View Poll Results: Does your local class night teach floorcraft

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  • Don't be silly - it's moves all the way.

    18 64.29%
  • Yep, floorcraft mentioned sometimes

    7 25.00%
  • Give my teacher a gold star, floorcraft regularly mentioned

    2 7.14%
  • I'm proud to be an inconsiderate numpty - who needs floorcraft?

    1 3.57%
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Thread: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

  1. #61
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    For me, it means developing the awareness and skill to be able to control my dance with my partner so that we have a good dance without adversely affecting others around us. So in short floorcraft could be explained simply as avoiding collisions and keeping the flow of your dance. Learning to appreciate the impact that your dancing has on others and adjusting this as required. Often easier to understand if you look for examples of what might be bad floorcraft.

    Sometimes poor floorcraft doesn't even mean you're dancing - we all hate the idiots that walk directly across the dance floor to get to the bar. At the start of a dance poor floorcraft could be the person that reverses onto the floor dragging his/her partner with them and barging others out of the way to get in. When dancing there are far too many examples of bad floorcraft such as moving in a different direction to the masses, using big moves on a crowded floor, dipping/dropping partners into the path of others, closing down someone else's slot. I'm sure that the real dancers out there can give a far better description than me.

    Beginners often have bad floorcraft since they are so busy trying to remember moves and keep contact with their partner that they have no capacity for taking note of what is around them. We've all been that dancer but some of us hopefully get better with experience. That being said I know people that have been dancing for many years that are truly apalling in their use of floorcraft.

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  2. #62
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Thanks. A lot of that seems obvious, though I guess it isn't for some people! At my venue it isn't taught, its all moves, technique, and a bit of dance ettiquette.

    For me, I suppose I'm pretty good but can probably improve- I find a good space to dance in, but then I assume that no one is going to crash into me, and as a beginner on a dancefloor which is barely ever crowded I haven't crashed yet.

  3. #63
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    I would say that it's adjusting your dancing to the environment on the floor:
    - If it's busy, then take up less room than if it's not.
    - If your 'environment' changes suddenly, then being able to adapt and avoid mishap.
    - Being able to take advantage of openings within the dance floor space.
    - Being able to predict/be aware of other dancers space and manoeuvre yourself and your partner to both avoid and be courteous towards them.

    Most noticeable lack of floorcraft is seen on travelling moves where folk try and travel through the dance floor/dancers regardless of who' sin the way. Or 'blind' movements where the lead just expects the space to be clear where they step or place the follower.
    This is normally compounded by arrogance of everyone else being at fault for their lack of floorcraft because they didn't get out of the way

  4. #64
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neu Wien View Post
    Thanks. A lot of that seems obvious, though I guess it isn't for some people! At my venue it isn't taught, its all moves, technique, and a bit of dance ettiquette.

    For me, I suppose I'm pretty good but can probably improve- I find a good space to dance in, but then I assume that no one is going to crash into me, and as a beginner on a dancefloor which is barely ever crowded I haven't crashed yet.
    I think that the results of the survey seem to hint that floorcraft is hardly ever mentioned anywhere. You're probably lucky to dance in a venue with space, some of the UK freestyles are so busy that finding space to dance is a real challenge. It would all be easier though if some people paid more attention to where they are in relation to others on the floor, but sadly they don't. All you can do is try and be aware of others and take steps to avoid them when required.

