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Thread: Lest we forget

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    Lest we forget

    This is a man worth listening to. He's 93 and has cancer. Considering his background, though, 93 is a good age to be and the cancer is not much of a surprise.
    His name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi and in during the war in the 1940s, whilst visiting another city on a business trip, he was stepping off a tram when a nuclear weapon exploded 3km away from him - it destroyed his ear drums and burnt a large part of his body. The next day he travelled home, only to have another nuclear bomb explode 3km from him a few days later. Yes, hes certainly lucky, but also a witness to the most inhuman acts ever carried out. How many can say "I was there" when hundreds of thousands have died round you?

    Unsurprisingly Tsutomu-san is an active protestor and would like a total ban on all nuclear weapons.

    We should listen to this man.
    Last edited by Dreadful Scathe; 26th-March-2009 at 04:30 PM.

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    This is a man worth listening to. He's 93 and has cancer. Considering his background, though, 93 is a good age to be and the cancer is not much of a surprise.
    His name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi and in during the war in the 1940s, whilst visiting another city on a business trip, he was stepping off a tram when a nuclear weapon exploded 3km away from him - it destroyed his ear drums and burnt a large part of his body. The next day he travelled home, only to have another nuclear bomb explode 3km from him a few days later. Yes, hes certainly lucky, but also a witness to the most inhuman acts ever carried out. How many can say "I was there" when hundreds of thousands have died round you?

    Unsurprisingly Tsutomu-san is an active protestor and would like a total ban on all nuclear weapons.

    We should listen to this man.
    DS - the 20th Century is peppered with inhuman acts so I'm not sure I agree with you that these are the most inhuman acts ever carried out.

    As part of military training I did a short project on the options for defeating Japan, and the casualty estimates for direct invasion of the Japanese home islands were up to 2 orders of magnitude larger than the casualties (direct and indirect) from the use of the nukes. In the context of that time I can understand the official reasons why they were used being based on them being the lesser of the evils available to the leadership of the day. Also, the US firebomb attacks on Japanese cities (and our combined efforts over Germany) killed far more people than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined, just obviously at far greater levels of cost to deploy. And since WW2 we've seen inhuman treatment in local conflicts on a huge scale.

    I'm not an apologist for nuclear weapons, although at times in the past I've been part of the infrastrucure that would have seen them deployed on RAF aircraft. I actually disagree with our need for an independent nuclear deterrent but I doubt that a total ban on nukes is an achievable position. I wish it were, like all of us I'd rather that the money was spent on something positive.

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    DS - the 20th Century is peppered with inhuman acts so I'm not sure I agree with you that these are the most inhuman acts ever carried out.
    I certainly see what you are saying, but I think creating a single weapon to obliterate all living things within as big a radius as they could manage at the time IS the most inhuman thing we have ever invented and the act of using this is the most inhuman act. I also think this is very very different to humans fighting and killing each other - we've done THAT since we first picked up sticks. Also, bear in mind that technology has moved on since then and the radius and power of a nuclear weapon explosion is now a "bit" bigger.

    According to here a modern nuclear weapon would have "70 times the power of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima" - 140,000 died as a result of the Hiroshima bomb - how many would die if ONE bomb landed in the middle of europe - 5 million ? more ?

    Perhaps we are getting better - according to that same site above :

    "Globally there are now 23,000 nuclear warheads.(Updated as of February 2009) This is a decrease from the global high of 70,000 nuclear warheads in 1986. "

    Big improvement. Combined, assuming each is 1 megaton, and assuming there would be a mere 7 times the deaths of the Hiroshima bomb, they would only be enough to kill 22 and a half billion people. Of course that may be a problem

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Apart from needless loss of human life, children in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still being born deformed.

    The soil and sea is poluted. A huge hole in the ozone layer, etc.,


    It is the same for Chernobyl, (1986) which was not at war.


    The UK government, despite Sellafield A.K.A Windscale, won't listen to Greenpeace. They are listening to the scientist Tom King who advocates nuclear energy as the " way forward" . Hence plans to build new reactors.

