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Thread: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    A good dance teacher can teach lead and follow.
    I don't think that anyone would disagree with this. However, if you go back and actually read the original statement, it says (of course, if I'm reading it correctly ) that it can't be taught from a book!

    And I'm sort of inclined to agree with MH about this. Although I did pick up quite a lot of tips from reading quite a lot of stuff about lead and follow, which I then went out to try to put into practise. Certainly what I read changed the way I lead significantly (and hopefully for the better), although, it was putting the effort in to put it into practise that made what I read work.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Actually, music is rather easy to describe mathematically. And, yes, this does include blues music among other things. Most music follows a structured framework; music that you can dance to invariably is at the simpler ends of structure. This structure can rather be taught. Admitedly, not everyone can think in terms of this logical structure and it's not all there is to music and dancing, but there is an awful lot that can be taught in a simple, structured logical manner.
    Of course music is easy to describe mathematically. However, if all we did was dance in the same mathematical structured way, then dancing would (for me) quickly become very boring.

    For those people who are just starting out in their attempts to dance musically, then talking about the music in its structured form, is a start on that path, however, it is only a start. I'd agree that learning to feel the music, and dance to the music is much more then just a basic understanding of the simple structure of the beats and the bars.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    ...
    Actually, music is rather easy to describe mathematically. And, yes, this does include blues music among other things. Most music follows a structured framework; music that you can dance to invariably is at the simpler ends of structure. This structure can rather be taught. Admitedly, not everyone can think in terms of this logical structure and it's not all there is to music and dancing, but there is an awful lot that can be taught in a simple, structured logical manner....
    Yes, I fully agree. Music can be described, and played musically. However, I would argue that playing any music exactly as it has been written, to the precise timings, and notation creates a hollow soulless (if not unpleasant) rendition.

    It was only recently that a friend described how one particular piece of music, Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, is actually not a particularly difficult piece to play. However, when a huge difference some when it is played with at least some emotional attack.

    On closer analysis (as I do rarely, from time to time) at least some of the difference comes from almost imperceptible delays, pauses and sustains, to create phrasing, which, some may argue, makes all the difference.

    Certainly, when I listen to a great piece of orchestral music, I am far more focused on the emotion(s) that the music is creating, or trying to, than I am interested in any particular instrument or note played.

    The same does, IMO, for dancing, partner or otherwise. It can be danced (at one extreme) entirely mechanically, with no feeling or emotional drive and super clever complicated moves or (at the other extreme) ... incredibly simply, but with total emotional attachment.

    [I'd guess, mostly, somewhere in between]

    I would still argue that the emotional input into a dance cannot be textbook taught, and must be inspired/urged/suggested to be experienced to be learned.

    [I might, however, concede that should a logically predetermined phrasing be practiced when dancing, then maybe, that causal/logical exercise might, eventually, trigger the emotional input that might have driven it!]

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Strongly disagree. All this can be, should be, and is taught, if you simply know where to look.

    Many things are hard to teach. That doesn't mean they're impossible to teach.
    strongly disagree all you like lol

    if you were to teach the when and what it would end up being a choreographed routine to one piece of music

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    strongly disagree all you like lol

    if you were to teach the when and what it would end up being a choreographed routine to one piece of music
    If you teach as a choreography, sure. I can see why people would think this way as well, since most MJ lessons are taught effectively as choreographed routines (yes, one is encouraged to then mix'n'match, but that's the format of all standard classes) So I can understand that it's difficult to envisage other ways a class can work. But there's many other class formats to consider.

    I'll go out on a limb here. If you ask some of the people who have danced with me, I think that for the most part, they generally tell you that my musicality and musical interpretation skills are pretty good. I submit to you that these abilities didn't come naturally - I was lucky enough to be taught them. Yes, there was a lot of practise involved, but without the lessons I've had, I could not have even approached the point I've reached.

    And here's something else to try on for size.
    Dance is a very emotional thing. Think back to your first ever dance lesson - you may (or may not) have been one of the lucky confident ones, but I was not? I was very nervous. I was scared. My brain was full of "what if?" and "I can't" and other negative thoughts. It's a bad state of mind for dancing.

    Good teachers teaching a bunch of beginners knows this. They know that many of the class are not able to get themselves into a receptive frame of mind. So they help - they say reassuring things, they crack jokes, they try to be warm, friendly, welcoming - they are putting their class into the right frame of mind. They are teaching that frame of mind to a class, teaching that association, often before ever having demonstrated a dance step. They are teaching an emotional response.