  5. #65
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    A few random points:
    • In most forms of partner dance, the person facing in the direction of travel has responsibility for avoiding a collision. I don't see why this rule shouldn't be applied to modern jive, rather than expecting the lead to know what's going on behind them.
    • Despite that, I usually check over my shoulder before leading the woman behind me. On a busy, crowded floor, I am constantly looking around before any initiating any move.
    • I tend to lead a lot of travelling moves, and cover a lot more ground than most people when travelling, so this means I have to be very conscious of floorcraft. The main time I get into trouble is when someone else moves into the space I'm heading for. But this rarely results in a collision.
    • I usually dance in a slot and get particularly annoyed when I travel along the slot and other people move into it, meaning I can't return. I find that really inconsiderate.
    • Regardless of whether you're dancing in the slot or rotating, all moves can be compressed and the majority can return you back to your starting point.
    • The worst people for floorcraft are rarely beginners. They are usually some of the more experienced dancers, who often do not attend classes. They seem to possess considerably more moves than ability.
    • I have no patience for people who are not dancing taking up space on the dancefloor. That should be a capital offence.
    • Good dancers move around the floor intentionally, using whatever space is available. Bad dancers move around the floor because they can't control their movements.
    • I dread any freestyle after a class that's included travelling moves.
    • A huge part of floorcraft is basic human decency: being aware of other people, (tacitly) co-operating with them, and apologising when you don't get it right - regardless of fault.
    • The lead should know where the move is going to end. But a poor follow can change that. For example, if they travel during a spot turn, or drift off line. Of course, the lead has to try to account for that, but let's not be silly and blame the lead for the follow not following well: the follow is my partner in dancing, not a puppet.

    There's one guy at my local venues with whom I always seem to have near collisions. With him, this is a non-issue: we're both reasonably aware of our dance space, avoid anything serious/dangerous (and almost all actual collisions) and we're generally friendly, considerate and respectful towards one another. There are other people who regularly, and obliviously, drift into my dance space. They, I find, are far more annoying.
    Last edited by geoff332; 4th-August-2009 at 03:49 PM.

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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    IMHO floorcraft is not taught but it is also very difficult to look after your partner when you send them in a certain direction to do a spin and they then step back in a totally different place to what you expected

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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    IMHO floorcraft is not taught but it is also very difficult to look after your partner when you send them in a certain direction to do a spin and they then step back in a totally different place to what you expected
    Hmmmmm that'll be cos some of us just close our eyes & pray!!! xx

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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascot Lady View Post
    Hmmmmm that'll be cos some of us just close our eyes & pray!!! xx
    That will be the infamous Gerry flat back move

  9. #69
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    In most forms of partner dance, the person facing in the direction of travel has responsibility for avoiding a collision. I don't see why this rule shouldn't be applied to modern jive, rather than expecting the lead to know what's going on behind them.
    That's particularly difficult when the direction of travel is poorly defined. In a slotted dance, you pretty much know which way your parter will travel; and you're aware of the direction nearby dancers are likely to move.

    In Ceroc, each couple forms a nucleus from which they may spring out in any direction.

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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by RockHopper View Post
    In Ceroc, each couple forms a nucleus from which they may spring out in any direction.
    Not at all. Even when I don't dance in the slot, I know precisely which direction I intend my partner to go and it's patently obvious which direction the move will end up in.

    That many dancers can't control their dancing and spring in any direction is an indictment of their ability, not of the dance itself. That lack of control is part of the very poor floorcraft that ruins so many nights.

  11. #71
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by RockHopper View Post
    In Ceroc, each couple forms a nucleus from which they may spring out in any direction.
    Sadly I think that this is more of a reality in MJ than I like. I don't think that the average class spends time teaching people how to control the direction of their movement. The result of this is the 'springer' (I must add a category to Tarragon's dancers lists) that can take off in unnervingly random directions much to the frustration of all around. This kind of person is increasingly prevalent on the main floor at freestlyes and I hate to say is even infecting some of the blues rooms

    Like Geoff332 I spend a lot of my time looking over my shoulder trying to maintain spatial awareness so I can steer my partner and I around the moving roadblocks on the dance floor. I've been pleasantly surprised recently by the similar spatial awareness practised by some of my partners who had helped to steer me away from collision with the 'springer'.

    I can't help feeling that some basic practice on class nights in directional control would be of great benefit to all.

