View Poll Results: Dips and Drops, Do You or Don't You Ask

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  • I'm a lead and I always ask before I dip/drop

    12 28.57%
  • I'm a lead and I make an educated guess before I dip/drop rather than asking

    9 21.43%
  • I'm a follow and I expect always to be asked before I am dipped/dropped

    17 40.48%
  • I'm a follow and I am am happy to be dipped/dropped without asking

    4 9.52%
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Thread: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

  1. #61
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I’m sure I don’t know that move specifically, but my immediate reaction is to think that if you’re getting bruises from dips or drops, you’re probably not supporting your own weight enough and/or entering too quickly.
    It's the move where the guy stands behind the follow with an arm under each of hers, supporting her weight as she drops back. For a variety of reasons, I find it's a bit of an "outlier" as far as drops go - I don't think you would normally have the lady support much of her own weight, for example.

    …If you’re doing some sort of dip with your back arched, I’d expect you to be taking control of the depth and speed yourself, so if your back is put out it was probably your own doing.
    If it's the move I'm thinking of, it is again an outlier - the Ceroc name is the backbreaker, and that's not entirely without reason. It would not look totally out of place in a WWE broadcast! (I actually don't know it well - it's the one drop I've never felt comfortable leading - I always feel I'm pulling the girl in a way she doesn't like).

    Even in a layback, which is a relatively compromised position as far as dips go, the girl can take a surprising amount of her own weight by coming up on her toes and pushing her pelvis forward.
    This is a slightly different rant, but no amount of technique on the lady's part will protect her when the man decides "you haven't gone far enough" and pushes to get her back to bend further.

    (And in the case of one guy, if he does it to Bryony again, no amount of technique will protect him, if you get my drift...)

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    AM prepared to apologise absolutely if I'm wrong, but....

    Is there a young Mike Ellard in this video?!??!?!?!?!?!!?!
    And Christine Keeble, and the man himself, Michel Ange Lau. I am sorry but I don't know any others.

  3. #63
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Taken from the rules in our New Dancers booklet (given to all new people through the door):- Drops, Large dips and Aerials are not permitted on the dance floor withour prior permission from a Smooth jive instructor or attendance at a Smooth Jive Dips and Drops workshop. This helps prevent injuries and provides your dance partner with a nicer dance. If you are not sure what is and isn't permitted, please ask.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    As above, you can use them if you go to a workshop as a major part of the workshop is about safty and floor craft
    now this makes a huge amount of sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Nope just ban the signal that goes with it. It's pointless, looks stupid and results in men karate choping their partners. I had an acident with a man spin once a few weeks in to dancing. Done the signal justas an old geezer was doing some kind of duck behind me. I karate chopped him on tha back of the neck and he collapsed. I thought I had killed him.
    oops

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    By writing it in the rules and having a word with anyone seen doing it.
    yeah but this doesnt always work as some people completely ignore the rules (which i suppose is why they are dangerous dancers in the first place)

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    now this makes a huge amount of sense


    oops


    yeah but this doesnt always work as some people completely ignore the rules (which i suppose is why they are dangerous dancers in the first place)
    Have only had it happen once.

    We have big plasma TV screens in our venue which I can use to play vids, put up the lesson moves etc. Having the words " Drops do not make you look cool, please read the rules in your introduction booklet " scrolling a cross done the trick.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Have only had it happen once.

    We have big plasma TV screens in our venue which I can use to play vids, put up the lesson moves etc. Having the words " Drops do not make you look cool, please read the rules in your introduction booklet " scrolling a cross done the trick.
    a record and replay function could change the world of dancing ...

    subtitles: Our next style workshop/ our style DVD ...

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    AM prepared to apologise absolutely if I'm wrong, but....

    Is there a young Mike Ellard in this video?!??!?!?!?!?!!?!
    I also spotted a young Roger Chin

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I lead the follower into the position for a dip and provide a stable, braced frame with an awareness of them through the connection. But I do not actually lead them into the dip: I wait for them to initiate it and provide support & stability.
    This is the best way.

    If a lead does this to me, I will go with it because he has me in a very comfortable position, plus I have the option to refuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    I also spotted a young Roger Chin
    Where?

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post


    I was tipped upside down in an ariel at ISH. He didn't ask, but he did ask me the second time, I said yes. It was like wheee....

    ...remember pointing my toes at the ceiling!
    I bet I know who that was...if so it was exactly the same for me - but he DID know what he was doing. And I loved it!

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I’m sure I don’t know that move specifically, but my immediate reaction is to think that if you’re getting bruises from dips or drops, you’re probably not supporting your own weight enough and/or entering too quickly.
    The move where the man is behind the woman and supports her under her arms to lean backwards causes bruises really easily, especially if the man supports with his hands underneath her arms rather than his arms underneath, because if he allows his hands to slide slightly she will get friction bruises, if he squeezes she will get pressure bruises. The woman can’t support her own weight with this one and has no control over whether she is bruised or not. In fact, there are several moves where I get bruised, and they are definitely not anything I have any control about whatsoever...