    It seems that the Labour Govt, (on coming to power in the 1990's) wanted to rid the UK of nuclear reactors, but this Tom King persuded them not to. Marched out a few statistics probably - he is a 'mad scientist' for sure.
    Last edited by Astro; 27th-March-2009 at 01:12 PM.

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Apart from needless loss of human life, children in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still being born deformed.
    Is there evidence this is due to the bombs?

    The soil and sea is poluted. A huge hole in the ozone layer, etc.,
    How much of that is due to the atomic bombs - if any ?

    It is the same for Chernobyl, (1986) which was not at war.
    No, the town of Chernobyl was not at war, the disaster was a fiasco caused by the Soviet Union building on the cheap, bad staffing and organisation problems.

    The UK government, despite Sellafield A.K.A Windscale, won't listen to Greenpeace. They are listening to the scientist Tom King who advocates nuclear energy as the " way forward" . Hence plans to build new reactors.
    But what is better for creating our ever growing need for power than nuclear? what do you suggest?

    also, using what we know of nuclear power for good is far removed from using nuclear power purely to kill.

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Apart from needless loss of human life, children in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still being born deformed.
    From the Japan Radiation Research Society Journal of Radiation Research:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.journalarchive.jst.go.jp/jnlpdf.php?cdjournal=jrr1960&cdvol=16&noissue=SUPP LEMENT&startpage=75&lang=en&from=jnlabstract
    At present, it is tentatively concluded that there is no statistically significant difference in the frequency of chromosome anomalies among children of A-bomb survivors compared either with children of non-exposed parents, or with a human neonatal population. This does not necessarily imply that there are no genetic effects ascribable to A-bomb exposure, but rather that such effects, if present, so far have not been detectable.
    I admit I was somewhat surprised as well.
    Last edited by David Franklin; 27th-March-2009 at 02:45 PM.

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Max Hastings' book Nemesis is very interesting (not only) on this question of the justification for the use of the Bombs.

    Amongst other things, he is quite clear that the War against Japan was won by the US Pacific Fleet. The Air Force had little to do with it; Burma was largely a sop to the Brits and the Philippines were to stop MacArthur griping and bitching about how to win the war. Hastings asserts plausibly that these two actions were entirely irrelevant to the main thrust of the Navy through the central Pacific and toward the Home Islands. (Note that as far as the US is concerned, the Marines are part of the Navy - so it's the ships and ground forces of the Navy we are talking about.)

    Until very late on, even the Air Force was irrelevant, since they could not reach Japan until the Fleet secured airfields within operational range - Okinawa? Or was it Iwo Jima?

    One element in the decision to drop the bombs was, apparently, the Air Force's feeling that it wanted to get 'in on the act' in a far larger way than it had been able to up to that point.

    It's hard not to disapprove of inter-service rivalry as a justification for such a move.

    MacArthur was planning to invade Japan (one wonders whether it would have been with the ineptness of his Philippines campaign or with the masterstroke of his Korean strategy some years afterward) and predicted losses were huge.

    But the main criticism of the use of nuclear weapons is this. For some time the US was aware that it could be possible to obtain 'total surrender' from Japan providing the Emperor was allowed to remain on the throne and immune from prosecution. The bombs were 'supposed' to be part of the effort to obtain total surrender without a land invasion. Japan did indeed surrender after the bombs - but it kept its emperor, and he was not prosecuted. So - um - cui bono?

    Not to mention the effect that Stalin's invasion of Manchuria had on American deadlines...

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    ... One element in the decision to drop the bombs was, apparently, the Air Force's feeling that it wanted to get 'in on the act' in a far larger way than it had been able to up to that point.

    It's hard not to disapprove of inter-service rivalry as a justification for such a move...
    I read a report which, if true, reinforces that view. Allegedly the biggest bombing raid of the war was on the last day of the war, and was followed very shortly afterwards by a leaflet drop telling them the war was over.