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  12. #72
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    A few random points:
    • In most forms of partner dance, the person facing in the direction of travel has responsibility for avoiding a collision. I don't see why this rule shouldn't be applied to modern jive, rather than expecting the lead to know what's going on behind them.
    • Despite that, I usually check over my shoulder before leading the woman behind me. On a busy, crowded floor, I am constantly looking around before any initiating any move.
    • I tend to lead a lot of travelling moves, and cover a lot more ground than most people when travelling, so this means I have to be very conscious of floorcraft. The main time I get into trouble is when someone else moves into the space I'm heading for. But this rarely results in a collision.
    • I usually dance in a slot and get particularly annoyed when I travel along the slot and other people move into it, meaning I can't return. I find that really inconsiderate.
    • Regardless of whether you're dancing in the slot or rotating, all moves can be compressed and the majority can return you back to your starting point.
    • The worst people for floorcraft are rarely beginners. They are usually some of the more experienced dancers, who often do not attend classes. They seem to possess considerably more moves than ability.
    • I have no patience for people who are not dancing taking up space on the dancefloor. That should be a capital offence.
    • Good dancers move around the floor intentionally, using whatever space is available. Bad dancers move around the floor because they can't control their movements.
    • I dread any freestyle after a class that's included travelling moves.
    • A huge part of floorcraft is basic human decency: being aware of other people, (tacitly) co-operating with them, and apologising when you don't get it right - regardless of fault.
    • The lead should know where the move is going to end. But a poor follow can change that. For example, if they travel during a spot turn, or drift off line. Of course, the lead has to try to account for that, but let's not be silly and blame the lead for the follow not following well: the follow is my partner in dancing, not a puppet.

    There's one guy at my local venues with whom I always seem to have near collisions. With him, this is a non-issue: we're both reasonably aware of our dance space, avoid anything serious/dangerous (and almost all actual collisions) and we're generally friendly, considerate and respectful towards one another. There are other people who regularly, and obliviously, drift into my dance space. They, I find, are far more annoying.
    I agree with everything above (except for my basic opposition to capital punishment).

  13. #73
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    If you were at Rugby last night you'd know there isn't enough taught, I feel quite quite sore after several collisions though I know others who were alot worse off (it was a busy night and of course there were dancers there who were very aware of their dance space / lead, but of the new faces I tried I'd say 90% were thinking of moves rather than where's free/safe).
    In addition I found quite a lack of dance etiquette (it was crowded round the edges) but people were carrying drinks between dancers, short cutting across the dance floor and at one point someone walked straight between my friend and her dance partner mid dance!

  14. #74
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    A few random points:
    • In most forms of partner dance, the person facing in the direction of travel has responsibility for avoiding a collision. I don't see why this rule shouldn't be applied to modern jive, rather than expecting the lead to know what's going on behind them.
    • Despite that, I usually check over my shoulder before leading the woman behind me. On a busy, crowded floor, I am constantly looking around before any initiating any move.
    While I think that the follow should exercise the usual common sense (eg don't collide with people when you can avoid it), I believe that the onus should still be on the leader to keeping the follower from potential collisions. I think of it as being a little like motorway driving - you just make sure you keep a mental map of what's going on around you on the dancefloor. Your practice of always looking where you're about to send your partner is a good one.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    • The lead should know where the move is going to end. But a poor follow can change that. For example, if they travel during a spot turn, or drift off line. Of course, the lead has to try to account for that, but let's not be silly and blame the lead for the follow not following well: the follow is my partner in dancing, not a puppet.
    An experienced dancer knows very early in a dance (usually within a couple of bars) what kind of follow they are dancing with. If I'm dancing with someone who travels in unpredictable ways, and I'm silly enough to lead a move where she's like to do that near another couple, then yes - if there's a collision, it's something I could have avoided, and I'm to blame. There's usually ways of varying my lead to minimise that possibility though.

    In the truly extreme case where I cannot control my partner's direction no matter what, and I consider there to be a strong danger of collisions as a result, I should strongly consider ending the dance.

  15. #75
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Some guys use the lady as a battering ram to create space. As a whole I dont think we like to be 'flung around' like a rag doll. At some venues I keep an eye on space myself. I agree, its not always the beginners that are the worst. Its the intermediates that want to show off a fancy new move they just learnt.

  16. #76
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    I know the lead has a lot to think about so when I dance I really try to watch my positioning and try to stay on a slot even when jiving. I do have to say that even when you are west coasting and staying firmly on the slot that people still bump into you, so I feel that floorcraft should be mentioned more during classes (Ideally!).