    You might ask what this has to do with teaching musicality - and I submit that it has everything to do with it. There's a gorgeous Serge Gainsbourg track called 'Angoisse', which I first heard at a musicality workshop. When it was first played to us, I thought "that's nice" - nothing more. The teacher then analysed the track with us, replaying various sections and telling us what to listen out for. She then demonstrated various ways of interpreting those sections she'd hilighted. She got us to sit, close our eyes, listen and interpret with different body parts (head, hands, arms, feet, whatever we felt like). She got us to try specific things with a partner. She got us to make up new things with a partner.... and so on. She had everyone in a very open, receptive, almost trance-like state at times, and at the end of the process, I think all of us loved that track to distraction, and were listening to it, dancing to it , innovating to it in ways and with a creativity that we never anticipated when we first heard it.

    What I have described is, to my mind, the tip of the iceberg of what can be done.

    It can be taught, and it can be taught very well.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    There's a gorgeous Serge Gainsbourg track called 'Angoisse', which I first heard at a musicality workshop. When it was first played to us, I thought "that's nice" - nothing more. The teacher then analysed the track with us, replaying various sections and telling us what to listen out for. She then demonstrated various ways of interpreting those sections she'd hilighted. She got us to sit, close our eyes, listen and interpret with different body parts (head, hands, arms, feet, whatever we felt like). She got us to try specific things with a partner. She got us to make up new things with a partner.... and so on. She had everyone in a very open, receptive, almost trance-like state at times, and at the end of the process, I think all of us loved that track to distraction, and were listening to it, dancing to it , innovating to it in ways and with a creativity that we never anticipated when we first heard it.
    That's my idea of a musicality workshop.
    For me, musicality has 2 aspects:
    • hearing 'interesting' parts in the music and
    • being able to interpret that into lead and movement (or lack of it) within a dance, at the same time as the 'interesting' music happens
    It's the second bit that I find much harder, and it's not often taught outside of choreographed routines, even within workshops advertised as 'Musicality'.

    Was it an MJ workshop or another style? (If it was MJ then it's exactly the sort of workshop I'd like to do.)
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    That's my idea of a musicality workshop.
    For me, musicality has 2 aspects:
    • hearing 'interesting' parts in the music and
    • being able to interpret that into lead and movement (or lack of it) within a dance, at the same time as the 'interesting' music happens
    It's the second bit that I find much harder, and it's not often taught outside of choreographed routines, even within workshops advertised as 'Musicality'.

    Was it an MJ workshop or another style? (If it was MJ then it's exactly the sort of workshop I'd like to do.)
    Blues for lindy hoppers, but a good MJer would have been fine with most of it. It was a two-day affair - the part I described was repeated with more than one track, and only represented a small section of the event. Taught by Rena, who was nothing short of inspiring, and about 2 1/2 years ago, IIRC.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    teaching musicality - There's a gorgeous Serge Gainsbourg track called 'Angoisse', which I first heard at a musicality workshop. When it was first played to us, I thought "that's nice" - nothing more. The teacher then analysed the track with us, replaying various sections and telling us what to listen out for. She then demonstrated various ways of interpreting those sections she'd hilighted. She got us to sit, close our eyes, listen and interpret .....

    with different body parts (head, hands, arms, feet, whatever we felt like).....

    She got us to try specific things with a partner.She got us to make up new things with a partner.... and so on.

    She had everyone listening to it, dancing to it , innovating to it in ways and with a creativity that we never anticipated when we first heard it.
    I think in the quote there are four areas that I would like to learn more about in the context of MJ blues:
    - musicality, with its various sub headings
    - personal body movements
    - lead and follow techniques
    - applying these to my dancing

    As far as teaching advanced blues it depends what way you want to go.

    This area of close dancing as far as I can see is up for grabs in most dance forms where it exists.

    There seems to be alot of experimental cross over at the moment between MJ, Tango, Salsa, Swing and Balboa and I am sure there are other partner dances that can be thrown into the mix as well.

    Many dance forms at one end are now strivng for that connection you sometimes get in blues. Where the lead is the music and the dancing couple communicate there desired musical interpretations as sublimily as possible, allowing their bodies fuse and become another instrument within the orchestral interpretatation of the music, in a free of pattern context.

    I think it is this joint instantaneous choreography that gives this type of dancing the magic many of us feel and desire. This seems to be an area that freefrom, close embrace dances such as Tango and MJ are looking for a way forward. If we desired choreographed dancing this already exists in the traditional teaching of partner dancing.

    I think the emphesis a class will put into these areas, will depend on the teacher and the way that teacher wants to develope things. At the end of the day the best teachers will produce the best dancers and their methods and content will become the standard.

    I think we are very much at a developemental stage in this type of dance and teachers interested in developing it further are going to have to figure out what techniques they will use to aid their pupils and then how to encourage their pupils to apply the techiques chosen to achieve the desired aims.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    ...She then demonstrated various ways of interpreting those sections she'd hilighted. She got us to sit, close our eyes, listen and interpret with different body parts (head, hands, arms, feet, whatever we felt like). She got us to try specific things with a partner. She got us to make up new things with a partner.... and so on. She had everyone in a very open, receptive, almost trance-like state at times, and at the end of the process, I think all of us loved that track to distraction, and were listening to it, dancing to it , innovating to it in ways and with a creativity that we never anticipated when we first heard it.
    ...
    She sounds absolutely fab!!! And illustrates, for me, a master (mistress?!) of communication ... in particular, setting the ground, and communicating new ideas that, with preparation, were 'safe' to try within the created environment (atmosphere).

    The question is: Is this teaching (in the general classroom style)?

    For some, this is teaching .... for me, it goes far beyond teaching.

    What element of teaching is to 'optimize the mind state of those wanting to learn, by creating a relaxed, safe space through suggestion, humour and encouragement?

    What element then demonstrates some of the principles, in order to encourage modelling and show how good an end result might look/feel like?

    What element then encourages anyone (who is happy and willing) to then creatively play, to then learn what works for them (and not necessarily the teacher or anyone else for that matter) in the well created safe space?

    Maybe this comes down to semantics. For some, this is a really great teacher. For me, it transcends teaching, and becomes (personal) leadership; showing what's possible, and urging those, who are willing, to take a step (if maybe, just a little one) into their unknown. Like, for example, displaying and describing a wonderful feast, and encouraging those (willing to learn) to eat. [Rather than telling them what to eat, with what, how, and in what order! .... in order to pass the 'eating' exam!!]

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    ... Although I did pick up quite a lot of tips from reading quite a lot of stuff about lead and follow, which I then went out to try to put into practise. Certainly what I read changed the way I lead significantly (and hopefully for the better), although, it was putting the effort in to put it into practise that made what I read work.
    What resources did you read from? Always looking to learn more and find better ways to lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    On closer analysis (as I do rarely, from time to time) at least some of the difference comes from almost imperceptible delays, pauses and sustains, to create phrasing, which, some may argue, makes all the difference.
    That's what I said at the start: it's not about being in a specific position to coincide with a specific time in the music - it's about the timeing of how you get to that position from the last one. The space between counts/beats is where the "advanced" dancers become advanced. Anyone can move from A to B to C. Anyone can teach and be taught A, B and C with relative ease. Teaching and learning the "to"'s first needs the framework of A, B and C where the danger then is that "A to B" is ingrained rather than just the "to"... but I suppose it's a bit like learning a move ("A to B to C") rather than the individual movements that make up the move ("A" and "B" and "C")

    Perhaps that's the progression levels:
    - Beginners concentrate on joining "A to B to C" with "D to E to F"
    - Intermediates concentrate on joining "A" to "B" to "C"
    - Advanced concentrate on "to"
    ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I think in the quote there are four areas that I would like to learn more about in the context of MJ blues:
    - musicality, with its various sub headings
    - personal body movements
    - lead and follow techniques
    - applying these to my dancing
    I think that these things are what makes any dance. And I am fairly sure that learning the first three without the last one embedded in the learning process is just about pointless.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Blues for lindy hoppers, but a good MJer would have been fine with most of it. It was a two-day affair - the part I described was repeated with more than one track, and only represented a small section of the event. Taught by Rena, who was nothing short of inspiring, and about 2 1/2 years ago, IIRC.
    I treasure my Le Jive championship videos. One features Rena and Partner winning, and starring in, the "Dance with a stranger" competition. Unsurprisingly, for anyone who knows her, they would be one of the clips I would use to promote MJ. It was several valuable lessons just watching her in action.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    The question is: Is this teaching (in the general classroom style)?
    Yes. Heck, the first teachers I met who encouraged me to learn through creative play were in kindergarten. All these things are a normal part of teaching, as used by normal teachers in normal schools throughout the country.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Yes. Heck, the first teachers I met who encouraged me to learn through creative play were in kindergarten. All these things are a normal part of teaching, as used by normal teachers in normal schools throughout the country.
    Errrrm .... yes, and once into adulthood?? How much creative play did University Lecturers encourage?? (the other extreme!!)