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    But what is better for creating our ever growing need for power than nuclear? what do you suggest?
    Wind machines, wave machines, hydro electric power, solar power. Admittedly there is not much of this in the UK, relatively speaking. There was a wind farm in the sea at Skegness.

    These power sources are becoming popular now, but they could have been popular 30 years ago if the governments had committed to them.
    also, using what we know of nuclear power for good is far removed from using nuclear power purely to kill.
    The problems with nuclear reactors are

    1. What to do with the radioactive waste. It used to be flushed into the sea. That's why nuclear power plants are always built on the coast in the UK.

    I don't think they are allowed to do this anymore, as the sea life was dying. (hope not!)

    2. Human error regarding leaks. (Homar Simpson!, no really, it would be a boring job working there, what sort of staff will it attract?)

    3. Possibility of it blowing up

    4. Staff who work there suffer from radiation poison. (Cases at Sellafield, but not sure if they contracted it when Sellafield was Windscale.

    I'm not an authority on this subject.

    www.greenpeace.com Thare's an article about Greenpeace picketing a nuclear station in Pickering, Canada on 12th March.
    Last edited by Astro; 27th-March-2009 at 04:49 PM.

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    But what is better for creating our ever growing need for power than nuclear? what do you suggest?

    also, using what we know of nuclear power for good is far removed from using nuclear power purely to kill.
    I agree, with proper design and operation nuclear powerplants are possibly our only option for the future with fossil fuels being depleted as they are. The thorny question remains about what we do with the waste however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Max Hastings' book Nemesis is very interesting (not only) on this question of the justification for the use of the Bombs.

    [SNIP]

    One element in the decision to drop the bombs was, apparently, the Air Force's feeling that it wanted to get 'in on the act' in a far larger way than it had been able to up to that point.

    It's hard not to disapprove of inter-service rivalry as a justification for such a move.

    Not to mention the effect that Stalin's invasion of Manchuria had on American deadlines...
    Bombing Japan contributed little to the destruction of the Japanese forces since the bombers were deliberately targeted on population centres (much as we did in Europe). Modern analysts agree that this indiscriminate terror campaign did not achieve what the bomber commanders said they would - i.e. a collapse of the will to fight. I believe myself that the systematic targeting of civilian population centres is immoral, whether this is by nuke or by incendiary (in Japan the firebomb attacks are widely believed to have killed over 500,000 civilians in the 6 months from January 1945). It still goes on though - only recently the Israelis were fairly indiscriminate in bombing Gaza.

    I know from experience of the UK and from 3.5 years with the USAF on exchange that rivalry between the services is often a driver for decisions. However in the case of the Manhattan project I would suspect that dropping the bombs had more to do with showing Stalin the power of the US than any rivalry between Army (no USAF until 1947) and Navy. Also, and more chillingly, the 2 cities were apparently specifically selected as ideal test sites for nuclear weapons in May 1945, and deliberately left alone in the firebomb raids so that bomb damage assessment would be more accurate!

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Wind machines, wave machines, hydro electric power, solar power. Admittedly there is not much of this in the UK, relatively speaking. There was a wind farm in the sea at Skegness.

    These power sources are becoming popular now, but they could have been popular 30 years ago if the governments had committed to them.
    I'm an electrical engineer. 30 years ago wind, wave and solar power sources were ineffective and expensive. They are getting better now but still not viable for meeting all of our needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    The problems with nuclear reactors are

    1. What to do with the radioactive waste. It used to be flushed into the sea. That's why nuclear power plants are always built on the coast in the UK.

    I don't think they are allowed to do this anymore, as the sea life was dying. (hope not!)

    2. Human error regarding leaks. (Homar Simpson!, no really, it would be a boring job working there, what sort of staff will it attract?)

    3. Possibility of it blowing up

    4. Staff who work there suffer from radiation poison. (Cases at Sellafield, but not sure if they contracted it when Sellafield was Windscale.

