Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

[Agente Secreto]

Bigd thanks for getting us back on thread.

Guys lets not descend into fruitless discussion on whether universities encourage play (or more specifically creative play). I've got a BSc and MSc, and can't remember much creative play in either but it was several years ago............. I can remember a combination of lecturers that inspired and those that didn't but that's life.

In Blues, my opinion is that classes can only hope to improve by openly encouraging people to play with interpretation, mood, timings etc. Sure some connection techniques and other technical devices (moves as well) can help give you some tools but it only becomes Blues once you learn that you're expected to play. And for many this is quite a frightening concept at the start.

Agent 000
Licensed to Dance

[bigdjiver]

Bigd thanks for getting us back on thread.

Guys lets not descend into fruitless discussion on whether universities encourage play (or more specifically creative play). I've got a BSc and MSc, and can't remember much creative play in either but it was several years ago............. I can remember a combination of lecturers that inspired and those that didn't but that's life...

Can't have a discussion staying on topic ....

The best teachers & universities know the benefits of play ...

[bigdjiver]

This is more WCS than Blues in my opinion: just so happens to be danced to a "blues" track.
(whips, skippity footwork, open 'anchor' that they default to...)

...And these look to have more influence from ATango in my mind, again danced to a blues track.
(Embrace hold, follower having torso connection with the lead, lead's hand connection on follower's back, follower's legs flying...)

Not sure I like either of these styles as a whole. I like some elements within them, but as a whole, the first looked too disconnected for my tastes and the second set I thought was showing off the follower rather than dancing together to the music. :shrug: Good dancing to blues music, but not what I think on as "blues" dancing. My taste and perception of course.

I do not like those aspects either, but is there a clip you can point us at that does show exactly what blues dancing means to you?

[Gadget]

I do not like those aspects either, but is there a clip you can point us at that does show exactly what blues dancing means to you?

Not that I've found (yet...)

[Magic Hans]

Not everyone learns well in a university environment.

Quite true ... and I was one of them

But when people extrapolate from their experiences to make statements about all University learning - that I have a serious problem with.

Ok ... and I'm sorry if you have a problem with that (or me/my behaviour, for that matter) .... however, it has been my experience, and the dozen or so lecture halls that I have been in, really aren't set up (in my opinion) for much other than presentation [... not that lecturer's don't using other time outside of lectures more creatively ... I hope and trust that they do ... certainly the good ones]

The notion that really bothered me was the statement that teachers don't teach. Specifically, that teaching does not create a safe learning environment or communicate the new ideas.

With respect, I never said that, yer 'onor!! ... or don't think I did, and apologise if I gave that impression.

Maybe this comes down to semantics. For some, this [described] is a really great teacher. For me, it [as described] transcends teaching, and becomes (personal) leadership; showing what's possible, and urging those, who are willing, to take a step (if maybe, just a little one) into their unknown. Like, for example, displaying and describing a wonderful feast, and encouraging those (willing to learn) to eat. [Rather than telling them what to eat, with what, how, and in what order! .... in order to pass the 'eating' exam!!]

So I certainly could be accused of having a narrow definition of what a teacher is; narrow view?? Feel free to say so.

I find your pigeon-holing of "teaching" very insulting to teachers.

Ok ... feel free! I'm far more interested in criticising (insulting? maybe) the education system .... which (20 years ago) worked well for a small minority, adequately for a larger minority, poorly for more ... and, quite frankly, disfranchised a significant minority (again in my opinion). This, coming from someone who distinctly benefited from the system.

[straycat]

Not sure I like either of these styles as a whole. I like some elements within them, but as a whole, the first looked too disconnected for my tastes

Whoa. Stop right there...

Whether you like those clips or not - that's fine. That's up to you. Too wild, too out there, too all-kind-of-things... fine. That's all subjective.

But.

Disconnected? Are you completely off your rocker? Disconnected????? The connection those dancers are showing is amazing. It is total connection. The level of connection they are showing is something I can only dream of achieving. I mean - did you even watch it?

I mean - come on. DISCONNECTED???? I'm lost for words.