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    Errrrm .... yes, and once into adulthood?? How much creative play did University Lecturers encourage?? (the other extreme!!)
    A lot of PhD projects are play, in that they have no definte practical application envisaged. There are a few Silicon Valley companies, and others, that encourage their techies to "play". The first microprocessor, the 4004, came from a "play" project.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    Errrrm .... yes, and once into adulthood?? How much creative play did University Lecturers encourage?? (the other extreme!!)
    Safe to say that you have - in terms of relevance - completely lost me. In the unlikely event that the answer here was 'None whatsoever', where were you taking this?

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I'll go out on a limb here. If you ask some of the people who have danced with me, I think that for the most part, they generally tell you that my musicality and musical interpretation skills are pretty good. I submit to you that these abilities didn't come naturally - I was lucky enough to be taught them. Yes, there was a lot of practise involved, but without the lessons I've had, I could not have even approached the point I've reached.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~snip~~~~~~~~~

    What I have described is, to my mind, the tip of the iceberg of what can be done.

    It can be taught, and it can be taught very well.
    sorry stray i think we misunderstood what each other were saying
    I agree wholeheartedly that musicality can be and i would almost go to say has to be taught

    i think i said in an earlier post that i was taught it in a workshop by adam nathanson (cerocmetro on here)
    he taught us to listen and then how to dance to various pieces of music
    wholly due to him i now always listen to music differently

    what i was saying is that you cannot be taught application as that is how use the knowledge that you have learned
    In the case of dancing its about what you do in every circumstance of every piece of music and this has to come from instinct once you understand the basic concept

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I'll go out on a limb here. If you ask some of the people who have danced with me, I think that for the most part, they generally tell you that my musicality and musical interpretation skills are pretty good. I submit to you that these abilities didn't come naturally - I was lucky enough to be taught them. Yes, there was a lot of practise involved, but without the lessons I've had, I could not have even approached the point I've reached.
    Same here. And much of the musicality I know has been learnt. It has been learnt by being taught bysome very good teachers. Amir, for example, is very good at this. He is a well trained dancer with a good ear for music. He has a great technical understanding of music as well as being a great dancer, and this makes him very good at teaching musicality to a very high level. And there are plenty of other dance teachers out there with similar skills.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    For me, musicality has 2 aspects:
    • hearing 'interesting' parts in the music and
    • being able to interpret that into lead and movement (or lack of it) within a dance, at the same time as the 'interesting' music happens
    I would add a third (which is very important):
    • Understanding musical structure so that you know when the 'interesting' parts of the music are coming up.
    Virtually everyone can spot a break or change in the music once it's happened. The trick is to spot it before it happens. Some people do this intuitively very well (I consider them the dancing analogy to people who can play music by ear). But this can be taught by teaching people the structure of music. My experience is that the best people at doing this have both - the natural talent and knowledge of the mechanics of music. Much the same as the best musicians I know combine a lot of natural talent with a lot of training and practice.

    I'd also extend your first point. Most modern music has a couple of layers (some considerably more). One aspect of musicality is to be able to spot those different layers. You can vary the dance to pick up those layers. Most people only consciously hear a one layer at a time. A minority of people have the natural ear to pick up multiple threads at once, but virtually everyone can be taught how to do this.
    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    what i was saying is that you cannot be taught application as that is how use the knowledge that you have learned
    In the case of dancing its about what you do in every circumstance of every piece of music and this has to come from instinct once you understand the basic concept
    Even that statement, I disagree with (although I'm less sure that we're not just arguing details). You can certainly be taught ways to spot when changes in music are going to come up. You can be taught to hear the various layers in music. You can be taught variations on moves and movements that are needed in the dancing. You can be taught things like syncopation and contrast. In short, there are very few elements of musicality that can't be taught, including how to put it all together. The only element you can't be taught is passion: the emotional response to music (mostly because there isn't a "correct" emotional response). But you can certainly be taught a lot of things you can do with whatever response you do have. Great dancers, like great musicians, marry the passion and the science. Musicality is probably the place where this is most obvious, but I think too many people exclude the science - and technique - of musicality in favour of the passion. I strongly believe the best dancers have both. Moreover, I believe the difference between an advanced and a beginner dancer is not their passion, but their ability to express that passion through their knowledge of the science.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    For some, this is teaching .... for me, it goes far beyond teaching.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    Errrrm .... yes, and once into adulthood?? How much creative play did University Lecturers encourage?? (the other extreme!!)
    I would suggest that you have an extremely narrow view of teaching which has a great deal more to do with your biases and prejudices than it does with teaching and learning. Good teachers - including at University level - are in no way constrained by your conception of what teaching is and go far, far beyond it. I find your pigeon-holing of "teaching" very insulting to teachers.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    A lot of PhD projects are play, in that they have no definte practical application envisaged. There are a few Silicon Valley companies, and others, that encourage their techies to "play". The first microprocessor, the 4004, came from a "play" project.
    A Ph.D is an intense piece of work. You spend years focused on a single project (in the US, it's typically a couple of years; in Commonwealth universities, it's more like 4-5 years). One does not spend that amount of time focused on a single activity without significant passion and energy being committed. This translates into many Ph.Ds involving themselves completely in their Ph.D. For some, this becomes playing with ideas. For others, it's pursing one idea with highly unusual dedication. Claiming that University lecturers do not allow play is, as you point out, just wrong.

