View Poll Results: Does your local class night teach floorcraft

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  • Don't be silly - it's moves all the way.

    18 64.29%
  • Yep, floorcraft mentioned sometimes

    7 25.00%
  • Give my teacher a gold star, floorcraft regularly mentioned

    2 7.14%
  • I'm proud to be an inconsiderate numpty - who needs floorcraft?

    1 3.57%
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Thread: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

  1. #41
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    I suspect more problems are caused by rotators than by slotters.
    Generally, you have a point. But this made me think of my previous trip to Hammersmith.

    I was watching two very impressive dancnig couples down near the stage - one doing slotted MJ, the other doing WCS. None of the rotating dancers around got in their way, and vice versa. But both leads did manage to send their follows crashing into each other back to back

  2. #42
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    I suspect more problems are caused by rotators than by slotters.

    Slotted dancing requires a precise lead and some basic following technique.

    An imprecise lead or poor following will tend to result in rotational ceroc.

    Somebody who can lead his partner in one specific direction (slot) can probably lead his partner in any particular specific direction, and provided he is aware of his neighbouring dancers he can avoid collisions.
    maybe they are able to but imho they just dont in my experience you will get wcs or slotted dancers that seem to think they own a straight line up and down the dance floor whoever else is about

    One of the worse venues i have ever attended for accidents is hammersmith which if i am right is why this thread was started there you will see some of the top technically correct dancers smashing into people with no concern whatsoever that they might just be doing something dangerous


    This just goes to show that its nonsense to say that because slotted (in your opinion) is more technically chalenging it leads to better manners on the dance floor
    The whole thing does come down to pure common sense ,decency and politeness. Both slotted and rotational dancers can have all three of these attributes
    An accident is an accident which can easily be rectified by a smile and apology

  3. #43
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    I have also heard that it is the leaders responsibility to make sure that the follower doesn't collide with anyone. I think this is an unrealistic oversimplification because it lets followers off the hook in terms of also playing their part in their own safety. It also assumes that the leader can always mitigate collisions that are caused by nearby dancers suddenly barreling into where they are. This is simply unrealistic. A good leader can try to rescue a situation, avert a potential problem, BUT he cannot guarantee it.
    No, the lead can't guarantee it. And if the follower does everything right, they cannot guarantee it.

    And reading your post puts the majority of the "blame" on the follower rather than the third party or the lead. Rule number one: Don't hurt your partner. This includes putting them into dangerous situations where there is a greater chance of injury.

    In order for a follower to dance with a lead, they have to trust them. Implicitly. The follower is putting their safety and welfare into the lead's hands (literally). The lead has to build this trust and work through it. Part of this trust is not allowing the follower to injure themselves or be injured by a third party. A good lead dancing with a good follower could lead them to dance into a chair, a pillar, someone else, ... if they chose to: the lead would lead where they follower should go and the follow would trust that it's not over a cliff.

    If the follower has a collission on the dance floor, then they have been put in the wrong place, at the wrong time by the follower. If the lead has a collision, then they have not watched where they were going... although the follower {should} actually take some responsibility for warning the lead that they are about to step off the stage or into a puddle or someone is about to decapitate them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Aberdeen is the only place where I’ve actually been knocked to the floor in the middle of a dance, and neither the guy who thrust me backwards into another dancer, nor the dancer with their foot stuck out which tripped me up seemed to care or apologise
    I can only apologise on their behalf and be embarrassed that it happened on "my turf"

    Of course there is also the generally selfish attitude of some people, in their refusal not only to apologise, but also to move out of other people’s way. Some dancers seem to think that whatever space there is belongs to them, and that everyone else should get out of their way.
    I'm confused... If there is space available, is a lead not allowed to take advantage of it? I agree about making everyone get out their way - that's just arrogance. But why not step into a space that another dancer has vacated? ... Maybe we should all just dance blues

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    The reason we are all struggling with it is because its not mentioned at any classes run by Ceroc and most people start this way.
    I would have to dissagree with this: In my experiance it is mentioned. It's been a while, but I seem to remember floorcraft being specifically taught - especially in workshops (which Ceroc try and get most beginners to go to.)

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    Slotted dancing requires a precise lead and some basic following technique.

    An imprecise lead or poor following will tend to result in rotational ceroc.
    Slotted dancing requires the follower to keep themselves in a slot, no mattter what the lead does.

    An imprecise or poor lead will tend to result in more likliehood of collision, no matter where you are trying to lead the follow. A precise lead and some basic following technique will tend to result in muchly reduced chance of collisions.


