Are class nights doing enough to teach floorcraft?

[Agente Secreto]

Inspired by a couple of posts recently.

It seems that floorcraft is something that is missing on several of the large popular venues. Not only that, but common courtesy and the ability to say sorry when there is a collision seem to have vanished too. Is there anything that we can do to help teachers and venue managers sort this out?

Learning to dance at SnowWhite's venues I have been weaned on proper floorcraft and I struggle to have fun where numpty dancers that don't understand such concepts go to dance (apparently from reading previous threads you can always be sure of getting these idiots in great numbers at Hammersmith). I'm sure that SnowWhite is not alone in trying to grow a generation of courteous dancers but people with floorcraft skills do seem to be in short supply.

Are class nights doing enough to teach people to dance with consideration for their own partner and those around them???

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

[Sporty Jeff]

Just started going to St Albans I usually dance at Letchworth and Luton and still do, great lessons and some excellant dancers at St Albans but some people there are so rude. No floor craft, dirty looks and no apologies when kicked or knocked. What does it cost to say sorry? I do it automatically even when it is not my fault! I can not remember being told about floor craft but when I taxi I make a point of discussing it with the beginners. A friendly environment on the dance floor makes a venue for me. St Albans could be better.

[zimbabwean]

Inspired by a couple of posts recently.

It seems that floorcraft is something that is missing on several of the large popular venues. Not only that, but common courtesy and the ability to say sorry when there is a collision seem to have vanished too. Is there anything that we can do to help teachers and venue managers sort this out?

Learning to dance at SnowWhite's venues I have been weaned on proper floorcraft and I struggle to have fun where numpty dancers that don't understand such concepts go to dance (apparently from reading previous threads you can always be sure of getting these idiots in great numbers at Hammersmith). I'm sure that SnowWhite is not alone in trying to grow a generation of courteous dancers but people with floorcraft skills do seem to be in short supply.

Are class nights doing enough to teach people to dance with consideration for their own partner and those around them???

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

A very good thread lets see where this goes

[rubyred]

A friendly environment on the dance floor makes a venue for me.

Couldn't agree more with this sentiment.
When I started to learn MJ it was at a place called the Bowden Rooms in Altrincham in Manchester, now known as 'The Cinnamon Club'. There was a teacher there called George Moss, he still is teaching and runs his own thing now called 8Beat Jive Fusion. I remember George teaching floorcraft and I have to say that generally in and around Manchester the etiquette is that you should always look before leading a dip or a drop, turning a follower out and say sorry if you bump into anyone. Another good ambasador for floor craft was Keith Davies, who runs Revolution Jive also teaching floor craft. Both these guys are fabulous innovative teachers, and I recall them teaching 'blues dancing' before anyone else had cottoned on to the idea some 7 or 8 years ago in the North West.

[zimbabwean]

Couldn't agree more with this sentiment.
When I started to learn MJ it was at a place called the Bowden Rooms in Altrincham in Manchester, now known as 'The Cinnamon Club'. There was a teacher there called George Moss, he still is teaching and runs his own thing now called 8Beat Jive Fusion. I remember George teaching floorcraft and I have to say that generally in and around Manchester the etiquette is that you should always look before leading a dip or a drop, turning a follower out and say sorry if you bump into anyone. Another good ambasador for floor craft was Keith Davies, who runs Revolution Jive also teaching floor craft. Both these guys are fabulous innovative teachers, and I recall them teaching 'blues dancing' before anyone else had cottoned on to the idea some 7 or 8 years ago in the North West.

I had the pleasure of dancing at the Bowden rooms and the Cheshire Lounge (Keith's Monday venue) two weeks ago and had 3 really fantastic, Freindly nights . Bowden rooms on the tuesday was really busy and the etiquette that was reflected on the dance floor was brilliant,
I am lucky enought to get up there 2/3 times a year for work and look forward to those venues.

Hopefully Ruby you will be around next time i'm up there so we can have a dance or three

[rubyred]

I had the pleasure of dancing at the Bowden rooms and the Cheshire Lounge (Keith's Monday venue) two weeks ago and had 3 really fantastic, Freindly nights . Bowden rooms on the tuesday was really busy and the etiquette that was reflected on the dance floor was brilliant,
I am lucky enought to get up there 2/3 times a year for work and look forward to those venues.