[bigdjiver]

Whoa. Stop right there...

Whether you like those clips or not - that's fine. That's up to you. Too wild, too out there, too all-kind-of-things... fine. That's all subjective.

But.

Disconnected? Are you completely off your rocker? Disconnected????? The connection those dancers are showing is amazing. It is total connection. The level of connection they are showing is something I can only dream of achieving. I mean - did you even watch it?

I mean - come on. DISCONNECTED???? I'm lost for words.

Bad choice of a word on my part, in this context. In the world outside connected means physically joined. For me blues is about bodily contact as well as spiritual. In that context a loose hand contact does not do it for me.

[Gadget]

I mean - come on. DISCONNECTED???? I'm lost for words.

To me blues should have an immersed connection and a magnetism that draws the partners together: the WCS dynamics and flow of the dance results in "open" spaces were the partners are 'repulsed' from each other. In WCS it's fine and even desirable: creates tension and makes the dance what it is - but what it's not is blues. (IMHO)

My take on Blues:
When the follower steps back, the lead shouldn't be stepping back at the same time. Even if they remaining in the same place, they should be 'wanting' to follow the follower or in the process of getting them back.
The further from each other the partner's get, then the more rapid the resulting movement bringing them together: the 'pull' of their partner gets greater with distance. The closer, then the more subtle and smaller the movements - less space to travel in the same time.

This is why I was saying "disconnected" - nothing to do with the lead and follow connection, more to do with the over all look. {As I said, a good dance. Good dancers. A good WCS dance to a blues track. It may be their version of 'blues dancing'. But it does not marry with mine.}

[straycat]

Bad choice of a word on my part, in this context.

Actually - I was responding to Gadget's use of the word.
That being said....

In the world outside connected means physically joined. For me blues is about bodily contact as well as spiritual. In that context a loose hand contact does not do it for me.

That's pretty much what I assumed from the word 'disconnected'. I'm guessing that this is a general statement, and that you're not suggesting they were just using this 'loose hand hold' thing in either of those clips? Because that would be a silly thing to say.

[straycat]

stuff

Profound apologies for my earlier outburst.
OK. Where to start, where to start....

WCS: Those clips are not WCS. They have nothing more in common with WCS than does any other connected partner dance. They don't even look like WCS.

Rocksteps: I'm afraid your 'take on blues' doesn't get off to a good start.

When the follower steps back, the lead shouldn't be stepping back at the same time.

Words fail me again on this one. I suspect you are taking a very narrow view of the dynamics and uses of a simultaneous back-step - so suffice to say that that simple-seeming step is the basis for some extremely powerful lead/follow/connection techniques, all of which have a major place in blues dancing. To say one shouldn't do it is simply cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Distance: One can lead extremely subtle and small movements regardless of physical separation. It is not necessary to be in close hold, or extremely close proximity.

Versions of Blues: these clips might not be your preferred style of blues, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like I say - it's very subjective, and there's several aspects of those clips that doesn't appeal to me either (if nothing else, like you, I do prefer things to look more subtle) But it's still blues dance.

[geoff332]

Ok ... and I'm sorry if you have a problem with that (or me/my behaviour, for that matter) .... however, it has been my experience, and the dozen or so lecture halls that I have been in, really aren't set up (in my opinion) for much other than presentation [... not that lecturer's don't using other time outside of lectures more creatively ... I hope and trust that they do ... certainly the good ones]

The issue lies in extrapolating from "the dozen or so lecture halls" to critiquing all universities. That is a very weak basis for extrapolation. Your experience is not everyone's experience. To claim that it is is a problem.

Personally, I've been in significantly more than a few dozen lecture halls. I could offer a a critique of the educational experience based on my (presumably wider) experience. But that would still be no more than my opinion dressed up as fact. Alternatively, I could offer an analysis of the educational system and offer some robust critiques of the flaws in the system. This would offer a lot more value, as it wouldn't be tied to my individual (and necessarily unique) experience. Done properly, it would have value for people that are not me.

With respect, I never said that, yer 'onor!! ... or don't think I did, and apologise if I gave that impression.

