilst some of them, my ex wife included, were just racist bullies.

    The Police force is representative of society as a whole, ie we have some nice decent coppers and some right horrible ones as well. This Police Officer should come forward and explain him/herself, however he/she is probably very frightened and unsure what to do at this time. His/her colleagues should do what they are paid for and report him/her for the crime he/she perpetrated.

    DTS XXX XXX

  23. 2 'Thanks':

    Agente Secreto (8th-April-2009), Ascot Lady (8th-April-2009)

  24. #18
    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    535
    Thanks
    286
    Thanked 190 Times in 100 Posts

    Rep Power
    6

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post

    It's funny: I look at that footage and think "I'm surprised he wasn't injured more badly", other people are saying "It was hardly a shove".

    But it looks like a hard, hard hit to me.
    The baton strike from another angle

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6061961.ece

  25. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    East Kilbride, Sco
    Posts
    903
    Thanks
    97
    Thanked 112 Times in 76 Posts

    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    I am saddened profoundly that this thread fails shamelessly to recognise that 40% of the officers these days are women.

    You have all to a man, ASSUMED it is a male officer... how it saddens me... it may well be a man but why do you assume it so readily.???
    Because of the officer's build ?

  26. #20
    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    535
    Thanks
    286
    Thanked 190 Times in 100 Posts

    Rep Power
    6

    Re: Profoundly disappointed and sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I am not a lawyer (and Barry is, and agrees with you), but most of the commentary citing the 'Eggshell skulll rule' has indicated it would normally be manslaughter (I think that's because you need intent for murder)?
    If the Police Officer is prosecuted for GBH, and the eggshell skull relationship can be proved, it appears that the man's death could then be escalated to a murder charge:

    From the CPS website:



    Subject to three exceptions (see voluntary manslaughter below) the crime of murder is committed, where a person:
    • of sound mind and discretion (i.e. sane):
    • unlawfully kills (i.e. not self-defence or other justified killing)
    • any reasonable creature (human being)
    • in being (born alive and breathing through its own lungs
    • under the Queen's Peace
    • with intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH).
    Last edited by Phil_dB; 8th-April-2009 at 10:36 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •