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Thread: Can anybody become a good dancer?

  1. #41
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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Some can,
    Anyone can. I asked a very highly regarded music teacher who has been teaching music professionally for over twenty years, and this was her response. If you have something concrete (ie NOT personal opinion) that disproves what she said, I'd be intrigued to hear it...

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Anyone can. I asked a very highly regarded music teacher who has been teaching music professionally for over twenty years, and this was her response. If you have something concrete (ie NOT personal opinion) that disproves what she said, I'd be intrigued to hear it...
    But that's only a personal opinion too - of that one music teacher!

    It also only relates to the rhythm issue. Perhaps with careful tuition someone can be taught to clap in time, but that's a long way from moving your whole body in a stylish and coordinated way in time on a dancefloor, leading or following a partner confidently, interpreting the music by creating appropriate body movements....and all the other stuff that makes a good dancer.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Dancing is so much a "balance / rhythm / lead & follow / connection" thing that without all of these the 'whole' cannot be 'complete'. Trying to describe what makes a 'good' dancer is so hard, but the ones who make the dance feel 'complete' do it for me.

    I think the one part that is toughest to learn if it's not natural to you is the "balance" part...those that spin effortlessly... have oodles of it..I don't think I've ever seen a good spinner that dances badly. Having said that, there are those who may have the ability to dance well but who dance for themselves & not their partner

    I occasionally feel (& this is BLISS) that I am a good dancer. I try & hug that feeling to me when it seems I can catch no one's eye....its not so good to think "they're avoiding my eye therefore I must be a bad dancer"....

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Anyone can.
    No, anyone can't!


    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Flicts View Post
    But that's only a personal opinion too - of that one music teacher!
    Correct! For all I know your music teacher friend could live in a nut house and been given a "job" as music teacher to the crazies, but even if he's the number one authority on the subject, it's irrelevant. I mean, has he even been to ceroc Cheshunt? When he has he can tell me all about rhythmless Numpties, ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Flicts View Post
    Perhaps with careful tuition someone can be taught to clap in time, but that's a long way from moving your whole body in a stylish and coordinated way in time on a dancefloor, leading or following a partner confidently, interpreting the music by creating appropriate body movements....and all the other stuff that makes a good dancer.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    It's all relative...they may feel like John Travolta simply by being able to put one foot in front of the other and executing a half arsed arm jive.
    See, just goes to show I'll never be a good dancer. I never even realised that a man needed to use half his arse in an arm-jive

    My take - answer to the original question is definitely no, some people will lack what it takes to master the interaction with the music and the partner that turns simple physical contact into a dance. Everyone can get better with time but for some this investment will simply not move them far enough in a lifetime for them to be considered as good.

    As to the rhythmn thing, of course anyone can get rhythm! You just turn up the volume and put on lots of thump thump music. You can find that kind of inspiration at freestyles up and down the country. To such music, most people (I never deal in absolutes - there is always an exception to any rule) can be taught to find a beat and follow it and that is rhythm. The question is can they then combine this with moves and a partner and keep this rhythm.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Yes, anybody can become a good dancer simply because, as many have pointed out, 'good' is subjective. Dance MJ at a wedding in front of non-dancers and no matter how off time or uncordinated you are they will likely be impressed and think you are a 'good' dancer. If the question was, can anybody become a professional dancer then you'd see a more consistent set of answers I'd have thought.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Correct! For all I know your music teacher friend could live in a nut house and been given a "job" as music teacher to the crazies, but even if he's the number one authority on the subject, it's irrelevant. I mean, has he even been to ceroc Cheshunt? When he has he can tell me all about rhythmless Numpties, ok?
    Out of interest, have any of these rhythmless numpties spent time working on improving their sense of rhythm in the company of a capable teacher in a suitable learning environment?

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Out of interest, have any of these rhythmless numpties spent time working on improving their sense of rhythm in the company of a capable teacher in a suitable learning environment?
    Much as I'd love to answer that question, unfortunately, my crystal ball batteries are on re-charge.

    All I can tell you is that there are a fair number of dancers that I know have been going to modern jive lessons (beginners/intermediate/advanced/workshops, etc) for at least 5 years and they haven't got a scooby. They can't dance, they have no rhythm, style or technique and never will have.

    They are dancing no-hopers who will never have the dancing x factor and will only ever get charity dancers from people who are too kind to say no.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    See, just goes to show I'll never be a good dancer. I never even realised that a man needed to use half his arse in an arm-jive
    Amateur!

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post

    As to the rhythmn thing, of course anyone can get rhythm!
    But you can't teach someone to feel music and have a longstanding love for it.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    All I can tell you is that there are a fair number of dancers that I know have been going to modern jive lessons (beginners/intermediate/advanced/workshops, etc) for at least 5 years and they haven't got a scooby. They can't dance, they have no rhythm, style or technique and never will have.

    They are dancing no-hopers who will never have the dancing x factor and will only ever get charity dancers from people who are too kind to say no.
    Modern Jive lessons are hardly aimed at teaching technique or style, and I've only seen one MJ teacher point out to the class how to pick the beat. Ever. And I don't think he's done it since.

    Put those numpty dancers with a good teacher who will teach them what everyone else has assumed they can do already or don't need to be taught, and they'll improve. Granted they might never be great, but as has been pointed out many times before thats a relative thing.

    Personally, I think hard work and opportunity matter more than raw talent with these things, but raw talent is that little bit extra that help makes the really great people stand out above the herd of really good people who worked just as hard.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Flicts View Post
    But that's only a personal opinion too - of that one music teacher!
    Yes, it's an opinion. But an informed one, from a trained professional with twenty years experience. Personally, I think this counts for a great deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Flicts View Post
    It also only relates to the rhythm issue. Perhaps with careful tuition someone can be taught to clap in time, but that's a long way from moving your whole body in a stylish and coordinated way in time on a dancefloor, leading or following a partner confidently
    It is. But there was a time when I could do none of these things. Now I can do all of them. We all learn things a step at a time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    No, anyone can't!
    I've really taken a dislike of late to the word "can't". It can be a horrible, disempowering word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Correct! For all I know your music teacher friend could live in a nut house and been given a "job" as music teacher to the crazies, but even if he's the number one authority on the subject, it's irrelevant.
    Well - if your world is one where 'highly regarded' means 'lives in a nuthouse', and 'her' denotes a man, you have me at a loss. I thought you might be interested in what someone actually trained in this area (and hence qualified to talk about it) might have to say - if you're not, my bad. 'Tis entirely up to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I mean, has he even been to ceroc Cheshunt? When he has he can tell me all about rhythmless Numpties, ok?
    She's been dancing MJ (amongst other dances) for over 17 years. Safe to say, she's danced with people of all levels, and dance abilities.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I have been told by experienced teachers that the one thing they cannot teach is hearing a beat.

    If you can hear the beat I suppose how good a dancer becomes then depends on natural ability, dedication, good teaching and luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Flicts View Post
    But there are some folks who truly have absolutely no ability to 'understand' or perceive rhythm at all (although I think it's quite rare, like those who are truly tone deaf).

    There are even some people (this is very rare) who can not perceive music at all - to them music sounds the same as any random collection of tones. They can not hear any difference between the sound of music and the sound of random 'noise' made by instruments. Whatever part of our brain recognises and understands musical harmony is not working for these people.
    That's what I think Ant meant?

    I'm severely deaf, but not tone deaf. (AFAIA)

    Tone deaf people can hear normally, but they can't hold a tune.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Anyone can become a better dancer.

    Where do you draw the line and say "you are now good."? I think all you can do is compare yourself to someone else (or yourself at a previous time) If they are better than me, then they are "good dancers". If I am better than them, then I am a "good dancer".

    So: yes. Anyone can become a "good dancer". In one of two ways
    1) move the goalposts. Hang out with folk who can't dance as well as you can.
    2) move the mountain. Hang out with folk who are better than you until you equal their tallent, then find folk who are better than you and do it again.

    {Of course this relies on your own perception of how good you are and your perception of how good everyone else is... both will probably be bias and skewed.}

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I have been told by experienced teachers that the one thing they
    cannot teach is hearing a beat.
    Nope. It may take some folk longer, some may need to find the right teaching/learning for it to click, some may have to work out where the beat is by hearing another part of the music first. :shrug:

    Forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn, but I remember a similar conversation with our local Ceroc teacher: Lorna. She teaches kids of all ages and all mental abilities music. That's her job - she knows what she's talking about. She as also been teaching MJ for many years (she was the first person to teach me). Her opinion is that anyone can be taught rhythm and how to hear it.

    Some folk may have a lack of control of their own bodies which provides a barrier to moving it to a specific rhythm, but not an insurmountable one.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    It all comes down to connections in the brain. In a stroke victim those connections may die. With expert help and a lot of application another part of the brain can sometimes eventually learn the functions lost. All we know for sure is that many victims of brain & nerve damage never recover the lost functions within their lifetime.

    People are born with different brains, and some may have bits missing. It is my guess that people with the "dance" bits missing will not live long enough for dance to be learned by bits designed to do other things.

    In most people if one bit is missing they have extra in another area.

    I live with it, and adapt to it. If someone is willing to put together flat pack furniture for me, I am willing go dancing for them.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Yes, it's an opinion. But an informed one, from a trained professional with twenty years experience. Personally, I think this counts for a great deal.
    Originally Posted by Gadget
    She teaches kids of all ages and all mental abilities music. That's her job - she knows what she's talking about. She as also been teaching MJ for many years (she was the first person to teach me). Her opinion is that anyone can be taught rhythm and how to hear it.
    I personally have an open mind with these statements.

    I have also met many performing arts teachers including dance teachers and there is a body of teachers, generally from a more academic background that believe everything comes from inside the person and it is their job to release that persons ability by unlocking whatever is causing the problem internally. They are generally highly qualified with respecable performing arts degrees etc and good teachers. They seem to talk in terms of intense one on one teaching. Also I have seen or heard the results of some of this work and on an individual basis there may well have been a great deal of improvement. However, using the test of a reasonable person applying a reasonable standard, the ability level still seems very low to me.

    Equally I have spoken to just as highly qualified performing arts teachers but not neccessarily with an academic degree ie an ISDT qualified dance teacher, where the most basic problems exist in there field, they feel equally as strongly that if the problem exists it cannot be resolved. So regarding the hearing of a beat it cannot be be taught.

    I therefore wonder if the teachers that talk about ablility coming from within, in order to overcome the basic problem they bypassing the core problem. So instead of hearing the beat a pupil is taught on a track by track basis the beat interval for instance and there internal body clocks are programmed accordingly (this is just my example).

    Based upon my personal observations I would say where the test of a reasonable person applying a reasonable level of ability as the criteria then not every body can be become a good dancer where basic issues of ability exist, especially hearing a beat.

    However on an individual basis a person may start from a zero base and reach a personal level of attainment aceptable to them so they may then consider themselves good dancers in comparison to their own ability level. But would a reasonable person using the reason level of ability test consider them good dancers in absolute terms, I don't think so. Should this reduce in anyway their personal achievement, definitely not.

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    Cool Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Don't get me started. I'm filling up just thinking about poor Mary Ingles going blind.
    With the workboots and cotton bonnet combination they all had going on, losing your sight back then was really a blessing in disguise

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    That's what I think Ant meant?

    I'm severely deaf, but not tone deaf. (AFAIA)

    Tone deaf people can hear normally, but they can't hold a tune.
    Yes. Tone deafness is not a problem with actual hearing.

    People who are truly tone deaf can hear fine, but they are completely unable to distinguish differences in pitch. They can hear a high note and a low note, but they can't tell the difference.

    It's similar to colour blindness, where a minority of people can't distinguish certain colours in the same way that most of us can. But their sight is fine in other ways.

    They are just minor differences in some people's brain set-up.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Flicts View Post
    Yes. Tone deafness is not a problem with actual hearing.

    People who are truly tone deaf can hear fine, but they are completely unable to distinguish differences in pitch. They can hear a high note and a low note, but they can't tell the difference.

    It's similar to colour blindness, where a minority of people can't distinguish certain colours in the same way that most of us can. But their sight is fine in other ways.

    They are just minor differences in some people's brain set-up.
    That's very interesting.

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    Re: Can anybody become a good dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    If they are able to repeatedly hop on the off beat, then they have rhythm
    A broken clock is right twice a day, but I wouldn't want to organise my life by it.

    For me the answer is no - not everyone can be a good dancer. For one thing some people do not want to be. I have no desire to be a great footballer. I do not have that passion in my life. You could send me away to dozens of intensive training events with the best professional coaches, but the simple fact of the matter is, I don't want to achieve that goal, so I will never acheive it. (I appreciate that I've just let down tons of scouts with this paragraph so I apologise for that :roll eyes:

    The "good" thing is really the crux here as everyone's said. And I think that when people generally describe a dancer as "good" they mean "I enjoy dancing with them". These are not mutually inclusive terms. There are dancer I know who are "compentent". They lead the moves fine, they a really nice people, etc etc. They don't have the sense of style, flair technical ability and creativity that I would say makes a dancer "good". But because of the other stuff, I like dancing with them.

    So when the visitors to our venue ask me "who here is good?" I'll interpret that as "who will I enjoy dancing with?" (Without wanting to sound putridly sweet) I would tend to respond with "x y and z are lovely dancers." Could be that they are "good", could be that they are just fun to dance with, but either way, the experience of dancing with them is positive enough for me to rate them in that category.

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