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Thread: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

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    Registered User Cornish Pixie's Avatar
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    Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Hi guys, after coming back from blush I have noticed a few things about my dancing that bought up some interesting questions.

    I have probably been dancing for about 6 years now and i noticed this weekend that most of the time I never had to think ahead as to what the next move would be, it was all done subconsciously. The only time i started thinking ahead and panicking was when I was dancing with someone that i thought was quite intimidating until id asked them!

    I just wondered if anyone else had noticed this and if so,how long they had been dancing when its started happening

    Also, a point related to not having to think about leading. A question for followers and leaders. I wondered how many leaders are able to make up moves on the spot and is it something that a lot of people do. I dont just mean when something goes wrong and creates a new mood but more specifically when you improvise and something gets led just because it feels right in relation to the position yours and your partners body that you have never led or learnt before.

    This rarely happens to me except after hours of dancing at a weekender and when you are tired and relaxed enough to let go. Does anyone find it easy? Or do you have any tips for getting to that special place?

    Cheers Nick

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Pixie View Post

    I have probably been dancing for about 6 years now and i noticed this weekend that most of the time I never had to think ahead as to what the next move would be, it was all done subconsciously.
    Sounds like you had a great weekend, - and a "progression milestone" to me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Pixie View Post

    I just wondered if anyone else had noticed this and if so,how long they had been dancing when its started happening
    Very interesting question, - this is where I want to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Pixie View Post

    Also, a point related to not having to think about leading. A question for followers and leaders. I wondered how many leaders are able to make up moves on the spot and is it something that a lot of people do. I dont just mean when something goes wrong and creates a new mood but more specifically when you improvise and something gets led just because it feels right in relation to the position yours and your partners body that you have never led or learnt before.

    This rarely happens to me except after hours of dancing at a weekender and when you are tired and relaxed enough to let go. Does anyone find it easy? Or do you have any tips for getting to that special place?

    Cheers Nick
    I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this thread, not thinking ahead about moves and thinking only about the music is my long term goal (got a little while to go yet as i've only done around 40 classes/workshops/121s).

    I am slowly trying to improve my understanding of individual movement components which make up moves and I hope to eventually dance without using moves/routines as much at some point in the future. I've been told that many leads never get to this stage however.

    How much I think ahead does vary, - the more I'm loving the music & connecting with my partner the less I find myself thinking ahead, - latley this seems to be happening in the midst of latin/spanishy numbers

    I will keep an eye on this thread, - any tips for how leaders trangressed from dancing using 'moves' to 'movements' will be very interesting for newbies like me to read

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Pixie View Post
    Hi guys, after coming back from blush I have noticed a few things about my dancing that bought up some interesting questions.

    I have probably been dancing for about 6 years now and i noticed this weekend that most of the time I never had to think ahead as to what the next move would be, it was all done subconsciously. The only time i started thinking ahead and panicking was when I was dancing with someone that i thought was quite intimidating until id asked them!

    I just wondered if anyone else had noticed this and if so,how long they had been dancing when its started happening

    Also, a point related to not having to think about leading. A question for followers and leaders. I wondered how many leaders are able to make up moves on the spot and is it something that a lot of people do. I dont just mean when something goes wrong and creates a new mood but more specifically when you improvise and something gets led just because it feels right in relation to the position yours and your partners body that you have never led or learnt before.

    This rarely happens to me except after hours of dancing at a weekender and when you are tired and relaxed enough to let go. Does anyone find it easy? Or do you have any tips for getting to that special place?

    Cheers Nick
    I have previously posted about my first moment, my conversion on road to Damascus, when after 5 months solid of 4 nights a week of moves learning and practicing, I went to JA's first weekender and danced the night away. Including many many dances with Miss Conduct and Zebra Woman.

    About 3 in the morning I can vividly recall my ureka moment when I realised that for the first time I was not thinking about what the next move was.....I was in fact making shapes in time with the music....(in a very basic form).

    Many times in the previous 5 months Mrs Par (pleased as she was with my improvement) would say but you are not dancing in time to the music. To which I would reply...I am too busy try to think about what the next move should be!!!

    It was not until that night, my Damascus night, that I actually really heard MUSIC for the first time.

    I mean I had heard tunes and knew some I liked more than others but what I experienced was feeling the music and feeling the necessity to move and make shapes in time to this music (albeit very poorly).

    What that meant for me in reality was that there would be times when the MUSIC was "saying " something and I would be inclined to strive and say something too, in the shapes I made relating to this MUSIC.

    My need to "say something" to correspond to what MUSIC was being played lead to many improvisations and subconsciously conceived moves or blocks ... endeavoring to make my dance shapes fit the MUSIC my ear was newly attuned to.

    Over a period of time now I have really tried to allow my ear to LEAD my dance.

    I now have no pre-conceived idea what I will dance until the music starts, and the MUSIC dictates my shapes and moves.... I have very few sequences I follow rote fashion.... and my ear leads me into many shapes and many I have never completed before.

    Ultimately I have no more moves than anyone else has, but I feel it is how they are all randomly linked together in time to the MUSIC that leads to a feeling of improvisation even musicality.

    Hours and hours of dedication to freestyle events up and down the country, gives one the opportunity to play with the shapes, play with the MUSIC, with many great dancers and gives fabulous satisfaction.

    You do not always have to think ahead when dancing.... you can feel the MUSIC at times and when you do, make whatever shapes you feel suit. There is no right nor any wrong its what feels good... JUST SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT HURT ANYONE.

    Seek out more weekenders and long freestyles and you will surely find more improvisation appear in your dancing.

    Good Luck Happy Dancing.

    Under Par

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    My need to "say something" to correspond to what MUSIC was being played lead to many improvisations and subconsciously conceived moves or blocks ... endeavoring to make my dance shapes fit the MUSIC my ear was newly attuned to.
    I now have no pre-conceived idea what I will dance until the music starts, and the MUSIC dictates my shapes and moves....
    I'm totally with you on this, I have no idea how I'm going to react to what my partner leads, until it happens

    I'm NOT saying I don't follow but I do add in my own little accents to punctuate the movements, so the dance becomes a 3way conversation, between me, my partner and the music.

    The most inspired things definitely happen mostly on weekenders, after hours of dancing, when I'm slightly tired and very relaxed. and have the right partner, of course! (some partners give absolutely no room at all, which I personally find quite stifling )

    I know it freaks out many leads but I can't help it, honestly.

    I've said it before and I mean it, I surprise myself most of the time! And it doesn't necessarily always go right OR look very cool
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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I'm totally with you on this, I have no idea how I'm going to react to what my partner leads, until it happens

    I'm NOT saying I don't follow but I do add in my own little accents to punctuate the movements, so the dance becomes a 3way conversation, between me, my partner and the music.

    The most inspired things definitely happen mostly on weekenders, after hours of dancing, when I'm slightly tired and very relaxed. and have the right partner, of course! (some partners give absolutely no room at all, which I personally find quite stifling )

    I know it freaks out many leads but I can't help it, honestly.

    I've said it before and I mean it, I surprise myself most of the time! And it doesn't necessarily always go right OR look very cool

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Pixie View Post
    I wondered how many leaders are able to make up moves on the spot and is it something that a lot of people do. I dont just mean when something goes wrong and creates a new mood but more specifically when you improvise and something gets led just because it feels right in relation to the position yours and your partners body that you have never led or learnt before.

    This rarely happens to me except after hours of dancing at a weekender and when you are tired and relaxed enough to let go.
    It rarely happens for me and, like you, when it does it is usually a weekender on the Sunday night. the tiredness and general immersion of a weekender must add to it.

    The major feedback I get from the few private lessons I have is that my dancing is predictable - well executed but predictable and I can see exactly why that is said. Changing it is hard as muscle memory means that though I am not specifically thinking ahead certain movements will flow automatically into others (hence the predictability)

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    {Lots of stuff}
    Blimey UP, I bet the coppers and their suspects in your station were getting a bit grumpy waiting to be checked in as you 'just finished off this important message' before dealing with them

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post



    Blimey UP, I bet the coppers and their suspects in your station were getting a bit grumpy waiting to be checked in as you 'just finished off this important message' before dealing with them
    Robd....actually for once my night time posting was actually made at home.

    Sat at home relaxing after a day out golfing and celebrating St Patricks Day

    But I will make sure I check the bad guys regularly in future.... honest

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Pixie View Post
    A question for followers and leaders. I wondered how many leaders are able to make up moves on the spot and is it something that a lot of people do. I dont just mean when something goes wrong and creates a new mood but more specifically when you improvise and something gets led just because it feels right in relation to the position yours and your partners body that you have never led or learnt before.
    I find this happens to me when 2 conditions are met:
    - I stop worrying about following and what is led (yes, it happens sometimes ), and immerse myself completely in the flow (the movement) and the music. I find that shapes and moves become mostly a consequence of the music and the current connection between the partners
    - The lead allows for this to happen - i.e. he leaves the door open for it to happen, mostly by not forcing the lead but inviting to lead (and hence recognising that once the direction and movement is given, there may be different ways to finish the shape he started), and he doesn't freak out if things don't go as planned - he feeds off them


    Let's just say, it doesn't happen that often - mostly it is a few instants in some dances, sometimes if it starts off this way it can be carried out for the whole dance... don't we all love those dances
    And as you said, this all becomes much more likely when we are all tired and our brains let go...