Hopefully Ruby you will be around next time i'm up there so we can have a dance or three

Hi gorgeous really sorry I missed you recently,please let me know when you are coming up North again.

[under par]

There is no excuse for not being courteous if you have a collision.
An apology , a recognition that there was indeed some contact is all that is needed.

As for floorcraft in general.

I recall when I was learning, in beginner mode, being totally committed to remembering what move to do next.

That was my main and only concern.

When told by Mrs Par at that time that I was not dancing to the music, I got annoyed as I was still concentrating so hard on what move to do next.. the concept of what the music was doing was beyond my comprehension.

I see poor floorcraft today and there are 2 types IMHO.

1. the beginner who lacks the neccesary skills, who is unaware of his surroundings , probably still struggling internally with all problems I had as a beginner... in some respects these people have my sympathy and are very much less annoying than ... type 2.

2. the more knowledgble dancer who dances in busy venues in bigger spaces than are available, sometimes using bigger moves/drops and dips than the dancefloor can manage. These people should know better and should be more considerate. Maybe its time for organisers to police this behaviour and hand out a few banning orders for disorderly dancing.


At most venues I mostly find myself dancing along one edge of the dance floor, this means there is less for me to worry about as far as collisions are concerned.
Though you do have to cope with people with drinks in their hands walking around the edge, drifting onto or across dancefloor.

[Twirly]

Good thread

Yes, more should be taught about floorcraft, and not just in beginners. Dancers should be reminded all the time about common courtesy since they don't seem able to remember for themselves. And not just when they're dancing either - blues room last night at Hammersmith last night was classic with quite a few people (and presumably more experienced dancers by virtue of the room) cutting across the middle of the floor in the middle of a track, making no effort to avoid the dancers

[Gadget]

Floorcraft is something I only see regularly taught when there is a move in the routine that could be potentially dangerous OR if it's really busy the teacher will do a hill-street blues "let's be careful out there."

Other than that, common courtesy and a little bit less self-absorption / selfishness on the dance floor are all that is required. My theory is that places & jobs where you have to look after numero uno before everyone else in order to be successful (eg London) would be more prone to have higher levels of 'selfish' people than more relaxed and open places that are further from hubs of industry. But it's only a theory.

It also depends on the regular dancers and how they conduct themselves on the dance floor. I'm fairly confident that the Aberdeen dancers have a good spacial awareness - I keep terrorising them and crossing the floor in various "random" directions; keeps them on their toes.

[Beowulf]

hill-street blues "let's be careful out there."

You're showing your age now oh great Gadgetry one

[martingold]

i have been to several venues that are not the normal ceroc metro ones that i attend
the main problem as i see it is the lack of friendliness in these venues such as hammersmith and st neots at both these venues the floorcraft was apalling in hammersmith people told me it wasnt very busy and gets worse well if it could get worse i am completely supprised i hated it due to the general lack of manners
st neots i was told oh well its really busy which is why you keep being bumped well imho it was no where near as busy as other venues where floorcraft works well because of the friendliness such as cheshunt were if someone does bump you then you almost always get a smile and apolagy
yes you will get the odd dancer who doesnt but that sadly is a reflection on people in general

i dont think floorcraft should need teaching
perhaps people should be taught manners and common sense long before they are old enough to attend a dance class

[straycat]

i dont think floorcraft should need teaching

I agree that it shouldn't, but unfortunately, I believe it does, along with (as AS suggests), some dancefloor etiquette for dealing with collisions when they do happen.

I have been at workshops where the teachers have decided to give us some impromptu floorcraft training - which consisted of herding the entire class into an area of the room roughly the size of a postage stamp, then putting on something insanely fast. I'm not 100% sure how effective this was, but it was an interesting exercise.

I'm also uncertain as to how you'd address the issue of people who walk straight into you when they're walking across the dancefloor carrying drinks (last time we went to Twyford, I lost count of the number of people who did this - unbelievable ) - anyone who has the lack of awareness to do that repeatedly will probably ignore it if they're simply told not to. Maybe throw out persistent offenders?

[David Franklin]

Are class nights doing enough to teach people to dance with consideration for their own partner and those around them???

If, as your poll implies, the most we can hope for is "floorcraft regularly mentioned" (not taught or anything you understand, just mentioned), then no, they're not doing enough...