    I'm not an authority on this subject.

    www.greenpeace.com Thare's an article about Greenpeace picketing a nuclear station in Pickering, Canada on 12th March.
    Nuclear power produces huge amounts of heat and reactors are cooled by water and that is why they are built on rivers or near the sea. The nuclear component is a closed cycle operation and is not just discharged anywhere. Leaks can occur though.

    Obviously Chernobyl did blow up and there have been several near misses. But the nuclear industry is very safety conscious.

    As to who works there, one of my friends from university went to work at Torness in Scotland, where he was working with cutting edge systems and his pay was very good. I suspect that you'll find the people there are no slouches.

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Wind machines, wave machines, hydro electric power, solar power. Admittedly there is not much of this in the UK, relatively speaking.
    Interestingly the UK has most potential wind energy in Europe, but we don't make use of it.

    Plus you have to do something else when the wind stops blowing.
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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Interestingly the UK has most potential wind energy in Europe, but we don't make use of it.

    Plus you have to do something else when the wind stops blowing.
    The article says wind is a given in the UK.

    I do remember the general public trying to stop planning permission in some areas though. The said that wind farms are ugly to live near.

    Putting them out at sea is a great solution, and it is always more windy on the coast than inland.


    House building has been slow to turn green too. Houses in the UK are hard to heat. Only since the 60's do homes have cavity wall insulation.
    Open fires let out a lot of heat through the chimney.

    Solar panels are expensive. By now, surely they should be a norm?

    Also apparently you don't need lots of sun for solar panels to power a kettle in winter.

    What happens is once your store of solar energy is low, the system automatically starts using the national grid, so you are never without electricity.



    There is a rumour that approx 15 years ago, someone invented a car that runs on water.

    Needless to say, the oil companies soon bought up the patent and shoved it in a safe, never to be used.

    I wonder how often this happens? I bet people all over the world have invented machines that can save us dying out as a human race.

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    The article says wind is a given in the UK.

    I do remember the general public trying to stop planning permission in some areas though. The said that wind farms are ugly to live near.
    Perhaps we could paint them pretty colours? Perhaps we could redesign the fan blades to look like flower petals?

    Public attitude are not logical. Windmill = desirable scenery, but windfarm

    Perhaps we could suggest to protestors that if they all agree to do without electricity we will move the turbines further from them.

    There is a rumour that approx 15 years ago, someone invented a car that runs on water.

    Needless to say, the oil companies soon bought up the patent and shoved it in a safe, never to be used.
    Oh dear. They should make urban myths bio-degradeable, this one has lasted far too long.

    Patents are granted as a reward for making an invention public, so that everybody can benefit from it. The alternative for an inventor is to try and keep things a trade secret, so only the inventor can benefit.

    As part of the patent process all patents, except those affecting national security, are published. You can be sure if it were possible to run warships or tanks on water it would have happened.
    I wonder how often this happens? I bet people all over the world have invented machines that can save us dying out as a human race.

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Perhaps we could paint them pretty colours? Perhaps we could redesign the fan blades to look like flower petals?
    no need!!! There's a big one (ok, I don't have any idea how big they are usually) next to the M4 near Reading. It looks stunning to me. Of course you need to be a passenger to enjoy it without making a mess of the traffic.

    Also my breath was taken away when I ventured onto the beach at Skeggy (some of us do!) where they are growing in the sea. It looked beautiful to me.
    Last edited by DavidY; 28th-March-2009 at 01:16 PM. Reason: fixed quote

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Perhaps we could paint them pretty colours? Perhaps we could redesign the fan blades to look like flower petals?...
    I need a sarcasm smiley

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I need a sarcasm smiley
    Tongue In Cheek would be useful!

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascot Lady View Post
    Tongue In Cheek would be useful!
    Who's tongue?


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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascot Lady View Post
    Tongue In Cheek would be useful!
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Who's tongue?

    which cheek?!?!?!?!?

    ahem...

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    Re: Lest we forget

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    which cheek?!?!?!?!?

    ahem...
    and ahem from me too.
    Having introduced an apprentice poster to the forum basement, what shall we do now?

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