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    I truly have no ideas what I do when I dance... but I must be doing moves of some sort.

    This may or may not work...

    In terms of "throwing shapes", we can equate a dance move to a word, made up of movements which equate to syllables.

    Take the first move: "pneumatic"

    left hand goes to shoulder as U step in side to side (Pneu)
    lady pivots on her left leg, U do appropriate leading stuff bring her back to ur side (ma)
    turn and return (tic)
    whole thing together... Pneumatic. To the music, this could be "Pneuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuumatic" or Pneumaaaaaaaaaaaaatic" or even "Pneumatiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiic ". Make sense so far??

    Let's consider the yoyo: "Rhumatic" (spelling??)
    right hand to left shoulder as U stand side to side (Rhu)
    lady pivots on left leg, then back as U do maly leady things... (ma)
    turn and return (tic).

    So, we have Pneumatic and rhumatic. What does automatic look like? or automania? or Pneumania?? Rhumacism?? Rhumba... etc, etc, etc..

    So, take each (or any) syllable and make ur own words: as, how and when the music dictates...

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    And as you said, this all becomes much more likely when we are all tired and our brains let go...
    Mmmm, not too sure that 'very tired' dancers are necessarily going to know good dancing when they see or feel it.

    Must be a bit like being drunk surely ? You think your great, and your equally drunk partner thinks it's 'brill', but is it really ?


    Not making a claim here, just noticed the similarities between the two Mind, I can testify to some exquisite drunk dancin', so who cares

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Must be a bit like being drunk surely ? You think your great, and your equally drunk partner thinks it's 'brill', but is it really ?


    ...... who cares
    Exactly... who cares
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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Mmmm, not too sure that 'very tired' dancers are necessarily going to know good dancing when they see or feel it.

    Must be a bit like being drunk surely ? You think your great, and your equally drunk partner thinks it's 'brill', but is it really ?

    I'm sure there's a point at which tiredness and alcohol significantly impair your dancing, but I'm also fairly convinced that a little tiredness or alcohol can improve your dancing in such a way that you do not try to stick to the known stuff anymore / getting everything right and just 'let go'. It leaves the door open to more things, some will look like mistakes / mishaps, some will be great new stuff that you may not have tried/discovered before.

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Good questions. For me... I do keep a vague shape in mind of what I'm aiming to do over the next couple of bars or so, but that can change at any moment - depending on music, partner, mood, other dancers on the floor, I'll very likely play with the timing a lot (I do this pretty constantly anyway), extend moves, change my mind and do something else altogether... anything can - and probably will - happen. The one constant - the one thing I try always to do - is to keep my lead clear.

    The second question - making up moves - is very much related, I think, to the first. My partner has a good analogy for it - if you think about a partner dance as a language, and moves as stock phrases, then if you learn a bunch of stock phrases, you can make yourself understood in a number of important ways. If you want to have a conversation, you need more tools. Lower-level tools. You need to start learning grammar and vocabulary - which really breaks down in dance to steps, movement skills and leading/follow techniques. The more comfortable you are with these, the more you have at your disposal, the easier it is to throw all the moves away completely, and improvise to your heart's content.

    Unfortunately, MJ as it is generally taught doesn't really have that breakdown. The good news is that you don't have far to look to look for help - good connection classes, blues classes, musicality classes etc are becoming more common, and for the really dedicated, one can look further afield - from partner dances like AT, Lindy, WCS, to some of the Latin dances, to the more rarified likes of jazz steps, contact improvisation, contemporary etc etc etc - all these can be of immense help.

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Pixie View Post
    I have probably been dancing for about 6 years now and i noticed this weekend that most of the time I never had to think ahead as to what the next move would be, it was all done subconsciously. The only time i started thinking ahead and panicking was when I was dancing with someone that i thought was quite intimidating until id asked them!

    I just wondered if anyone else had noticed this and if so,how long they had been dancing when its started happening
    The only time I think ahead more than to the next couple of beats is when I can hear an obvious break coming up or the end of the track.