[Princess Fi]

I must have been really lucky in my dancing life in that with the exception of one dancer (who I now regularly avoid due to floor craft related crimes - the concept of your follow being a bumper car not being one I agree with) I cannot think of any dancers who behave with the floor craft arrogance described here

This is probably largely due to the fact that in Glasgow we don't have such a problem with packed venues as some other areas in the country (a class night I went to at ISH kinda opened my eyes on this one). Either that or Franck's been slipping something into the water/subliminally teaching floor craft without me remembering it

Accidents will happen - provided they are followed by immediate apologies, then all's good I would imagine.

walking across the dancefloor carrying drinks

People do that????? Hmm.... I'm thinking a well timed ronde (sp?) would be called for

[kps]

There is no excuse for not being courteous if you have a collision.
An apology , a recognition that there was indeed some contact is all that is needed.


I see poor floorcraft today and there are 2 types IMHO.

1. the beginner who lacks the neccesary skills, who is unaware of his surroundings , probably still struggling internally with all problems I had as a beginner... in some respects these people have my sympathy and are very much less annoying than ... type 2.

2. the more knowledgble dancer who dances in busy venues in bigger spaces than are available, sometimes using bigger moves/drops and dips than the dancefloor can manage. These people should know better and should be more considerate. Maybe its time for organisers to police this behaviour and hand out a few banning orders for disorderly dancing.


At most venues I mostly find myself dancing along one edge of the dance floor, this means there is less for me to worry about as far as collisions are concerned.
Though you do have to cope with people with drinks in their hands walking around the edge, drifting onto or across dancefloor.

i dont think floorcraft should need teaching
perhaps people should be taught manners and common sense long before they are old enough to attend a dance class

Yeah I believe the lack of manners is a real growing problem, and they shouldn't have to be taught.

People do that????? Hmm.... I'm thinking a well timed ronde (sp?) would be called for

I like the idea...

[robd]

It seems that floorcraft is something that is missing on several of the large popular venues.

There's the critical word - popular. If a venue is very popular the number of attendees is likely to be such that at peak times the dancefloor is very crowded and collisions will occur. As others have said, an acknowledgment and an apology usually suffice. Occasionally there is more serious damage (usually ladies heel to top of somebody's foot) that merits stopping dancing to check on the injured parties condition. I am amazed sometimes that leaders collide with my follower and don't even appear to notice that they have done so much less appear apologetic.

Idiots doing inappropriate dips, drops and aerials on crowded floors has been covered lots in other threads. I think there is an onus on the organisers of an event to have a quiet word with people doing this.

I don't think it's fair to single out Hammersmith, it happens at lots of places including Utopia Twickenham and JA Southport Blues Room at peak times - both places where I would expect the majority of dancers to be reasonably experienced.

Whether a greater emphasis on teachers talking about it would help I do not know (it may be useful to deal with it practically by teaching some moves that can minimise floorcraft issues on a crowded floor?) Ultimately no-one ever believes they are the one driving badly when they get angry on the roads and I am sure the same myopia would extend to the dancefloor so the message would probably pass people by.

[Phil_dB]

I think at the end of the day it boils down to common sense, consideration & courtesy.

I can't remember any of the teachers at the venues I reguarly attend (all of the Surrey ones) ever mentioning floor craft (workshops haven't either), - but then I haven't found it to be a huge issue. (most of the venues I visit often become very busy). IME collisions aren't that frequent, and when they do happen most people I've come accross seem to have been taught manners, (you're always going to get exceptions).

I do pick my dancing spot carefully as I dance much better when I can relax into the dance as opposed to concentrate on avoiding other dancers, - if someone near me starts going bananas I will attempt to steer my partner & I well clear.

In the scheme of things, I have found MJ in general to be SOOOOOO friendly. Try comparing the floorcraft/manners at MJ with your local nightclub

[emmylou25]

Teachers at some venues I go to do mention floorcraft and watching out for your partner and others, but I find collisions are mostly due to people not taking any notice of this. Sometimes I start getting paranoid about the fact that it might be me causing the issues given I tend to be stood on quite a lot, but have now worked out that it tends to be when I'm dancing with a certain couple of people, and near by to certain leaders...