  17. #77
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    While I think that the follow should exercise the usual common sense (eg don't collide with people when you can avoid it), I believe that the onus should still be on the leader to keeping the follower from potential collisions. I think of it as being a little like motorway driving - you just make sure you keep a mental map of what's going on around you on the dancefloor. Your practice of always looking where you're about to send your partner is a good one.



    An experienced dancer knows very early in a dance (usually within a couple of bars) what kind of follow they are dancing with. If I'm dancing with someone who travels in unpredictable ways, and I'm silly enough to lead a move where she's like to do that near another couple, then yes - if there's a collision, it's something I could have avoided, and I'm to blame. There's usually ways of varying my lead to minimise that possibility though.

    In the truly extreme case where I cannot control my partner's direction no matter what, and I consider there to be a strong danger of collisions as a result, I should strongly consider ending the dance.
    You're obviously one of those people who thinks the leader is responsible for all. I prefer partner dancing where the partner is an active participant in the dance. I suspect you don't mean it quite that strongly, but even the suggestion of absolving either partner from responsibility is bad for floorcraft. Of course I adjust my dancing for the follow. Most commonly by avoiding dancing with people who I know don't follow well (I don't enjoy it, I suspect they don't either). If I have to spend all my time worrying about what the follow is going to do rather than dancing, it's really no fun at all.

    The main reason the lead takes a bigger responsibility for avoiding collisions is simply because the lead spins less, so can see more easily and because the lead is more often facing the direction of travel. But that's not the same as saying the lead has all the responsibility. But that responsibility is very much shared; to suggest otherwise ignores the fact it's a partner dance.

  18. #78
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    You're obviously one of those people who thinks the leader is responsible for all. I prefer partner dancing where the partner is an active participant in the dance.
    Yes, I am, and yes I believe in equal dance partnerships. Although this may sound to some like a contradiction, it is nothing of the kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I suspect you don't mean it quite that strongly, but even the suggestion of absolving either partner from responsibility is bad for floorcraft.
    I do mean it very strongly. While common sense should apply - if a follow is about to be sent crashing into someone on the dance floor, and is able to abort what she's doing, of course she should do so. However - I consider it to be one of my jobs as a leader to ensure that she is never placed in that position. I would like her to focus on following, playing off my lead, musical interpretation, enjoying the dance etc etc etc, rather than worrying about whether I've seen that couple behind us and have allowed for them in my plans, and whether she should abort the move before it's too late... maybe I have seen them, and know that what I'm leading won't cause any problems and aborting will mess up the dance....

    When I'm leading, I'm the one with the plan. Let me be the one who worries about all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Of course I adjust my dancing for the follow. Most commonly by avoiding dancing with people who I know don't follow well (I don't enjoy it, I suspect they don't either).
    If you'll forgive me for saying so, that isn't adjusting. That's just avoiding the issue - this is your decision and perogative, but I believe that if I took that approach, I would be a much poorer leader than I am now.

    To me, adjusting to my partner means a large number of things. With weaker follows, it includes modifying my lead when something doesn't work, and learning how to lead her in a way which will work. Every leader leads differently, and every follower responds differently. Part of the joy of partner dancing is in experiencing this, adapting to it, and making the most of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The main reason the lead takes a bigger responsibility for avoiding collisions is simply because the lead spins less, so can see more easily and because the lead is more often facing the direction of travel.
    Disagree. The lead takes that responsibility because he / she is giving the dance its shape and direction.... and this has to factor in the state of the floor, and the other dancers on it.

  19. #79
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Last night at Jumpin' Jaks was an ideal environment to add some words about floorcraft.

    The place was absolutely heaving - 171 bods, I was told. TBF though, I actually only had one collision all evening, which is about par for the course.

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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    When I'm leading, I'm the one with the plan. Let me be the one who worries about all that.
    That's all very well if you're a good leader with a good sense of floorcraft and spatial awareness. However, not every lead meets that description. We all know people with poor floorcraft who can't be trusted to watch out for their partners, and until that changes (fat chance) sensible followers will continue to be cautious until they know they can trust the person they're dancing with.

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