Actually, you did. Specifically:

She sounds absolutely fab!!! And illustrates, for me, a master (mistress?!) of communication ... in particular, setting the ground, and communicating new ideas that, with preparation, were 'safe' to try within the created environment (atmosphere).

The question is: Is this teaching (in the general classroom style)?

For some, this is teaching .... for me, it goes far beyond teaching.

You explicitly stated that all those things you listed were "far beyond teaching". If you didn't mean what you said, that's cool: but why write it in the first place?

Ok ... feel free! I'm far more interested in criticising (insulting? maybe) the education system .... which (20 years ago) worked well for a small minority, adequately for a larger minority, poorly for more ... and, quite frankly, disfranchised a significant minority (again in my opinion). This, coming from someone who distinctly benefited from the system.

You're not critiquing the educational system. You're using your experience of something - you've not previously stated what - as a critique of the concept of teaching. These are two very, very different things. On the basis of your critique, you're making generalised statements. Again, the foundation of the generalisation is flawed. I'm not suggesting that all teachers are perfect. However, your 'critique' is really a statement about your experience of the (as yet undefined) educational system, not about teaching. I can't challenge your experience of the system; but your extrapolation from that experience to the broader concepts I can, and do, challenge.

That's pretty much what I said in the first place: this attack on teaching says a great deal more about you - and your experiences - than it does about teaching.

To return to the original topic: advanced blues can certainly be taught, as can most advanced elements of dancing. This does not, however, mean that everyone will be able to learn.

[Magic Hans]

... I'm not suggesting that all teachers are perfect. However, your 'critique' is really a statement about your experience of the (as yet undefined) educational system, not about teaching. ...

With respect, of course it does!! How can I have an opinion of what is outside of my experience??

And some will (likely) resonate with my opinion and experience and some will not! Surely??

Clearly I am totally missed the point ... or at least the one you're raising. Maybe I'm just obtuse!

[Gadget]

WCS: Those clips are not WCS. They have nothing more in common with WCS than does any other connected partner dance. They don't even look like WCS.

That first one looked like WCS people dancing to a blues track to me: look at the footwork, the anchors they use, the floor-craft, the connection between them. I would be very surprised if I was wrong - I've not seen them do anything other than this clip or heard of them before.

Rocksteps: I'm afraid your 'take on blues' doesn't get off to a good start.

Words fail me again on this one. I suspect you are taking a very narrow view of the dynamics and uses of a simultaneous back-step - so suffice to say that that simple-seeming step is the basis for some extremely powerful lead/follow/connection techniques, all of which have a major place in blues dancing. To say one shouldn't do it is simply cutting your nose off to spite your face.

I am aware of rock-steps and simultaneous back steps and the dynamics they can play in dancing... specifically how they are used to create the tension and connection within WCS. I think it's a limitation to say that the major connection techniques in blues are based in this 'style' of connection.

Blues to me is about an attraction and connection with your partner and with the music - both pushing away from each other is the polar opposite to attraction: it's repulsion. It does have it's place within the blues dance form to provide contrast and 'charge': Solar flairs that escape the pull, but have to arc back into the intensity of the dance again. But I disagree that this form of connection has a "major" place in blues dancing; I doubt it has anything more than a "minor" place in it. I think the dance should be based upon a compression connection rather than one based on tension.

Distance: One can lead extremely subtle and small movements regardless of physical separation. It is not necessary to be in close hold, or extremely close proximity.

I agree 110%. But I don't agree that because a dance is danced at arm length with subtle movements it makes it blues dancing; the separation from your partner should be tainted by the longing to join together again - a symbiotic link.

Versions of Blues: these clips might not be your preferred style of blues, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like I say - it's very subjective, and there's several aspects of those clips that doesn't appeal to me either (if nothing else, like you, I do prefer things to look more subtle) But it's still blues dance.

But you could say that anyone dancing to blues music, (and dancing connected to the music) is dancing blues, no matter the dance form that they approach it within. {ballet, tango, salsa, WCS, ballroom, whatever} ... But the "blues" dance we normally refer to here is base upon MJ. And those clips are not.

