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Thread: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    If you mean "don't you need to know what Gus sees as 'normal' blues?" - well - possibly, but he's pulled his standard vanishing act, so I'm going with what I see.
    Not vanished dear boy ... had made my point, it didn't seem to affect the debate so I didn't see as I had anything more to contribute ... INSTEAD I'm moving into the space of 'less talk, more action' and been playing around with how I'm going to teach my 'next level' (not 'Advanced' )Blues workshop.

    In truth, seen little from the videos so far that I want/am able to teach so focusing on some of the really usefull contributions made in this thread (which was why I started it) about what they want ... and have spent some time talking to some my target audience ..... SO, I'm off to play in the real world and let this debate of minds continue here without me dragging it down to my level of contribution. Happy now?

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    ... INSTEAD I'm moving into the space of 'less talk, more action' and been playing around with how I'm going to teach my 'next level' (not 'Advanced' )Blues workshop.

    ... Happy now?
    Ecstatic. What do you plan to teach?

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    What do you plan to teach?
    He was perfecting the Waffle Party Walk-by on Sunday

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    He was perfecting the Waffle Party Walk-by on Sunday
    Have you any idea just how SCARY you guys looked form the outside? Especially when Groovy Dancer was up dancing/singing/miming .... come to think of it, what the heck was he doing???

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Briefly, Chris teaches Lindy Hop and Blues, while Dee teaches, organises and DJs Blues. So, consider yourself to be "very surprised". I'm not.
    Colour me surprised then.

    I blame my lack of exposure to other dance styles.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Colour me surprised then.
    I've always wondered - what colour is 'surprised'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I blame my lack of exposure to other dance styles.
    Why does my sudden (slightly scary) mental image of someone exposing himself to other dance styles involve a long dirty raincoat? Maybe I'd better ask a shrink about that one...

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    I think all the alarm the word 'advanced' creates is silly.

    Advanced just means that whatever is taught is a progression on whatever was taught in intermediate.

    Any subject can be divided into beg int and adv just like any range of speeds can be divided into slow fast and faster. How a teacher makes this division depends on their understanding of the subject and the ability of their students.





    And as for 'but blues is a feeling, it can't be taught' I have to disagree. Blues has a feeling, expressed through movement.

    I mean, I believe lovemaking consists of feelings. But unless you're part of some eastern cult it probably consists of moving around a little as well, and that part can be taught.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I think all the alarm the word 'advanced' creates is silly...
    My reaction is not alarm, it is scepticism.

    ...Advanced just means that whatever is taught is a progression on whatever was taught in intermediate...
    but in order to define an advance you have to be able to know where you are, and in which direction you are seeking to go. Blues dancing is so poorly defined that what is an advance for one can be a loss of direction for another.

    This thread has moved my understanding forward. There are advanced techniques which help in dancing in general, and I believe these will undoubtably help in blues dance.

    And as for 'but blues is a feeling, it can't be taught' I have to disagree. Blues has a feeling, expressed through movement...
    ... it probably consists of moving around a little as well, and that part can be taught.
    I am at the "feeling cannot be taught" end of the spectrum. I think that feeling is something that is almost impossible to teach. How to express or simulate those feelings can be. Actors can be taught how to express murderous rage, but, hopefully, they do not feel it.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I think all the alarm the word 'advanced' creates is silly.
    Silly, perhaps, but we're all human. Dance can be a pretty emotionally charged area as it is, and a dance learning environment can often triggering feelings of inadequacy, nervousness etc in people. Adding on an 'advanced' label can amplify all that for some people - for example, I still approach some advanced classes with nervous feelings of 'what if I'm not good enough?' Which is daft, sure, but that doesn't stop me.

    So... silly, yes. But understandable.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    I'm moving into the space of 'less talk, more action' and been playing around with how I'm going to teach my 'next level' (not 'Advanced' )Blues workshop.
    To reiterate Stray...

    So what's the curriculum then? What will the 'next level' be teaching to advance us in our blues dancing?

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    And as for 'but blues is a feeling, it can't be taught' I have to disagree. Blues has a feeling, expressed through movement.
    Isn't that kind of the definition of "dance" ?
    The point of the discussion (I thought) was to try and define this movement a bit better - how best to express the music.... But perhaps it's not. Perhaps it's not about how to express the music but how to change your movements in order to apply more of the expression felt in the music.
    The clips posted vary so much but both styles are still termed "blues" - you use the movements and 'patterns' {for lack of a better word} you know for the how - it's primarily about having the musicality to listen to the music and recognise 'patterns' within it that you can transpose into physical patterns on top of/within your dance.

