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Thread: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    If isn't blues.... with all due respect to you... perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as what it actually is?
    Myself, I'd say that I've seen very virtually no blues dancers in the UK to touch him. ...
    For me there is far too much action and separation in Lucky's style as I have seen it in a few clips.

    The best write-up I have seen is here:
    http://www.blues-dance.com/aboutbluesdance/

    You mean "Blues" is a dance? Yes, it is. In fact, it is an entire family of several dances (such as the "Slow Drag" and the "Fishtail") that are aesthetically, culturally and musically connected.
    I think we should be talking about "blues dance ________ style".

    About 60% of this matches the style I would be aiming for. It is no surprise that they dance Tango too.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    ... having just done lucky's micro blues masterclass at storm i can report it was the most intense lesson in connection i have ever had the pleasure to attend
    the feeling of euphoria and exhaustion when you finaly get this is amazing
    although i have never done meditation i would think its very similar ...



    ... as with all blues it isnt about lead follow or moves
    its about connection from the heart between two people and the music which starts by connecting your breath
    as has been said several times on this forum its a conversation this surely starts with breath and the breath creates the momentum for the ultra small movements involved in micro blues
    This is one class that I really would have liked to attend. There seems to be a path in tne maze I have not discovered.

    BTW the sales course on video I have just ploughed through says "Learn" is a bad word, "Discover" and "amazing" are good ones.

    "Discover this amazing new dance ..." ( dances?)

    stop the presses :
    Last edited by bigdjiver; 10th-March-2009 at 04:11 AM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    In my book no!

    On the proviso that advanced means sophisticated and/or complex moves, blues, to my mind, is about doing less (physically). [Although it can get very intense .... due to strong intention]

    Learning to do less is not advanced ... not in my book at any rate. As someone else has said ... it's more about listening (to music and each other) than anything technical.
    You might want to try a new book?
    In the context of blues, when we talk about doing 'less', what we generally mean is less pre-defined moves, less flashy stuff, less big moves, less overt effort. What this translates as, is 'be more subtle' - and there's a lot of things one needs more of, especially on the connection side of things. While there may, to the casual onlooker, appear to be a great deal less happening in an advanced blues dance, looks can be deceiving - there is be a tremendous amount of very subtle stuff going on that may well only be obvious to the dancers themselves.

    If you think of blues dance as dancing slowly & not doing very much.... well - all I can say is that you're very much missing out.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I can't be bring myself to trawl Gargle Blaster Blues again, but from previous readings, I'm pretty sure the "authenticity gurus" there would say micro blues should be considered the spawn of the devil.
    Somewhat. From the Ceroc plague thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by dangermouse
    I have found the inward focus thing to be a total cop-out and used to justify things like "micro-blues." I always challenge people who feel "micro-blues" to be a great thing to try and put all that feeling and intense-ness into dancing that moves out of the 2' box they have put it in. To try and make that meaningful 2" weight shift a meaningful 24" step. Time and time again, what they realize is that it is their mindset not the moves that is the "problem."

    When moves and the movement/technique behind them click just right they look great, but you have to have that same kind of intensity of movement and openness to communication/connection at the macro that they have for the micro.

    Macro is harder. Micro-Blues is training wheels.
    Mind you, learning to lead and follow the small movements in Balboa, I feel like training wheels would help.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Somewhat. From the Ceroc plague thread:
    [dangermouse quote]
    Got a HarperLink? I've tried to find the original post you took that from, but without success - I'd be interested in the original context.

    Without that context, I'd have to say that he (she?) appears to be entirely missing the point.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Got a HarperLink? I've tried to find the original post you took that from, but without success - I'd be interested in the original context.
    http://www.gargleblasterblues.com/fo...&postcount=112 (near the end)

    [Google works far better for this than the vBulletin search)

    Without that context, I'd have to say that he (she?) appears to be entirely missing the point.
    You're a brave man, saying that about Dangermouse (Damon) when it comes to blues.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    ...

    If you think of blues dance as dancing slowly & not doing very much.... well - all I can say is that you're very much missing out.
    I agree ... which is why I contrast the social dance to the show dance.

    Of course stuff gets easier and better with practice/experience ... and this is where, IMO 'social' blues lives .... it is an experiential dance rather than a technique dance.

    From my point of view, technique, steps, mechanics can be described in distinct terms and taught. To a degree, leading and following can be described (although it is primarily experiential) but not effectively in discreet, logical terms .... as it is far more of a sensual (involving senses and feeling), emotional experience/exercise, and must be experienced to be learned .... it can't be learned (effectively) from a book. Although one or two discreet and helpful tips might be.

    However, learning to 'feel' the music, can only be urged/suggested/inspired ... and so learned. It cannot be taught in my understanding of that term. It steps into the altered mind state/meditation/hyptonism type of realm. I view blues as a form of dynamic (ie non stationary) meditation.

    [ ... and, what's more, I defy anyone to prove otherwise!!! At least to my satisfaction .... which might be difficult ... cos I'll refuse to listen anyway!!!]

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    I agree ... which is why I contrast the social dance to the show dance.
    Would you mind explaining that? I'm not completely sure what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    Of course stuff gets easier and better with practice/experience ... and this is where, IMO 'social' blues lives .... it is an experiential dance rather than a technique dance.
    I agree that blues dance can be viewed as a 'experimental', but I'd also say it's very much a technique dance. "Technique dance rather than a move dance" is the way I'd describe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    From my point of view, technique, steps, mechanics can be described in distinct terms and taught.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    To a degree, leading and following can be described (although it is primarily experiential) but not effectively in discreet, logical terms
    Having attended workshops solely dedicated to lead / follow / connection, and had private lessons on the same, I think it's safe to say I strongly disagree. It can be described and taught logically and effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    However, learning to 'feel' the music, can only be urged/suggested/inspired ... and so learned. It cannot be taught in my understanding of that term. It steps into the altered mind state/meditation/hyptonism type of realm.
    Strongly disagree. It's a very difficult area to teach, some people take to it far more naturally than others, and it takes a lot of practice, but it can be taught, and is taught. How do I know this? It was taught to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    and, what's more, I defy anyone to prove otherwise!!! At least to my satisfaction .... which might be difficult ... cos I'll refuse to listen anyway!!!]
    Well - thank you for your honesty - that saves a load of time. I'm not going try to convince you. I'll settle for stating it as fact

  9. #29
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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    You're a brave man, saying that about Dangermouse (Damon) when it comes to blues.
    Only if I'd known who it was. Missed the Gargleblaster reference, so I was looking in bemusement at this forum.

    Thanks - that helps a lot. The quote works a great deal better in context. My only vague objection to it now lies along similar lines to Martin's - there's nowt wrong with training wheels
    Last edited by straycat; 11th-March-2009 at 12:58 PM.

  10. #30
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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    it is an experiential dance rather than a technique dance.
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    . "Technique dance rather than a move dance" is the way I'd describe it.
    this is where i agree wholeheartedly with you straycat
    after learning to dance this at storm 2008 3:15am in the blues room with kel warminster (yes its all her fault) i described it as a concept rather than moves
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post

    However, learning to 'feel' the music, can only be urged/suggested/inspired ... and so learned. It cannot be taught in my understanding of that term. It steps into the altered mind state/meditation/hyptonism type of realm. I view blues as a form of dynamic (ie non stationary) meditation.
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Strongly disagree. It's a very difficult area to teach, some people take to it far more naturally than others, and it takes a lot of practice, but it can be taught, and is taught. How do I know this? It was taught to me.
    Again completely correct stray and completely wrong hans

    Next time he does one over her get yourself to adam nathansons (cerocmetro on the forum) musicality workshop
    its completely inspirational
    You will learn to listen to music on a completely different plain and by the end of the four hours the music will tell you what moves to do and when to do them

    and for connection you need to get to one of lucky skillens micro blues classes a whole hour on learning how your own and your partners body moves mainly by your breath just awesome stuff

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    ... and for connection you need to get to one of lucky skillens micro blues classes a whole hour on learning how your own and your partners body moves mainly by your breath just awesome stuff
    I would have thought that ANY dance musicality or ANY dance connection learning could be applied to blues. At our tango lesson last night, we were connecting our breathing with our steps (within phrasing, where our bodies are gently moving slightly closer to the ground through the middle of the phrase, rising slightly at the start and the end).

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Feelingpink View Post
    I would have thought that ANY dance musicality or ANY dance connection learning could be applied to blues. At our tango lesson last night, we were connecting our breathing with our steps (within phrasing, where our bodies are gently moving slightly closer to the ground through the middle of the phrase, rising slightly at the start and the end).
    this of course is correct i was just mentioning two of the well respected teachers in these subjects which i have attended
    i am not saying they are the only ones
    just that both workshops were absolutely incredible and prove magic hans wrong and straycat right

  13. #33
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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Gordon Benett do we, or do we not over analyse things on this Forum?

    Blues to me is connecting with your partner, doesn't matter about the moves, just let the music flow thro you both and get stuck in there boys. Who is right and who is wrong? Who gives a rats ar*e whatever works for you, use it and abuse it. Bit short, sharp and sh1t hot but you get my drift, get in close and enjoy yourselves.

