Is it the slotters or the rotators that cause the problem? Or is it having both in the same place?!!! :P
Don't be silly - it's moves all the way.
Yep, floorcraft mentioned sometimes
Give my teacher a gold star, floorcraft regularly mentioned
I'm proud to be an inconsiderate numpty - who needs floorcraft?
I can't remember if I was told in the beginners refreshers lesson, or maybe I read it here, but I always remember being told that it is the leaders responsibility to make sure the Follow doesn't colide with anyone, - i've known this from as long as I started dancing, so maybe it IS mentioned in the beginner refresher lessons..(?)
As Chef pointed out, yes Follows can help to avoid collisions, but I think most of the responsibility is on the Leader's shoulders. Not only is the Leader leading direction, they're also not spinning as much, so for me it sort of stands to reason.
Is it the slotters or the rotators that cause the problem? Or is it having both in the same place?!!! :P
Last edited by Steven666; 6th-April-2009 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Me being a noob
Glad to hear you're not picking on me I rarely have the energy to respond properly if people do
Agree wholeheartedly - while obviously a large amount of the dance is determined by the leader, it's unfair IMO to beleive they have total awareness of every single thing that's happening across the dance floor for the time they are dancing. The most common form of highjacking I will do is mainly to avoid collisions.I have said it before but I will say it again. Followers can do a lot about their own positional precision that will take a lot of the burden off the leader.
The individual I was referring to however... well in order for me to "contribute" to the floor craft, I would need to actually be doing the leading... without moaning () they have actually refused to apologise when causing accidents and have refused to make any kind of adaptation despite comments about floor craft over the years. (there's one in every venue!)
That's an interesting point - when the question was raised about floorcraft being taught, I immediately interpreted that as "taught to the leads", when as you say, there's a lot of potenital for beenfit by teaching the followers.This is a followers skill that has to be learnt and yes I think it should be taught more in classes, especially the reasons why it is needed.
Rural??? Glasgow???I have noticed that out in the rural areas,
rofl!Looked like they were relying on colliding with us to prevent them falling over.
Needless to say, wasn't being serious thereDon't bother with the Ronde - you will just end up with a wet dance floor and a pile of broken glass.
I am inspired by this thread to change something in what I do to see if I can make some small difference.
Floorcraft in general is quite good in my experience and the vast majority of people are polite. But a small minority could set an unpleasant tone. If as many as 10% of dancers on a busy floor were inconsiderate it would be a like nightmare on the dodgems. The real figure must therefore be well below 10%.
I used to taxi a lot but now just at one venue. This means I am well placed to influence beginners early on at that venue. The only explicit floorcraft comment I ever normally make is about putting your arms out. I really like it when ladies use their spare hand and arm well (ooer, scope for innuendo) and have often said they can always put their arm straight up rather than out if the floor is crowded. The only proviso being to watch out for very tall people with big nostrils.
The change to three moves from four in the beginners class is giving me more time and I will now add floorcraft/politeness comments to my already informed suave patter
Not everyone likes a pledge as I recall . However, lots of taxi dancers are on the forum and if some of us, at our own discretion, are able to incorporate some gentle guidance at the formative stages then a small problem should get even smaller as time goes by and social dancing will be even better. Well that's my theory.
Its neither, none of them.....its any dancer who is unaware of who or what is around them, who move into a space or place or person occupied or about to be occupied by another dancer.
It is rarely deliberate, mostly unintentional, but occasionally recklessness is the cause.
I have also heard that it is the leaders responsibility to make sure that the follower doesn't collide with anyone. I think this is an unrealistic oversimplification because it lets followers off the hook in terms of also playing theri part in their own safety. It also assumes that the leader can always mitigate collisions that are caused by nearby dancers suddenly barreling into where they are. This is simply unrealistic. A good leader can try to rescue a situation, avert a potential problem, BUT he cannot guarantee it.
Follows (and leader for that matter) can help to avoid being the cause of a collision in the following ways.
Your rock step - make it smaller. It really doesn't need to be that large anyway. Remember that however much you move your centre of mass backwards you have to move ir forwards again before you can start dancing.
Make your arms shorter and dance with smaller steps - Dancing with your arms extended straight means that you have to cover much more distance between you and your partner and that just makes you look like you are madly dashing from one place to another. Dancing with shorter arms will mean that you have more time for the fiddly bit of the move in the middle, which will look neater and less rushed, because you are not using up your dance time in rushing about.
Go where he leads you - Sometimes your leader is moving you somewhere for your own safety. This doesn't mean that if your own eyes show you that danger is ahead that you should go anyway. Remember that his ability to lead you ends at his fingertips. If you have noodle arms, soft core muscles, or a wilful desire to do your own thing regardless then he cannot even start to try to keep you out of danger.