    You mention silicon valley companies. The best current example is probably Google. They have the 20 percent rule. This means that their engineering staff are allowed (and even expected) to use 20 percent of their time to work on projects that interest them.

    Again, the strong implication that Universities are so constrained is both misinformed and insulting (one I often hear). It shows a view of academia is that is both narrow and prejudged. It says much more about the person making the implication than it does about universities, education and teaching.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Again, the strong implication that Universities are so constrained is both misinformed and insulting (one I often hear). It shows a view of academia is that is both narrow and prejudged. It says much more about the person making the implication than it does about universities, education and teaching.
    If you often hear this opinion, then maybe it's because that is the experience of a lot of people who voice this opinion. And, if that is their experience of the way that they were taught at university, then maybe it is misinformed and insulting to brush of their experiences in quite such an offhand and dismissive manner?

    And maybe it actually says less about the person making the implication than you think, and more about the teaching that they have received. In which case, I would submit they are totally entitled to that opinion, and it is maybe the universities (in those areas) that need to change.

    I'm sure that there are great examples, both in education, and also in industry, that do not constrain their students and employees in such a manner as might have been suggested.

    I would also like to point out that Magic Hans didn't state as a fact (although, that might have been the way you took it from his phrasing of the question) that universities don't encourage play. Rather he actually asked a question - "How much creative play did University Lecturers encourage??". To jump on him quite so hard for this, calling him uninformed and insulting might be a little bit of an extreme reaction.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    If you often hear this opinion, then maybe it's because that is the experience of a lot of people who voice this opinion. And, if that is their experience of the way that they were taught at university, then maybe it is misinformed and insulting to brush of their experiences in quite such an offhand and dismissive manner?
    Not everyone learns well in a university environment. This can be for a variety of reasons and is no cause for judgement. But when people extrapolate from their experiences to make statements about all University learning - that I have a serious problem with.

    The notion that really bothered me was the statement that teachers don't teach. Specifically, that teaching does not create a safe learning environment or communicate the new ideas.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    I would also like to point out that Magic Hans didn't state as a fact (although, that might have been the way you took it from his phrasing of the question) that universities don't encourage play. Rather he actually asked a question - "How much creative play did University Lecturers encourage??". To jump on him quite so hard for this, calling him uninformed and insulting might be a little bit of an extreme reaction.
    Defend Magic Hans all you like. Personally, I see straight through people who phrase their ideas as questions as nothing more than a piece of rhetoric. I treat rhetorical questions as statements of fact.

    I could have phrased all my statements as questions. However, I prefer not to hide behind that particular device when disagreeing with someone.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    The concept, new to me, of link between breathing and connection has taken me off on a voyage of discovery.

    http://www.tangospring.com/tangoBlogTopicConnection.htm

    http://dancingsoul.typepad.com/danci...breathing.html

    http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum..._breathing.htm

    A 2007 event "Blues rising" had a workshop on breathing. The teacher can be seen practising the sort of blues I aspire to:



    following links, and avoiding exploit site getoutofjlfree

    these are sometimes too vigorous for "blues" in my way of thinking




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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    A 2007 event "Blues rising" had a workshop on breathing. The teacher can be seen practising the sort of blues I aspire to:

    This is more WCS than Blues in my opinion: just so happens to be danced to a "blues" track.
    (whips, skippity footwork, open 'anchor' that they default to...)

    [/quote]And these look to have more influence from ATango in my mind, again danced to a blues track.
    (Embrace hold, follower having torso connection with the lead, lead's hand connection on follower's back, follower's legs flying...)

    Not sure I like either of these styles as a whole. I like some elements within them, but as a whole, the first looked too disconnected for my tastes and the second set I thought was showing off the follower rather than dancing together to the music. :shrug: Good dancing to blues music, but not what I think on as "blues" dancing. My taste and perception of course.

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