    I'm always thinking about a beat ahead of my self:
    If you are jumping up and down so that you land on every beat, then you have to time the 'take-off' in the space between the last beat (when you landed) and the next one (when you want to land). Each 'count' should have you marking a specific 'pose' - (ie landing) so if you prepare for it in the space between the last count and this one, it tends to go a lot smoother. The perfect execution of would be either on a change of direction where the deceleration in one direction ends precisely on the beat and acceleration starts immediately. Or the pose would only be evident in a photograph at the precise moment of the beat because it's smoothed through. (Note: 'perfect' does not mean 'best')

    Actually it's normally a couple of beats ahead, depending on the music: I know where I'm heading to so once I've got that movement sorted, I'm then thinking "OK, what are my options from the position I'm going to be in..." Most folk will only have a few options from the moves they have been taught {*}. Once I've decided that, I will change the "landing position" to help me lead the next bit, and the cycle starts again.

    {*I'm not most folk }

    Also, a point related to not having to think about leading. A question for followers and leaders. I wondered how many leaders are able to make up moves on the spot and is it something that a lot of people do. I dont just mean when something goes wrong and creates a new mood but more specifically when you improvise and something gets led just because it feels right in relation to the position yours and your partners body that you have never led or learnt before.
    That pretty much describes most of my dancing. There is only a finite number of 'poses' that you can be in on any count and there are only a finite number of ways to move. Once you know these positions and movements, then the rest is just letting the music dictate your choice.

    Have a look at my "moves moves moves" workshop - it should at least spark some ideas to help your own dancing.

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    I have to admit, I don't understand the tiredness thing. It makes me a much worse dancer as I am less in control of my balance, less spatial awareness etc.

    As a follow (which is what I do most of the time) I rarely think ahead. I might notice a break coming, if it's a track I know well, but I won't plan what to do to accent it - it very much depends on the lead at that time.

    As a lead, I think ahead a little more, to try and do something musical, though my range of moves is limited. But I don't plan everything out, and never have done. It just flows into a 'see what happens next' movement.

    For me the 'wow' stuff can happen any time, anywhere. What I need, as a lead or as a follow, is someone with good connection, who I can 'feel', not just the physical connection, but some kind of emotional connection too. When I can 'feel' the person I'm dancing with, as well as the music, that's when the magic happens. And you don't need to be tired to do that IMO, in fact for me tiredness makes it harder to feel that.

    So, it's happened in the freestyle after class, it's happened at Red Hot & Blue (thank you - you know who you are!! ), it happens at regular parties/freestyles. It happened big time at the last Kirriemuir. But it has rarely happened for me at a weekender, and I'm not sure ever at Southport (wasn't there for this one due to other commitments), probably because everyone's so tired and I can't feel them!!

    But don't make the mistake of reading this and thinking I have these 'wow' dances all the time. I don't. But unlike lots of folk on here who seem to be able to predict them (at weekenders etc), I can't predict them at all. They just happen. And that makes it even more magical...

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Pixie View Post
    I never had to think ahead as to what the next move would be, it was all done subconsciously.
    I just wondered if anyone else had noticed this and if so,how long they had been dancing when its started happening
    I find that the moves that I do are affected most by the following:

    - the type of music being played ( latiny, funky, fast, slow etc)
    - my perceived or requested move preferences of the follower (steps, wiggles, ceroc moves, dance style etc)
    - how much space there is on the dance floor

    I rarely think more than one or two moves ahead and then only when I need to set up the right postions for the move I intend to do. I find my biggest problem sometimes is when I feel I am getting no feedback (response, input, play etc) from the follower and remembering what moves I have done so that I don't repeat them. I have to say these are the least satisfying dances I experience.

    Also, a point related to not having to think about leading. A question for followers and leaders. I wondered how many leaders are able to make up moves on the spot and is it something that a lot of people do. I dont just mean when something goes wrong and creates a new mood but more specifically when you improvise and something gets led just because it feels right in relation to the position yours and your partners body that you have never led or learnt before.
    I feel like this when I am confident and comfortable with a follower and I think the follower is feeling the same about me. Followers have said to me they feel receptive to just being led when they are tired or had a drink but this is not the only time. There are some followers that I am confident and comfortable with but see rarely, maybe on weekenders only and you get that feeling the moment you see them.

    I also find when the dance floors at at the extremes, empty or jammed packed this helps with improvisation.

    Another way I find that helps improvisation is to take an element of your repertoire away when dancing a track. Examples in a suggested order are

    - dancing whilst only using the followers right hand
    - dancing whilst only using the followers left hand
    - not doing a move regularly used ie return or travelling return to begin with
    Last edited by ant; 19th-March-2009 at 01:23 AM.