As I said: good dances, good dancers - they are just applying what they know of their dance style to the emotive content associated with blues. I'm a MJ dancer - the predominant elements of WCS and ATango I see in those clips could be eliminated and make for a much better dance IMHO.

plug for a related thread/workshop of mine: Blues & Moves - all critique welcome

[NZ Monkey]

That first one looked like WCS people dancing to a blues track to me: look at the footwork, the anchors they use, the floor-craft, the connection between them. I would be very surprised if I was wrong - I've not seen them do anything other than this clip or heard of them before.

While I can see where you're coming from regarding some of the styling, there is no way that is WCS. It's possible they're WCSer's who are dancing Blues and are letting a lot of their WCS style to blend in, but I'm not convinced that's the case either.

The connection in WCS tends to be quite closly aligned with the use of the slot, which these two clearly aren't sticking to. Some things are pretty much universal of course so there are some similarities, but not enough for me to think there's a direct relationship. Likewise the floorcraft is nothing like WCS, I only saw one instance in the first half of the clip that might be considered an anchour step (or a triple step in an open position anyway) and while they do some pretty snazzy footwork, it's only the sliding effect they pull off that makes them look like some WCS dancers.

I am aware of rock-steps and simultaneous back steps and the dynamics they can play in dancing... specifically how they are used to create the tension and connection within WCS. I think it's a limitation to say that the major connection techniques in blues are based in this 'style' of connection.

Ummmmm, rock-steps are extremely rare in WCS. Simultaneously stepping back even more so unless you’re both travelling in the same direction. Both are very much the exception rather than the rule.

[straycat]

That first one looked like WCS people dancing to a blues track to me: look at the footwork, the anchors they use, the floor-craft, the connection between them. I would be very surprised if I was wrong - I've not seen them do anything other than this clip or heard of them before.

As NZ says - they may or may not do WCS (in fact, it's far more likely they do Lindy) - but they're not dancing it here. My other half, who knows such things, believes that much of what they're doing in that clip comes from contact improvisation and contemporary dance.

I am aware of rock-steps and simultaneous back steps and the dynamics they can play in dancing... specifically how they are used to create the tension and connection within WCS. I think it's a limitation to say that the major connection techniques in blues are based in this 'style' of connection.

Perhaps - if I'd said that. What I said was this:

...so suffice to say that that simple-seeming step is the basis for some extremely powerful lead/follow/connection techniques, all of which have a major place in blues dancing. To say one shouldn't do it is simply cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Which is a fary cry from saying that the major connection techniques in blues are based on WCS.

...I think the dance should be based upon a compression connection rather than one based on tension.

I disagree. We preach freedom of expression, musical interpretation, intensity and so on in blues. Let's not start limiting how we achieve those, hey? You use the tools and hand to dance the way you want to dance, yes?

I agree 110%. But I don't agree that because a dance is danced at arm length with subtle movements it makes it blues dancing; the separation from your partner should be tainted by the longing to join together again - a symbiotic link.

You know that in the States, they have ? And here you are worrying about distance from your partner... Suffice to say I disagree.

But you could say that anyone dancing to blues music, (and dancing connected to the music) is dancing blues, no matter the dance form that they approach it within. {ballet, tango, salsa, WCS, ballroom, whatever} ... But the "blues" dance we normally refer to here is base upon MJ.

Speak for yourself. I prefer to talk about blues - wherever it's derived from.

And those clips are not.

True - it's the other way around. MJ blues is based on the scene that evolved into what you see in those clips. Not that MJ blues has really gone in any new directions - if anything, it's just stayed behind.

As I said: good dances, good dancers - they are just applying what they know of their dance style to the emotive content associated with blues. I'm a MJ dancer - the predominant elements of WCS and ATango I see in those clips could be eliminated and make for a much better dance IMHO.

IMHO, good dances, AMAZING dancers, constantly pushing the boundaries instead of staying with the known and the safe. We may not all like the results, or find it all that esthetically pleasing, but like it or not, it's pure blues at a very very high level.