    I would say that an "Advanced" blues class would teach variations in timing (specifically slower things) that could be applied to any move/movement.

    {Sorry for the rambling: Discussions like this help me crystallise my own thoughts on the subject and ask questions of my self.}

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post

    but in order to define an advance you have to be able to know where you are, and in which direction you are seeking to go. Blues dancing is so poorly defined that what is an advance for one can be a loss of direction for another.
    .
    Well Blues dance may be poorly defined, but I know roughly where I am and where I want to go...

    Where I am: Loving dance and in particular Blues and wanting to know more, whichever direction that takes me.

    A start on the list of What I want to know / where I want to go with my Dance style in General:

    • Learn about myself - What my limits are, and which areas I excel in.
    • Learn more about moves - "Ordinary Blues" and MicroBlues, also Dramatic Break Moves
    • Musicality, how it affects my view of music in general, and therefore my style of dance.
    • Connection - All and any styles of Connection - Including but not exclusively: Lead and Follow Connection, Partner Body Connection, Connection to the Floor, Musical Connection
    • Different Types of Music and How they affect my dance interpretation - I'm sure I dance differently to Classical, Jazz or to the Top Ten.
    • Different Tempos of Music and how they affect my mood and dance style.
    • Practice with the best dancers I can find - particularly Blues Lovers


    Will that do for a start?


    Whitetiger

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    To reiterate Stray...

    So what's the curriculum then? What will the 'next level' be teaching to advance us in our blues dancing?
    Don't know yet ... its work in progress ..... its not going to be 'advanced' Blues because a) not sure a market exists, b) if it does, not sure I can dveelop a product to meet that market's needs .... but I do have ideas on presenting something above my current suite of workshops ... probably about connection points, using weight changes to create movement; movement into some interesting shapes that can help feel the music; how to give space for improvisation adopting some WCS movement .... you know, general stuff like that .... but it will still be growing from the tree of 'UK/N&N' Blues

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    Well Blues dance may be poorly defined, but I know roughly where I am and where I want to go...

    Where I am: Loving dance and in particular Blues and wanting to know more, whichever direction that takes me.

    A start on the list of What I want to know / where I want to go with my Dance style in General:

    • Learn about myself - What my limits are, and which areas I excel in.
    • Learn more about moves - "Ordinary Blues" and MicroBlues, also Dramatic Break Moves
    • Musicality, how it affects my view of music in general, and therefore my style of dance.
    • Connection - All and any styles of Connection - Including but not exclusively: Lead and Follow Connection, Partner Body Connection, Connection to the Floor, Musical Connection
    • Different Types of Music and How they affect my dance interpretation - I'm sure I dance differently to Classical, Jazz or to the Top Ten.
    • Different Tempos of Music and how they affect my mood and dance style.
    • Practice with the best dancers I can find - particularly Blues Lovers

    Will that do for a start?


    Whitetiger
    Excellent ambitions - but the point I have reached is that just about all of those are relevant to dance in general. Such a course could be called AvDance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    .... but I do have ideas on presenting something above my current suite of workshops ... probably about connection points, using weight changes to create movement; movement into some interesting shapes that can help feel the music; how to give space for improvisation adopting some WCS movement .... you know, general stuff like that .... but it will still be growing from the tree of 'UK/N&N' Blues
    Whereas Gus has defined a blues start point and a direction for progression, and that would meet my criteria for an "Advancing in Blues" dance workshop.

    It is a shame that N&N are so shy about posting clips. Just one showing the core elements of the N&N blues style would be a great help in promoting their style of blues dance.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    probably about connection points, using weight changes to create movement; movement into some interesting shapes that can help feel the music; how to give space for improvisation adopting some WCS movement .... you know, general stuff like that .... but it will still be growing from the tree of 'UK/N&N' Blues
    Purely out of interest, because I must be a little more out of touch with UK blues than I'd thought - I've always considered things like connection points / weight changes / feeling the music & useful shapes therefor... to be the foundation of blues - in other words the beginners' blues starting point.

    So what is the standard MJ blues beginners' start point these days?
    (OK - so I probably should have asked this question at the start of the thread, but hey - no-one's perfect... )

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    And as for 'but blues is a feeling, it can't be taught' I have to disagree. Blues has a feeling, expressed through movement.
    Which brings a more general question about those feelings we are all talking about... If the act of feeling itself cannot be taught (although I'm sure it can be developped), IMO an important part of teaching dance includes creating an environment were your students find a way to express those feelings that make them want to dance in the first place. How many people do not want to dance or are restricted in their dancing because they are afraid they'll look stupid / ridiculous / friends will make fun of them ?