Simple returns are done on the spot - When a simple return is done then your feet should land back where they started. A simple return does not involve moving three paces to your left. Your leader can see what is behind you and on either side of you - if he wanted you to go there he would have lead you. Until you master this you are still a beginner (it is listed as a thing not to do on the Ceroc beginner DVD) irrespective of the number of years you have been doing it (wrong).
Spinning on the spot - If you cannot spin on the spot without travelling then get someone (preferrably the teacher) to teach you and then practice at home until you can. If you cannot do it on your own at home then you have no chance of doing it at a venue when being led by an over energetic leader. An inability to spin well leads onto many other problems - because you have such a large danger area around you your get too far away from your leader before spinning and then end up a full stretch to reconnect to your partner - even before you try to rockstep. If you are being led into a return and you are too far away from your partner then there is no way your leader can get his hand over your head and you will have to bend in the middle to complete the turn - that rarely works.
It is my feeling that the majority of the floorcraft issues arise from a lack of basic dance technique. There is no point telling people that they should have better floorcraft until you teach them the basic skills required to achieve that. There may be isolated places where this happens but until it is universal throught Ceroc and the wider MJ world then nothing will be achieved.
Just like a motorway having hundreds of skilled and disciplined drivers it only need one unskilled or undisciplined driver to cause carnage.
Hijacking to avoid collisions is about the only form of Hijacking that I love. I do my best but I cannot have eyes everywhere and my follower can see things that I cannot. Even simple things like leading a travelling return can be fraught with danger when people move into the space behind me inbetween having a look there before leading the move and the woman travelling there. As I turn I can see the situation has changed and cut of the move to bring the follower into close hold. This often feels abrupt, but not as abrupt as a collision.
There are names for people like that - I just can't use any of them here.
You must’ve known that I am going to disagree with this! Aberdeen is the only place where I’ve actually been knocked to the floor in the middle of a dance, and neither the guy who thrust me backwards into another dancer, nor the dancer with their foot stuck out which tripped me up seemed to care or apologise In fact, the guy I was dancing with just expected me to continue as if nothing had happened – I didn’t, I was really upset, embarrassed and a bit bruised and hobbled off the dancefloor
I’m afraid that selfishness is not the preserve of big cities – it’s just more concentrated due to there being more people.
Was thinking about his and about to post something similar myself.
Of course there is also the generally selfish attitude of some people, in their refusal not only to apologise, but also to move out of other people’s way. Some dancers seem to think that whatever space there is belongs to them, and that everyone else should get out of their way.
As a follow, there is an added complication. I always try my best to not only “dance tidy” as Chef suggests, but also keep an eye out for what is going on around me and do my best to avoid collisions and also to warn the lead if there is something going on behind him that he obviously can’t see. But it doesn’t always work – some leads clearly don’t like my not following the lead exactly, despite the fact that it is for evasive reasons (they seem totally unaware of the impending collision that I’ve just averted), and some give a lead so strong that it can become difficult to alter things slightly to avoid the collision. I also try and shorten the step back and try and dance in a bit closer in crowded conditions, but some leads are clearly uncomfortable with this too. It’s as though they’ve learnt a move with certain proportions, and are completely incapable of altering the move to fit the dancing conditions.
As for the dreaded heel in someone’s foot situation, having been the victim of this on numerous occasions, I've learnt that a follow can, with some self awareness, mitigate this when it does happen. Quite simply, putting your weight down on your heel as you step back first onto the toe and then through the feel does not feel the same when you’re on the solid floor as when you are about to sink into someone’s foot! I accidentally did this on Saturday night, felt the difference and was able to pull my weight forward quickly before doing too much damage (I hope so anyway – the person I think I got seemed to carry on dancing afterwards and wasn’t hopping up and down holding one foot as I’ve been known to do - and yes, I did apologise). All it takes is a little self awareness and some control
I'd have to disagree; the vast majority of problems I see are caused by thoughtlessness or selfishness rather than poor technique.
But unlike a motorway, dancers don't have to be going at 70mph. Unskilled dancers may cause a few bumps and bruises, but they are generally both easy to avoid, and not actually moving fast enough to cause serious damage.Just like a motorway having hundreds of skilled and disciplined drivers it only need one unskilled or undisciplined driver to cause carnage.