Anyway. I'm going to leave this thread alone for now. Gus asked for advanced blues - and to my mind, that (like the answers or not) that question's been answered. We seem to be getting deeper and deeper into the whole "what is / isn't blues" question now, and I've said my piece.

[Gadget]

True - it's the other way around. MJ blues is based on the scene that evolved into what you see in those clips. Not that MJ blues has really gone in any new directions - if anything, it's just stayed behind.

I think that is what Gus is trying to address ~ what makes the 'advanced blues dancer' advanced and how it can be passed on.

(not that I actually agree with the statement in the first place )

Anyway. I'm going to leave this thread alone for now. Gus asked for advanced blues - and to my mind, that (like the answers or not) that question's been answered. We seem to be getting deeper and deeper into the whole "what is / isn't blues" question now, and I've said my piece.

Don't you need to know what is/isn't "normal" blues before you can tag something as "advanced" blues?

I think that you are limiting the "blues dance" to a dance danced to blues music. You can dance in a "blues" style to other music genres; I think that if you put some latin or tango music on top of the second couple's dance you could mistake it for ATango. If you put some R&B music with a WCS beat behind it on top of the first one, you could mistake it for WCS. A blues dance to me would still look like a blues dance, no matter the music it's danced to.

[straycat]

Don't you need to know what is/isn't "normal" blues before you can tag something as "advanced" blues?

Well - yes. It's a good thing I already know this. If you mean "don't you need to know what Gus sees as 'normal' blues?" - well - possibly, but he's pulled his standard vanishing act, so I'm going with what I see.

I think that you are limiting the "blues dance" to a dance danced to blues music.

I think otherwise. And fyi - one of those clips: 'Blues Rising Class Demonstration 1/2' (is that the one you think is Tango?) is not being danced to a blues track.

I think that if you put some latin or tango music on top of the second couple's dance you could mistake it for ATango.

No - I'm not that ignorant.

If you put some R&B music with a WCS beat behind it on top of the first one, you could mistake it for WCS.

Ditto.

A blues dance to me would still look like a blues dance, no matter the music it's danced to.

Well - I think that if you want to take this any further, you'll have to do what bigdjiver suggested, and find us a clip of Gadget Blues to use as a reference. Otherwise, we're just going to keep going round in circles.

[ducasi]

OFF TOPIC

... and avoiding exploit site getoutofjlfree ...

Taking a look at the web site, it looks like someone's personal web site with youtube links and pictures of dance events.

Not sure what Google's problem with the site is. Maybe it does different things on Windows though. I visited it on my Mac.

[bigdjiver]

OFF TOPIC

Taking a look at the web site, it looks like someone's personal web site with youtube links and pictures of dance events.

Not sure what Google's problem with the site is. Maybe it does different things on Windows though. I visited it on my Mac.

It is someones site, and my AVG antivirus does not like it one bit using both IE and Firefox, warning of an "Exploit".

If anyone wants to understand what "Exploit" means, and has On Demand (Iplayer?) I recommend a look at last Sundays BBC programme "Click"

[MartinHarper]

That first one looked like WCS people dancing to a blues track to me: look at the footwork, the anchors they use, the floor-craft, the connection between them. I would be very surprised if I was wrong - I've not seen them do anything other than this clip or heard of them before.

In contrast with your assessment, I immediately thought that they were blues dancers, possibly with a background in Lindy Hop. I also thought that they were dancing blues to blues music. Like you I'd never heard of them, but I know how to use google, and found these brief bios:

http://www.gargleblasterblues.com/fo...hread.php?t=32
http://www.gargleblasterblues.com/fo...read.php?t=717

Briefly, Chris teaches Lindy Hop and Blues, while Dee teaches, organises and DJs Blues. So, consider yourself to be "very surprised". I'm not.

To me, things that make the clip look like blues rather than west coast include:
* grounded athletic posture (wide stance, bent knees, etc)
* predominantly not slotted
* predominantly closed position

I'd regard it as advanced blues because, especially considering it was allegedly a random dance at 2am, it uses difficult lead/follow to achieve a close connection to the music.