It doesn't really take a lot for a teacher to mention the dangers, even in some busy classes there's a need to mention it. And I always try and work it into any beginners sessions that i'm taxiing at. I think it's important for the ladies to be aware how wildly they might be spinning/how far they're stepping back, and the guys need to be thinking about where their partner is being led into. If you can get beginners thinking about it early on (once they've got over worrying about the moves) it's a lot easier than trying to change people who don't think it's an issue.

e.g at Cat's WCS workshop yesterday, we all had to practise dancing in a much smaller slot to show that it can be done and make people more aware of who's around.

It does really wind me up when a leader decides they want to put me into a drop on a busy dancefloor, then looks at me like I'm strange because I won't do what they say. I'm not doing it if my head's going to get kicked!

[Chef]

I have picked out Princess Fis' post not because I disagree with anything but because she talked about some things that I would like to comment on.

I must have been really lucky in my dancing life in that with the exception of one dancer (who I now regularly avoid due to floor craft related crimes - the concept of your follow being a bumper car not being one I agree with) I cannot think of any dancers who behave with the floor craft arrogance described here

Just as some people lack the skills to control their own floorcraft (and direct that of their partner) (see Under Pars' post above), some people seem to lack the ability to rescue their partner from an impending collision either as a result of their own actions or another dancer coming into the space they were going to occupy. Sometimes it is as gentle as bending the exit of a move so your partner goes somewhere that is currently safe. Some times it is a split second decision as to which is the lesser of two evils - letting a bump contact occur or sharply pulling your follower forward to prevent the bumping. Sometimes we leaders get it right and sometimes we get it wrong.

I have said it before but I will say it again. Followers can do a lot about their own positional precision that will take a lot of the burden off the leader. Collisions will become less likely so the leader will not have to rescue sitiuations so much. This is a followers skill that has to be learnt and yes I think it should be taught more in classes, especially the reasons why it is needed.

This is probably largely due to the fact that in Glasgow we don't have such a problem with packed venues as some other areas in the country (a class night I went to at ISH kinda opened my eyes on this one). Either that or Franck's been slipping something into the water/subliminally teaching floor craft without me remembering it

I have noticed that out in the rural areas, where there is much more dance space available, that floorcraft is poorer. The fact that few collisions occur is because there is just such a large amount of space to dance in. In places where space is more limited there appears to be less of an issue with collisions because the regulars have learnt that if they don't want to be kicked to hell each week then they have to learn to "dance tidy". There is a major problem when people from less crowded dance venues go into town at weekends (like Hammersmith for example) to crowded venues and they just can't cope with the change from loads of space to crowded venue.

Accidents will happen - provided they are followed by immediate apologies, then all's good I would imagine.

We have this culture of apologising even for things that are not our fault. It does help preserve the peace but can become wearing when you are dancing blues almost on the spot on the edge of the floor at a weekender and are being kicked to hell by the couple next to you, over and over again. On one occasion I saw a couple coming at me and my partner (again) and managed to side step them and then watched them fall to the floor as they fell off the edge of the dance floor. Looked like they were relying on colliding with us to prevent them falling over. They had way too much energy for a blues song anyway.

People do that????? Hmm.... I'm thinking a well timed ronde (sp?) would be called for

OH YES! (in my best Churchill dog acccent), it really does happen and is sometimes done by people who have been dancing many years. It is one of the things that makes me think that it doesn't matter how long people have been dancing - if you are still making beginner mistakes then you are still a beginner. Don't bother with the Ronde - you will just end up with a wet dance floor and a pile of broken glass. Ask the organiser to make a comment from the stage to stop this - they won't mind, after all they will probably be the one doing the clearing up otherwise.

[marcusj]

For me this is because the lead is concentrating so hard on what they are doing to the exclusion of other considerations, which as many others above have observed is very annoying and sometimes dangerous.

Look at great footballers, going to go out on a limb as an Arsenal man and say Dennis Bergkamp amd Cesc Fabregas, they look around them as the ball is on the way to them so they know where they are in relation to their surroundings and other players when they get the ball and can then work their magic.

Dancing should be the same, if I am leading anything that has length I always look over my shoulder and make sure the space is there before I do it, and I constantly have my peripheral vision switched on so I can either change the move or adjust the direction or size of the move depending on what’s happening with the people and space around me. The trouble is this requires a certain amount of ability and confidence to do this real time.

Having said all that I don’t like dancing like this as it makes me think too much and stops me getting in the zone, however it’s a necessity where it is particularly crowded and again as others have commented there are numpties being inconsiderate.

I have never heard a single teacher say a single thing about floorcraft, and I have been to classes all over !