    What "makes" good floor craft is not the fact that lots of folk flailing around in close proximity could result in collisions, but what the folk do when they occur.

  4. #44
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    No, the lead can't guarantee it. And if the follower does everything right, they cannot guarantee it.

    And reading your post puts the majority of the "blame" on the follower rather than the third party or the lead.
    Possibly your reading of the post does, but certainly not mine. Sure, the majority of responsibility lies with the lead. But after a considerate lead does the best he can, a lot of the remaining accidents could be averted by the follower. There's an element of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Cheese_Model here: it is more realistic to try to get the lead to avoid 90% of accidents, and the follow to avoid 90% of the ones the lead doesn't avoid, than it is to try to get the lead to avoid 99% of accidents and tell the follower it's not her responsibility to try to avoid collisions.

    I'm confused... If there is space available, is a lead not allowed to take advantage of it? I agree about making everyone get out their way - that's just arrogance. But why not step into a space that another dancer has vacated?
    I remember having this discussion with you before. If I really danced like that (to the full extent) next to you, I'm confident you and your partner would be really uncomfortable about it - to the extent that I'd be surprised if you didn't walk off the floor. If you didn't, I bet you would have at least one collision that was "your fault", in that I was stationary at the time of collision. (To be clear, it wouldn't really be your fault - I would be being incredibly obnoxious).

    What "makes" good floor craft is not the fact that lots of folk flailing around in close proximity could result in collisions, but what the folk do when they occur.
    No, that's really not true. If everyone did aerials at Hammersmith, but apologised when they kicked someone in the head, it would still be really crappy floorcraft.

    Speaking for myself, and without wanting to be complacent: it's actually very rare for me or my partner to have collisions during social dancing. But it's very common for me to have to suddenly change what I'm doing because someone has moved into our space (or often, a 'space' that isn't really there).

    So my dance experience is seriously impacted by people with poor floorcraft even when no actual collisions occur.

    Positive note: I was at Ealing tonight; apparently there were 220 people (about 80% over what I'd personally call comfortable numbers for the space). I saw very little in the way of worrysome floorcraft (and I was looking for it, in the light of this discussion). Again, I'd have to say that most of what worried me were from the "should know a lot better" crowd; although there's the usual "front of stage" dynamic going on that may have biased things.

  5. #45
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    And reading your post puts the majority of the "blame" on the follower rather than the third party or the lead. Rule number one: Don't hurt your partner. This includes putting them into dangerous situations where there is a greater chance of injury. .
    I really would appreciate it if you would read my posts

  6. #46
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    On a busy dancefloor (ie hammersmith last saturday) it is likely that your dancing area will overlap with the area of at least one other couple. In my opinion it is easier if the other couple (s) are slotted as you know where they are likely to be. This means they are easier to avoid because you know when they will be in your area. People who arent doing slotted dancing can be more random and at some point you are likely to bump into them. They also have more of a habit of their moves gradually causing them to migrate across the dance floor for one reason or another. They are also likely to be less experienced and maybe floorcraft isnt at the front of their mind (there are a lot of things for leads to think about)

    One answer is to make the moves smaller/safer. I am certainly not completely blameless when it comes to floorcraft but my travelling moves i either stop doing or try to make as small as possible. Moves like full-length drops are IMO irresponsible on a busy dance floor and it does annoy me when they happen, i dont go to ceroc to put myself in the situation where i could end up treading on someone's face.

  7. #47
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    I suspect more problems are caused by rotators than by slotters.
    [snip]

    Somebody who can lead his partner in one specific direction (slot) can probably lead his partner in any particular specific direction, and provided he is aware of his neighbouring dancers he can avoid collisions.

    If a leader cannot control his partner enough to keep her on one line, how can he keep her from collision?
    To me this reads like you are equating preferred dancing style with dancing/floorcraft skill. Just because someone is dancing in a slot doesn't mean that they will have great floor craft. It just means that the area they intend to dance in is a set "track".

    At one of the WCS lessons I've been to recently, I was bumped into by another couple. We were all dancing in slots but we were all beginners - focus on the count and moves we had learned and were trying to execute took priority.