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Mmmm, not too sure that 'very tired' dancers are necessarily going to know good dancing when they see or feel it.

    Must be a bit like being drunk surely ? You think your great, and your equally drunk partner thinks it's 'brill', but is it really ?


    Not making a claim here, just noticed the similarities between the two Mind, I can testify to some exquisite drunk dancin', so who cares
    I'm sure there's a point at which tiredness and alcohol significantly impair your dancing, but I'm also fairly convinced that a little tiredness or alcohol can improve your dancing in such a way that you do not try to stick to the known stuff anymore / getting everything right and just 'let go'. It leaves the door open to more things, some will look like mistakes / mishaps, some will be great new stuff that you may not have tried/discovered before.
    I understand what Caro is saying. I think that you get to a point where there is a degree of 'relaxation' where the dance becomes a little unconscious, and it is in this state that I have my best dances. Lots of people on the Forum have mentioned getting into the Zone and that's what I interpret Caro to be saying. I found myself in this state within 15 minutes of arrival at Red Hot & Blue one night and had probably the best dances ever, but typically I tend to get there after a couple of hours where I've relaxed into it.

    Back to the original post. I don't tend to plan ahead at all. I've sometimes got to the end of a dance and been asked what move I'd done at a point in the track and honestly cannot remember - it was just something that felt right at the time. If I think too hard about planning particular moves or sequences then I find that my dancing is less enjoyable and a lot more stilted. I've been told by followers that many of us leads have little sequences, where they know if move A is done it will typically be followed by move B then C, in my case I recognise that I might do this occasionally but I don't plan it.

    I guess that I was about 6 months into dancing before this trance-like state started becoming more normal, and I'm always reminded of just how easy it is to be knocked out of the Zone - a bad couple of tracks, a follower that doesn't [follow that is], someone talking to you as you're trying to lose yourself in the music.

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessiemonster View Post
    I have to admit, I don't understand the tiredness thing. It makes me a much worse dancer as I am less in control of my balance, less spatial awareness etc.
    I think it's a relaxation thing as much as anything. I agree that if I'm feeling genuinely tired while I'm dancing, I won't dance as well. Sometimes though, especially after a long day / night's dancing, I enter an almost dream-like state, where I'm actually quite energised on some levels, a little shut-down on others (especially any levels that have anything to do with articulating intelligent sentences), and extremely relaxed on most levels. This can make for some incredibly liberated and intense dances.

    So on the tiredness / alcohol front, I think it's simply a case of being just tired enough, or having just enough alcohol to achieve that feeling of relaxation, without getting to the stage where your coordination is impaired.

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I think it's a relaxation thing as much as anything. So on the tiredness / alcohol front, I think it's simply a case of being just tired enough, or having just enough alcohol to achieve that feeling of relaxation, without getting to the stage where your coordination is impaired.
    I think I see what you're saying. Not a state I frequent often - I'm either tired or I'm not, and therefore I'm either co-ordinated or I'm not.

    Rather sad indictment on us all, and society today, that so many folk require to go to such lengths to be relaxed. Shame to have to put yourself through all that lack of sleep etc at weekenders, which can't be good for your body, in order to relax.

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    Re: Do you always have to think ahead when dancing?

    I rarely think ahead in terms of "moves". I tend to listen to the music, respond to my partner, and respond to the space on the floor.
    I usually dance slotted (although I will rotate the slot at any time), and I think my dancing is really boring, as I just continually do variations on changing place: she can pass to my right and I turn towards her; she can pass to my right and I turn away from her; she can pass to my right and I block her then send her back... The variations can very quickly add up, and might be considered "moves".
    But I certainly don't think ahead to different moves; I simply continue changing place, and try to do it differently each time.
    What makes it different is that I try to match the music and change the timing. If I find something other than the beat that I can dance to, I might restrain my partner for beats then do a 6 beat move in 4 beats, or do the 6 beat move in 4 beats and finish with simply holding my partner close for 2 beats (to give her time to recover from the earlier accelerated steps).

    No, I do not always have to think ahead, because I am just doing variations on the same thing.

    I do "listen ahead" to predict when breaks are coming. And if I want to do a particular move to hit a break I have to think ahead and plan it (and usually adjust the timing as my thinking ahead is often wrong). But more often I just do whatever seems most obvious to mark the break. Combs are good. If a break is 5-7 beats, then you might have 3-5 beats with a woman bodyrolling right in front of you (or even right against you). In contrast, I find dips less interesting.

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