The dancers who scare me are the ones who (metaphorically) are driving at 140mph on the wrong side of the road, because they think they're "good enough to get away with it"
I have no problems with us holding differing veiws on this. Perhaps our differeing views are based on our different experiences. I have seen inexperienced dancers causing floorcraft issues as they struggle with leading and following basic moves. I can understand that and I don't think it is borne out of thoughtlessness or selfishness. I have danced at places like Utopia and Southport next to what I would regard as very able dancers and although it can look frantic I feel safe because it is clear what dance space they are using, I don't go into it and they don't come out of it. What scares the life out of me is the people that are just good enough to do fast complex moves but are not skilled enough to control them. It is scary for me to be near them because I feel in constant danger but they have to learn somewhere - I just wish it was somewhere not near me. Could it be that they tried something ambitious on the dance floor and came unstuck or was it a move chosen to scare people around them? I don't have enough evidence to decide. Having said that there are some people who are remarkably persistant when doing something that always goes wrong when a little bit of standing back and thinking it through would be more effective.
People who are moving fast enough, without contol, on the dance floor to do serious damage quickly create a hole for themselves as surrounding dancers move out range out of sheer self preservation. Even the ones that are going to inflict mere "cuts and briuses" (and lets be fair it is mostly the followers that are in the firing line) get given a wide berth. There have been many times where I have been unable to move myself and partner to somewhere safe and have chosen to leave the dance floor mid track just to be able live to dance another day.
Yup! They scare me too. You can ban agressive drunks from pubs. You can ban bad drivers from roads. Action, even temporary, in my experience at least, is rarely taken against reckless dancers.
Apart from leaving the floor, the only tactic I have found that works at short notice is to place myself between my partner and them and brace for impact. Being the size I am I don't usually suffer that much, apart from a bit of kicking around the ankles, but would much rather take the hit than my follower.
To do the driving analogy to death it is the ones that think they are good enough to get away with it, but are not, are the dangerous ones in most areas of life. How do they know if they are good enough though if they don't try?
The motorway thing works because the people on it have been trained and demonstrated that they have the skills for control of the vehicle. There is lane discipline, checking for a space and signalling before changing lanes. There is also a mechanism for removing people from roads who demonstrate a lack of skill or a disregard for other road users (not very effective though if you see the number of banned drivers who are arrested multiple times).
Good and appropriate training cannot convert the reckelss but it can inform and equip the majority.
In Stevenage we talk about floorcraft everytime I take the review lesson hence a lot of new dancers are demonstrating good floorcraft.
However at some venues I have stopped dancing and walked off the floor with my partner because some ill mannered, discordinated oaf has walked into our dancing space and completley taken our space. Floor craft is basically bad manners and rudeness. All it takes is a bit of consideration for fellow dancers. Accidents will happen and I instruct my newbies to always apolagise, even if they have been bumped by someone else.
Some dancers have no idea about floorcraft and will not apolagise if they are in the wrong, basic bad manners in the case of some people.
There is a world of difference between an enthusiastic beginner and an ignorant experienced dancer, who refuses to apolagise when a collision occurs.
DTS XXX XXX
Last edited by dave the scaffolder; 6th-April-2009 at 03:14 PM.
Agree, so maybe if we get to 1) in their formative stages we can stop them becoming 2). I do like the idea of this being part of the regular class, maybe not every week, just to have a slot that covers typical floorcraft challenges and offers tips for addressing them.
From the responses we're getting even a simple mention that you might need to be considerate of others would seem to be an improvement.
Point taken and that wasn't my intention. Hammersmith was the catalyst for the post but I'd been thinking of writing one anyway after about 5 different people made scathing comments about Ceroc Central's St Neots Freestyle the Friday before last (referred to in martingold's post). I've suffered from the numpties at weekenders and across the country too so agree it's not something that it limited to one venue.
I know you do my scaffolding friend. Maybe a good lesson for all venues. Catch them while they are still being bottle fed...........
Common courtesy should be a part of everyone's upbringing, but sadly it is not. I guess that we need the teachers to try and compensate for this when people start dancing. However, like many have said the arrogant plonkers will no doubt still consider that such trivialities are for others so maybe we need to speak up to venue organisers if we see a particular menace and have them disciplined. I'm always up for a bit of that
Agent 000
Licensed to Dance
“No one is too big to be courteous, but some are too little"
Am really struggling to think of a time when I've heard a teacher mention anything in a class about floorcraft (with the exception of Keith from Revolution Dance at a dips and drops workshop). It is a constant issue at some venues I dance at, but I have to say that I have found the bigger venues better for floorcraft - possibly because of the level of experience of the dancers? One of the smaller ones I sometimes visit regularly has people wandering slowly across the floor, looking confused, somehow wondering how they got there - and then looking annoyed at dancers when a couple comes anywhere near!
I REALLY think floorcraft needs more attention from teachers, as anyone who has suffered an injury from poor floorcraft will probably agree, and will definitely be taking it up more when I'm taxi-ing.
