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Thread: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    You guys know that we're setting up our own exciting venture here in Stoke-on-Trent. You also may have heard that we are currently helping Maja as much as we can to set up her new successful Ceroc night in Stoke too. It's all going great guns. Even though we are both offering VERY different products

    I will be completely honest and say that when we first spoke about running our own independent freestyles we were deeply concerned about "evil" Ceroc. We had heard many horror stories about the "evil empire". This made us feel very cautious and did colour some of our decisions with regard to our business.

    However, working alongside Maja and Ceroc to build a great class night in our city has been a refreshing eye opener. It seems, so far at least, that you can work in not just in the same area, but in the same city as Ceroc! Maybe this reflects a change in attitude by Ceroc. After all Ceroc want what we all want don't they; more dancers on the dance floors. Perhaps building some bridges between Ceroc and independent dance companies is a way forward. Building our community into something bigger and better. This would mean a little more understanding and a little less suspicion from both sides. Of course I could be being completely naïve - I hope not!

    Do you think it's time we all started to play nice and see Ceroc more as a big brother, rather than Big Brother? Is that ever going to be possible? If my personal experience so far is anything to go by, I would say it is. Would it be better for UK dancing in the long term? Does the "us" and "them" attitude help to keep variety and choice, or does it just breed bad blood? I am hopeful that we will be able to continue to comfortably co-exist with Ceroc in the future. I guess on that score only time will tell.

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    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    I think you'll find that is more down to Maja, than Ceroc. There are certain franchisees that are more than happy to have independants in the same town and are lovely people. Maja being one of them, she had CJ there to DJ for her when others weren't 'allowed'. I don't think you can band all of Ceroc together so easily.

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    My point really is... it IS possible

    I have seen that it is possible. And it's so much more productive for everyone involved. Is it a pipe dream to think that we can increase the peace?

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    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    My point really is... it IS possible

    I have seen that it is possible. And it's so much more productive for everyone involved. Is it a pipe dream to think that we can increase the peace?
    World peace is possible.

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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Well done Stokie!!! So Ceroc is not the big bad wolf that a lot of people think of. Ceroc is a decent co led by a couple of decent blokes, offering an excellent dance experience.

    Cruella let us see how far we go into this thread afore you start poking at Rocky, shall we.

    DTS XXX XXX

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    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Well done Stokie!!! So Ceroc is not the big bad wolf that a lot of people think of. Ceroc is a decent co led by a couple of decent blokes, offering an excellent dance experience.

    Cruella let us see how far we go into this thread afore you start poking at Rocky, shall we.

    DTS XXX XXX
    Nah, he's boring to poke now, he's stopped biting. You on the other hand............

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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    World peace is possible.
    Only beauty pageant contestants think that!

    So...

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    B.O.G.O.F. fletch's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post

    Do you think it's time we all started to play nice and see Ceroc more as a big brother, rather than Big Brother? Is that ever going to be possible? If my personal experience so far is anything to go by, I would say it is. Would it be better for UK dancing in the long term? Does the "us" and "them" attitude help to keep variety and choice, or does it just breed bad blood? I am hopeful that we will be able to continue to comfortably co-exist with Ceroc in the future. I guess on that score only time will tell.
    Stokie, I belive its individuals that cause problems not the organisation, we have heard of issues in the Midlands between Ceroc and Venues, have a look at the individuals incident, was it Ceroc H.O.? NO

    Look at the lovely little 'T' dance we have at Bromsgrove has any one ever touched it NO If it was Ceroc's policy it would have gone long ago or at least an attempt would have been made on it.

    I say time and time again 'turth will out'

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    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    Stokie, I belive its individuals that cause problems not the organisation,
    Er, isn't that what I already said?

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    There are certain franchisees that are more than happy to have independants in the same town

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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Stokie, I'm living in hope that the Stoke experience can be expanded. I've seen first hand in our local area how Big Brother can behave, especially if numbers are dwindling in some of the local venues. It may be different in Stoke (as you both combine to rebuild a dance presence) and I'm glad you're able to co-habit the city with Ceroc but I'm sure that the Ceroc v Independant story is not as happy everywhere. Whether this is down to an edict from Ceroc Head Office or not is probably lost on the bulk of people, and that might be unfair but probably comes with the territory if you're the biggest on the block.

    DTS, are you the new Rocky my friend? Just because one city is currently wolf free doesn't necessarily mean that the Ceroc wolf pack doesn't exist. Not that Ceroc are the only organisation likely to exhibit wolf-like behaviour, I'm sure that some of the independants savage each other too.


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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    I say time and time again 'turth will out'
    Fletch your little sayings are legend....................

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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    It would be great to see everyone living in perfect harmony (sounds like a cue for a song!), whether it be Ceroc and the independants, or MJ and WCS, trouble is money rules, and as long as you have to pay someones wages, rather than just use your takings to support the next event, you will always get the former trying to stab the latter in the back.