    DTS XXX XXX

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Gordon Benett do we, or do we not over analyse things on this Forum?
    You know... I honestly believe we do not.
    Last edited by straycat; 11th-March-2009 at 09:13 PM.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    I think that people have over-simplified 'micro-blues' to focus solely on the connection between partners. Yes it's intense, but as has been mentioned before, you can apply the same intensity and focus on your partner's movements to any style. It's easier to apply it and concentrate on it within micro-blues because there is less distraction of momentum and location of your partner to contend with. What Lucky applies to a close hold, Franck applies to a more open hold.

    What micro-blues does is apply a level of subtlety that is lost on bigger moves, even within regular blues. The timing and nuances that can be led are lost when you have to over-come momentum and movement. The connection is more an immersion where the lead and feedback from the follower is felt through the whole body.

    ... but I don't think I've ever been 'taught' micro-blues: I've been barely standing at 3am on weekenders and letting the music fill me and take my partner with me. I've lightened my connection and felt my partner's movement through every point of contact with them from head to toe. I've created patterns within the music and followed my partner's patterns. I've learned from my own movements and dancing, but applied some of the techniques that have been gleamed from the likes of Franck and Lucky: I can see where MHans is coming from - the technique can be taught/learned, but the 'soul' and application of the technique have to come from within the dancer.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    the technique can be taught/learned, but the 'soul' and application of the technique have to come from within the dancer.

    i could not agree with you more

    as with everything that can be taught application is what you want to do with it therefore cannot be taught

    In other words you can teach someone how to apply something but not what to apply and when

    The masterclass was about connection and shown in a way i have never thought of before even though i have been dancing blues for over a year now and am always getting compliments on my dancing from all sorts of people

    i dont and never have thought of myself as a great dancer but i can normally give a partner a good time on the dance floor
    to be honest thats all that really matters to me

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    as with everything that can be taught application is what you want to do with it therefore cannot be taught

    In other words you can teach someone how to apply something but not what to apply and when
    Strongly disagree. All this can be, should be, and is taught, if you simply know where to look.

    Many things are hard to teach. That doesn't mean they're impossible to teach.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Many things are hard to teach. That doesn't mean they're impossible to teach.


    People too...

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The timing and nuances that can be led are lost when you have to over-come momentum and movement.
    I would say instead, it is hard to lead two things at once, whether that be two "micro" things, two "macro" things, or one of each.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as 'Advanced Blues'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    From my point of view, technique, steps, mechanics can be described in distinct terms and taught.
    True. And they're generally easy to teach.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    To a degree, leading and following can be described (although it is primarily experiential) but not effectively in discreet, logical terms .... as it is far more of a sensual (involving senses and feeling), emotional experience/exercise, and must be experienced to be learned .... it can't be learned (effectively) from a book. Although one or two discreet and helpful tips might be.
    A good dance teacher can teach lead and follow. If you've never found anyone able to teach it, I would look closely at the quality of teachers. I've certainly been taught lead and follow very clearly, following a series of discreet, logical steps. You do need practice and experience as well, but to suggest it's hard to teach, beyond a few tips, is a very, very narrow view of dancing. I'd happily admit that regular ceroc classes in England do very little to teach lead and follow; but that's a peculiarity of ceroc classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    However, learning to 'feel' the music, can only be urged/suggested/inspired ... and so learned. It cannot be taught in my understanding of that term. It steps into the altered mind state/meditation/hyptonism type of realm.
    Actually, music is rather easy to describe mathematically. And, yes, this does include blues music among other things. Most music follows a structured framework; music that you can dance to invariably is at the simpler ends of structure. This structure can rather be taught. Admitedly, not everyone can think in terms of this logical structure and it's not all there is to music and dancing, but there is an awful lot that can be taught in a simple, structured logical manner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    [ ... and, what's more, I defy anyone to prove otherwise!!! At least to my satisfaction .... which might be difficult ... cos I'll refuse to listen anyway!!!]
    Proof, when talking subjectively lies in the eyes of the beholder. If you don't want to be disproven, you won't be to your satisfaction. Not a challenge worth accepting.

    I suspect much of the issue that I've seen in this thread lies in the conflation of 'moves' with 'dancing'. In most forms of dance I know, moves are technique for learning and expression. But to think they are dancing is equivalent to confusing eggs and a little milk with an omelet.

    I don't have a lot of experience with "blues dancing". But what I do have suggests that it's more about a style of movement than a particular set of moves. The core of the style is connection and musical interpretation. Both of these things can be taught at levels varying from beginner to extraordinarily advanced. I've never met a dancer who couldn't do with some improvement on both counts.

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