The reason we are all struggling with it is because its not mentioned at any classes run by Ceroc and most people start this way. Floorcraft comes mainly from word of mouth, ie: somebody moaning about somebody else. In the early days, i used to think it was my fault if i got hurled into somebody whilst dancing and would apologise immediately but its not my fault as a follow, its the leads fault. And before i get shot down in flames, yes i know sometimes it nobodys fault or its the other persons leads fault but generally be it my lead of the other persons lead, they are the ones that should be aware of whats going on. This is where the problem lies.
I could name a few dancers (experienced) who has the attitude of, its my space keep out of it. I avoid dancing with them for this reason as its me who gets knocked about while the leads are making the stand.
It does not get taught and should be although even if it was, there are still going to be dancers out there who really dont give a toss.
Judging from this thread, I think there is a consensus that not enough is done to promote good floorcraft.
Perhaps we should be asking how the situation can be improved. A few thoughts (I'm doing this from a leaders' perspective):
What is involved in good floorcraft?
- Basic awareness - The easy bit. Actually knowing that floorcraft is an issue is the first part, and dancing in a considerate fashion (no huge moves if the floor is crowded, no aerials etc etc)
- Advanced awareness - Keeping track of those around you, where they are, what they're doing, where they're travelling, and the kind of things they're likely to get up to. All useful knowledge when you're planning what to do, where to go and where to send your partner.
- Physical skills - How to send your partner exactly where you want - not just to the same spot each time, or some random adhoc place on the floor. How to smoothly change plans to avoid collisions. Etc
- Manners. Apologising if there's been a collision. No matter who's fault it was.
And how should it be taught? If a respected teacher offered workshops on floorcraft, would anyone go? Obviously some of it can be done at a class level, but if a teacher labours it too much, they stand the risk of losing people's attention - but at the same time, I think it has to start at a class level - if everyone was introduced to the basics of it at a very early stage, I believe the situation today would be better. I don't believe that most of the people with bad floorcraft simply don't care - I think it's just a lack of awareness, and that's something that can usually be changed.
Good points
I share the belief that all except the most arrogant could be persuaded to change if they are made aware of the problems that poor floorcraft causes for all. I agree with Stray that even a dance god would struggle to fill a class focussed on floorcraft so it needs to be included in normal classes.
I like the way it was done locally (I don't go to classes too often now so can't say for definite that it still happens). Every few weeks or so we'd put something into the beginner lesson to cover the basics of dancing with others sometimes at the expense of one of the moves. This would embrace connection stuff, floorcraft, the importance of spinning on the spot and a variety of other things that we'd cycle through (bit hazy now - haven't been at a beginner class for over a year). We'd only spend 5-10 minutes on it but it came up regularly enough to get the message through.
Agent 000
Licensed to Dance
As a regular at St. Neots freestyles I have noted that the dancers are a very varied bunch. Nearly every time I meet some ladies on their first MJ dance ever. Often they have never partner danced before. There are ladies from at least 4 different Ceroc franchises. It would not surprise me if there were attendees from 8. There are usually dancers from three other local MJ organisations, at least two of which have different styles and playlists.
I have not had cause to complain about the floorcraft there, just that it gets too busy at the peak time. However, if there is a problem I wonder if it is due to the unfamiliarity of some of the dancers there, not knowing what level those surrounding are, and perhaps the dance equivalent of accents, where others have been taught in different environments, and communication is not as good as it could be.
Obviously the same factors are at work at Hammersmith.
I suspect more problems are caused by rotators than by slotters.
Slotted dancing requires a precise lead and some basic following technique.
An imprecise lead or poor following will tend to result in rotational ceroc.
Somebody who can lead his partner in one specific direction (slot) can probably lead his partner in any particular specific direction, and provided he is aware of his neighbouring dancers he can avoid collisions.
If a leader cannot control his partner enough to keep her on one line, how can he keep her from collision?
I allow the possibility of a leader deliberately choosing to lead a rotational dance, but if he cannot lead a slotted dance, how can he be sure he is leading a rotational dance?
I say learn to lead a slotted dance, then learn to rotate the slot.
Also, learn to lead so you finish where you started (or where your partner started for a move that swaps places). If you can finish a move at a particular point (where you started) then you can travel that move when you want to (and have the space). If you travel without intending to, how can you control your position or avoid collision?
I think DTS' comments on floorcraft go down very well at Stevenage. I have barely had a bump or a scrape there.
Far be it from me to suggest that I am a level-headed sensible member of the community (both muggle and dance) but I still think it is common courtesy to watch where you are going, dance or otherwise!!! If I bumped into someone in the street I'd apologise straight away even if it wasn't my fault.
Good manners cost nothing and all that?
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