    On a more personal note, my initial problems with dancing (I took up dancing a few times when I was a student but never really got anywhere) and learning to dance were around being willing to admit, understand and express those feelings. It may seem completely weird to some people who've never had that struggle, but I wasn't from a background where you would admit or even know that music can connect with you in a way that makes you want to express yourself (through dancing).

    I'd suggest that to take your students to a different level (call it advanced if you want), you may want to help them to express what they feel when they hear music and dance. Why are they truly there ? What makes them dance, in general and in a specific piece of music ?
    Of course, if they could do that in a way that is not aesthetically unpleasing*, that would be even better (which is where technique comes in, i.e. connection, body movement etc).

    Sometimes that can then lead to something slightly different such as doing performances... if they find that they can do this well and are willing not only to express those feelings, but also let others see them and share them.
    But may be that's going away from the essence of blues dancing as we generally understand it here.

    *we still don't want our friends laughing at us now, do we.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    a) not sure a market exists
    I am sure a market does exist but alot will depend on your content.

    b) if it does, not sure I can dveelop a product to meet that market's needs
    and content is the tough bit as you are already indicating.
    but I do have ideas on presenting something above my current suite of workshops ... probably about connection points,
    I think there is material available here for a whole workshop on its own. Considering the various type of holds and learning how to switch from one to the other without frame collapse, would a tough nut to crack.. For example close embrace in Tango is an upper body connection but in MJ it is a lower body connection. Many people without training find it very hard to switch between the two. It would be useful to have both available in MJ as you could then use the Tango embrace to bring movement across the floor without body separation. If you can bring in a close embrace format for Rumba movement that allows change to other embraces that would be an achievement (Vicky McFarland is doing one for Ceroc using the Rumba theme). The close embrace in ballroom is more of a stomach connection and again if this can be brought in it will open up many avenues in relation to movement across the floor and connected static movement other than through the hip. I am not conversant in Balboa or WCS but I am sure exploring their connection points will help as well.

    using weight changes to create movement.. how to give space for improvisation adopting some WCS movement
    Can you elaborate on what dance types other than WCS you have in mind and how you will be using them. There seems to be alot of teaching around at the moment on "the smooth dance theme using WCS" so I am sure there is plenty of material there from a WCS perspective on its own.

    movement into some interesting shapes
    Are we talking individual movement or partnered movement because I notice that you have not mentioned individual body isolation and how you will bring this in. There is a whole workshop under this heading on its own as well. (I think H did one for Ceroc a while back and Maja includes this alot in her workshops.)

    that can help feel the music
    More focus on musicality, is vital. It would provide material for a stand alone workshop as well. I would have thought this area would be much more far reaching than you have indicated.

    but it will still be growing from the tree of 'UK/N&N' Blues
    I think to move it on beyond this you are going to need a working knowledge at the very least of about 6 different dance genres and a good understanding of individual body isolation movement and how to fit every thing in from a musicality viewpoint.

    Good luck and I hope it works out for you. I would be interested to know what your final content is though, please.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    What is the standard MJ blues beginners' start point these days?
    1. Teach slow swaying from side to side in closed.
    2. Teach ways to get from modern jive into slow swaying.
    3. Teach ways to get from slow swaying into modern jive.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    ... I think there is material available here for a whole workshop on its own. Considering the various type of holds and learning how to switch from one to the other without frame collapse, would a tough nut to crack.. For example close embrace in Tango is an upper body connection but in MJ it is a lower body connection. Many people without training find it very hard to switch between the two. It would be useful to have both available in MJ as you could then use the Tango embrace to bring movement across the floor without body separation. If you can bring in a close embrace format for Rumba movement that allows change to other embraces that would be an achievement (Vicky McFarland is doing one for Ceroc using the Rumba theme). The close embrace in ballroom is more of a stomach connection and again if this can be brought in it will open up many avenues in relation to movement across the floor and connected static movement other than through the hip. I am not conversant in Balboa or WCS but I am sure exploring their connection points will help as well.....

    ....Good luck and I hope it works out for you. I would be interested to know what your final content is though, please.
    Now we'll practise changing contact points. Thigh, stomach, chest, thigh, stomach, chest ....

    Hmmm...

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    1. Teach slow swaying from side to side in closed.
    2. Teach ways to get from modern jive into slow swaying.
    3. Teach ways to get from slow swaying into modern jive.
    Oh.

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