    You could argue that not dancing in a slot allows you more freedom to avoid collisions. If I'm dancing slotted, and my lead sees me about to collide into something, surely the requirement to make me change a direction would throw me off slightly? (I don't have tremendous experience of slotted only dancing so this is coming from "I imagine")

    Surely it's the skill that you have as a dancer, and the priority you give to floor craft that determines the amount of collisions you will have (in the greater sense since I appreciate the ineivtable will happen that will be outside of your control).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jhutch View Post
    [on non slotted dancers]They are also likely to be less experienced and maybe floorcraft isnt at the front of their mind (there are a lot of things for leads to think about)
    That's taking it a bit far surely? Because someone is not dancing in a fixed track they are likely to be inexperienced? From what I see of a regular class night, the punters are taught in tracks (it just makes it easier for teaching to be taught in lines than by in random collections of people). The newbies will continue this in the freestyles, because that is all they know. Yes their focus, as I've said, will probably be on the moves because there's only so much you can focus on when you are new, but they are still largely in "slots". It's only when you get a little more confident that you would start to roam the floor more.

    Reading your post, the only thing I can think is maybe you are focussing on big jive freestyles, where there are not as many "beginners" present, quite a lot of intermediates, and some advanced dancers who have taken up soemthing like WCS. I suppose that would make it look like everyone who is "good" is a slotted dancer. It's still a stretch tho IMO to make that direct link between skill and slots/rotation.

  8. #48
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Perhaps some of the more experienced dancers on here who do other forms of dance nights such as salsa, milongas, ballroom etc could tell us if 'floorcraft' is a problem across all forms of dance or just MJ and what the other dance form classes/freestyles do about it.

  9. #49
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    Perhaps some of the more experienced dancers on here who do other forms of dance nights such as salsa, milongas, ballroom etc could tell us if 'floorcraft' is a problem across all forms of dance or just MJ and what the other dance form classes/freestyles do about it.
    Not directly answering your question, but I was at the Albert Hall competition last year - huge huge dance floor, maybe 12 couples on the floor at once. In the later rounds, they would all be top professionals. And there were several collisions where people went flying.

    It seemed to me that many actively tried to implement the 'crowd out the other dancers' school of anti-floorcraft. I found it appalling, to be honest.

  10. #50
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    It is more realistic to try to get the lead to avoid 90% of accidents, and the follow to avoid 90% of the ones the lead doesn't avoid, than it is to try to get the lead to avoid 99% of accidents and tell the follower it's not her responsibility to try to avoid collisions.
    I agree in principle, but I don't agree that the lead should expect the follower to mop up the percentage of accidents that the lead misses. Ie. If the lead thinks that they are doing all they can to avoid collision, but an accident happens, then obviously it must be the follower or the third party to blame - why apologise when it's not your fault? This attitude irks me: Who is to say that the accident was within her 9% and not in your 90%? Statistically it's much more likely to be your fault.

    I remember having this discussion with you before. If I really danced like that (to the full extent) next to you, I'm confident you and your partner would be really uncomfortable about it - to the extent that I'd be surprised if you didn't walk off the floor. If you didn't, I bet you would have at least one collision that was "your fault", in that I was stationary at the time of collision. (To be clear, it wouldn't really be your fault - I would be being incredibly obnoxious).
    That would be interesting & fun ... I think the more likely outcome would be swapping partners or stealing. I'm confident that I (and my partner) could avoid all but a deliberate blind-side.

    I would like to test that theory some time :gauntlet:

    So my dance experience is seriously impacted by people with poor floorcraft even when no actual collisions occur.
    Isn't that part of your skill? Part of the dance? Adapting to the music, your partner and the space? I will travel the length and breadth of an almost empty dance floor. I will dance on the spot where there is only just elbow room. Everyone's dancing is impacted by other people and how/where they move on the dance floor.

    Just a thought: Does it impact a dancer more because they know more moves that utilise more space?
    If this is the case, would a solution be to increase the repertoire of 'smaller' moves? {Is this the same as making the 'big' moves smaller?}

  11. #51
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I agree in principle, but I don't agree that the lead should expect the follower to mop up the percentage of accidents that the lead misses.
    I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the follower to do the best she can to avoid collisions. I am frankly puzzled how you could argue anything different.

    Ie. If the lead thinks that they are doing all they can to avoid collision, but an accident happens, then obviously it must be the follower or the third party to blame - why apologise when it's not your fault?
    Because it's polite.

    This attitude irks me: Who is to say that the accident was within her 9% and not in your 90%? Statistically it's much more likely to be your fault.
    Did you read the Wiki article? Did you understand it?

    That would be interesting & fun ... I think the more likely outcome would be swapping partners or stealing. I'm confident that I (and my partner) could avoid all but a deliberate blind-side.
    No. It. Wouldn't. If I did it for real, someone would get hurt (unless you actively ran away from me for the whole dance).