    For example, on the rock and roll scene, (a much smaller concern than MJ I hasten to add) we have two venues living quite happiliy with each other on a Monday evening about 2 miles away from each other. They've been going now for around 15-20 years, and all profits go into the next few months events, and probably will for another 15 years. They know the punters will decide which one they want to go to - and they are both well-supported
    That wouldn't happen if one of them was a rock and roll franchise!

    The secret is what Stokie is doing - offer something slighly different to what the big guy is, and let the punters make the decision - there's enough to go round.

    I do however agree with what many have said - individuals have a great impact upon others perception, and knowing both Maja and Stokie, I'm not surprised that they can work together in this way

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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    I say time and time again 'turth will out'
    Yet despite this, Turth adamantly remains in the closet.

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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Yet despite this, Turth adamantly remains in the closet.
    not forever it will 'out'

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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jivejunkie View Post
    The secret is what Stokie is doing - offer something slighly different to what the big guy is, and let the punters make the decision - there's enough to go round.

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Contrary to the slogans on many of my T shirts I know that the world doesn't revolve around me. This thread, and this question isn't really about Maja and me. It's about showing what is possible... in fact it's showing that it's possible at all; and asking the question, can we work towards a time when the situation with Maja & me is the norm as opposed to the exception? That is what I would like to see.

    Speaking to as many dancers as I do I can tell you that the general sentiment among the dancers is pretty much in concord with my feelings. The back biting is getting very old and the under handed tricks that leave the dancers feeling torn (often between good friends) is not welcome or healthy. If a level of comfortable co-existence is possible in Northern Ireland then, surely a bunch of (fairly) civilised dancers can get along. No?

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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    I have to say, since Kev and I started up our venue, we've received nothing but good wishes from all our Ceroc friends and organisers.

    Robin and Tezi, who run CerocMetro's nights in Finchley (quite near to us), said, the only thing that upset them, was the fact that they couldn't come along.

    We also received good luck messages from Linda Ellard (Mikes wife), Franck and Sheena and lots of the other big names within Ceroc.

    I've believe we're offering a different product, which probably appeals to a different clientele and so far it all seems to be working harmoniously. CerocMetro still have a buzzing venue and so do we and I wouldn't want it any other way.
    I think one of the major factors is.. some of our punters come from literally MILES away. One guy, believe it or not, comes from Wiltshire we have a group that travel down together from Bedford and another from Aylesbury etc Whereas, there would be no need to travel so far to get to a good Ceroc night. So it really 'isn't' the same punters!

    Its the same with yours Stokie, I can't see many people traveling as far as some of your people are, to get to a standard Ceroc night... but thats not because it wouldn't be a good night but simplybecause they would be able to get a similar, decent Ceroc night within a much nearer radius

    Ceroc offer a 'tried and tested' formula (which is still evolving) which works and is hugely successful but I think they're now realizing that some of the independents are offering something different and instead of fighting, I believe they're now working with, learning from and embracing them!

    I truly do think things have moved on!
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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jivejunkie View Post
    ... They know the punters will decide which one they want to go to - and they are both well-supported
    That wouldn't happen if one of them was a rock and roll franchise! ...
    The first few times a "punter" goes to an MJ class they go to learn how to do it. A smaller class should be better than a bigger class because they should get more individual tuition from the teacher.

    Once they start dancing they start wanting a bigger and better choice of partner. Even with two well run identical venues run by the same organiser one venue will tend to grow in numbers and the other will stick first at being a nursery venue, and tend to slowly evolve into being a social club, with a very loyal and regular clientele. Your rock'n'roll clubs are proably an example, and there are hordes of country dance organisations that work like that.

    If you are running such a venue for love and it covers its costs, then that is fine. If you are running several venues to earn all or part of your living then it is an extra weight to carry.

    One of the factors slowing Ceroc's growth is that venues compete just by existing. Running a venue at break-even is har work enough if the people that start there move on to other venues that you run, but if the beneficiary is antoher franchisee or organisation it makes no business sense.

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    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc: Big Brother, or a big brother?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jivejunkie View Post
    It would be great to see everyone living in perfect harmony (sounds like a cue for a song!), whether it be Ceroc and the independants, or MJ and WCS, trouble is money rules, and as long as you have to pay someones wages, rather than just use your takings to support the next event, you will always get the former trying to stab the latter in the back

    ...

    That wouldn't happen if one of them was a rock and roll franchise!

    ...
    Maybe money does rule, but only when a scarcity mentality is prominent. Which, sadly, is all too often the case.

    If there is only so much cake, then the more eaters that I can stab (is dispatch), the more I'll be able to fit on my own fork.

    [How much can someone dance in one week? 1/2 or 6-7 times? How many potential dancers are out there from a population of over 60 million?]

    However, this relies on the assumption that everyone involved is after the same resource for the same reason.

    The abundance mentality says that there's plenty around for everyone, cos we all want different things (if slightly) in different measures (if slightly).

    Clearly, one mentality ends with bloodshed and death , and the other ends up in a Nirvan-ous hippy world!!! Way out man!!

    Go on ... shoot me down!!!

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