    Everyone's dancing is impacted by other people and how/where they move on the dance floor.
    Which is why floorcraft is a lot more than "avoiding collisions".

    Just a thought: Does it impact a dancer more because they know more moves that utilise more space?
    No, in general, the more 'considerate' dancer is impacted more, because they're the one who gives way to avoid a collision, or to keep a 'safe' distance.

  12. #52
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Did you read the Wiki article? Did you understand it?

    I did... not a scooby doo???

    Do we need to be wearing layers of Swiss cheese to reduce human error when we turn up to dance..???

  13. #53
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by jemessex View Post
    I did... not a scooby doo???

    Do we need to be wearing layers of Swiss cheese to reduce human error when we turn up to dance..???
    One way to get more space.

  14. #54
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Fi View Post
    At one of the WCS lessons I've been to recently, I was bumped into by another couple. We were all dancing in slots but we were all beginners - focus on the count and moves we had learned and were trying to execute took priority.

    You could argue that not dancing in a slot allows you more freedom to avoid collisions.
    I find that as a (not very good) WCS lead, I end up facing the same way for relatively long periods of time. (As I don't know many WCS moves there may not be changes of places for long periods.) So I have sometimes felt that unless I make a conscious effort to look around, I have less awareness of what's going on around me.
    Love dance, will travel

  15. #55
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    No. It. Wouldn't. If I did it for real, someone would get hurt (unless you actively ran away from me for the whole dance).
    Yes. It would be fun.
    The only injury you may cause would be to your partner. Deliberately. And that's breaking rule number one. I am confident that I could keep myself and my partner from harm (while still dancing). And probably keep your partner from harm too.
    ...Assuming you were just trying to invade my space rather than performing aerials- then I would be actively running away.

    Why would it be fun? because it turns it into a sport. A test of skill. My partner or me make unintentional contact, then we loose. You or your partner make contact and we loose. But we both have to be dancing - ie moving to the music. A-rhythmical moves are cheating. You have to not deliberately hurt your partner. I can hear the trailers now: "Combat dancing! Coming in the Fall! New to CBS! Murder on the dance floor? you ain't seen nothing yet! Watch the dreaded leg-sweep ronde! Arm-jive elbows come into play! And the ever popular unwrap decapitation! Only on pay-per-view! From CBS!"

    You don't think there are folk who could have fun with that? {... erm... not on a normal social dance floor it must be said ... it's not very sociable.}

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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Afternoon Sporty Jeff from Welwyn Garden City, all good observations. Why don't you pop over and see me one Thursday at Hatfield, things are looking, especially with Sara White now ding the second lesson, and yours truely doing the D.J.side of things.
    Best regards, Colin "The Train".

  17. #57
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    no

    and poor floorcraft deters people from attending events

  18. #58
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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    I can't say that floorcraft is taught at my local venues (but neither really are musicality and style - hense why I dance all over the place) but generally there are gentle comments said to beginners / new folks. However one venue I go to I know there is someone there who has had lots of complaints made against him and been talked to on a number of occasions by the owners but doesn't listen, so us girls natter and point out who to avoid and the guys have an awareness as to where he is and prepare with blocking / getting safely out of his way moves.
    I know last night I was having serious issues at Berko which was really busy and one guy well I should have walked off the dance floor but I'm still lacking a bit of the confidence to do it as he put me into ballroom drops twice (not from a lead I would have recognised else I would have tried to put in more of a refusal) and I very nearly was stood on, the first time I thought my loud hmm and obvious dissatisfaction would have made him realise and I honestly thought it was a mistake (not quite realising how close the other dancers were and that you know they may move into that space) but the second time I just didn't think someone could be so stupid. Problem being I didn't get his name (as I just wanted off the dance floor) and so couldn't really go to one of the organisers - I know some may think well she should have said to him myself but I just wanted to get away. Really threw my dancing off for the rest of the night


    On a side note: zimbabwean let me know when you're next up North and I'll make sure I get to Bowden etc

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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by colinreeves View Post
    Afternoon Sporty Jeff from Welwyn Garden City, all good observations. Why don't you pop over and see me one Thursday at Hatfield, things are looking, especially with Sara White now ding the second lesson, and yours truely doing the D.J.side of things.
    Best regards, Colin "The Train".
    Colin "The Train" may I thank you for the music at Hatfield last Thursday?
    I came along for the 1st time with a friend who was demo-ing with Sara & was REALLY impressed with the tracks. Where else do you DJ?

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    Re: Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

    Um... what is floorcraft?!?

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