    I find that men mostly don’t ask if they can do dips and drops, they just do them, and if they’ve ever done them before on you then generally they assume it will always be OK. I do prefer to be asked, but to be honest it still isn’t the complete answer to the dips and drops issues: I love d&ds, but I don’t love rubbish ones, and I won’t know how it will feel with a bloke until he does one on me, by which time it’s too late. So I always say yes if I’m asked, even if I might be a bit uncertain, but then after the first few if I don’t like them I just don’t follow them awfully well (whoops a daisy, how sad).

    Also, the man might ask politely, but I still won’t know what he has in mind! Am I saying yes to a little dippy thing, or does he plan a major uncontrollable-on-my-part full arms’ length drop? It’s lovely to think you can be responsible for your own weight in lots of drops, but mostly I find I can’t be because I get to the point where I have my own weight and generally find the man taking me further than that. Maybe my centre of balance is in a funny place, or because I’m tallish? (As long as he gets me up again then I’m usually OK about it).

    I used to not be able to do the bendy-back thing, but my back has improved now so I find I’m usually alright for the odd one provided my muscles are already warmed up and I can bend myself slowly and at the angle I choose, though given a choice I still wouldn’t choose to do it. What I really don’t like is the man looming over and forcing me further, which is not unusual. Or looming so I can’t come up when I’m ready but have to wait for him to unloom himself and get out of my vertical space.

    Other than that – I don’t like being dipped/dropped by men who are smaller/lighter than me. It doesn’t feel right and I don’t feel secure. I was dropped by a woman (in a workshop) and it was blindingly obvious to me from the first rotation that she wasn’t going to be strong enough to support me, and each time I went round I was dipping myself very defensively, but then we got to a move where I couldn’t support my own weight (...bump!) I hate it when the lead feels you aren’t going with what he wants, so he pulls/pushes a bit harder. I also don’t like being flung into a drop too fast because that usually means I’m off balance and don’t have any hope of getting my weight where I want it.

    My most horrible back bend ever was led by the lead shoving a karate chop hand to my throat which forced me sharply backwards (to avoid imminent death) and using his other hand on the small of my back to pull me into him. I never expected anything like that! It hurt my throat and my back but I was utterly helpless to do anything about it at the time except emit a rather choked squawk of pain…The chap who did it had thought it would be OK, we danced at class regularly, he’d d&d’d me before etc. He showed me afterwards that he could lead this move on his girlfriend with whom it was obviously fine and she made it look as graceful as such a vile move could be. He was as horrified by my reaction as I had been that he’d done it. We did laugh about it (after he had massaged my throat!) and he agreed never to do it again (on pain of death ). I would trust him to drop me all over the place but NOT like that. Ouch - I felt like I was being mugged or worse! Not a good feeling at all, and if he wasn't such a nice chap I would probably never have danced with him again because it was a horrible scary out-of-control thing from my point of view.

    Oh and I loathe any kind of forward lean thing, especially the kind where you can’t take a step forward but just have to go forwards with your body leaving your feet behind – I have no hope of taking my own weight, I can’t really get myself up and off the bloke without him shoving me away, and frankly, if I want to squish my boobs onto someone it should be at a time and on a male of my own choosing.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon r View Post
    I also spotted a young Roger Chin
    There's never been such a thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    The move where the man is behind the woman and supports her under her arms to lean backwards causes bruises really easily, especially if the man supports with his hands underneath her arms
    You've just reminded me of a workshop I did at a weekender once..

    It had a 'drunken sailor drop' in it. The lady stands in front of the guy, feet together, then the guy lunges to the side, taking the woman with him. (impossible to take your own weight and VERY SCARY )

    Later that night, during the freestyle, I could identify every woman who'd attended that class, as we ALL had great big 'black mans pinches' on the inside of our upper arms

    I remember cheating towards the end and stepping across with the opposite foot!
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    You've just reminded me of a workshop I did at a weekender once..

    It had a 'drunken sailor drop' in it. The lady stands in front of the guy, feet together, then the guy lunges to the side, taking the woman with him. (impossible to take your own weight and VERY SCARY )
    Oh, that sounds like the sailor something or other that we did, where you have to step with your arms out wide and kind of get slung across the front of the man - requires total trust plus an acceptance that bruises are inevitable!

    ..when you think about it, followers really do put their well-being trustingly into the hands of some very strange people...!

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post

    I was, and still am clueless about ariels, but i reckon the follow doesn't need to know anything to be able to do them.
    Ok I am still reading through this thread but I HAD to reply to this. Astro honey you couldn't be further from the truth. The follow not only needs to know what they have to do but they also need to have the ability to do it. Otherwise both parties could end up very hurt.

    The follow needs to be able to control their inner core and needs to be able to support as much of their own weight as is posible. Both parties also need to have an understanding of weight transference and momentum.

    That is not to say that leaders can't get followers off the floor or into drops without the follow knowing what they are doing. When I first started dancing I danced with this guy who spent the entire song flinging me into the air ad I am not talking baby aerials. It was terrifying. Afterwards I discoverd that this guy is ninckamed UGG due to his caveman tendencies. He preys on petite girls, especially new ones. He was doing it back then and he is still doing it now. Scary stuff. Although I escaped unharmed I have heard a number of tales of others who have not been so lucky - and it purely is down to luck.

    Make no mistake - dips and aerials are potentially very dangerous. They may look smart and as a follow they feel fantastic but they MUST be done properly.

    Sorry I really don't want to be digging up the whole aerial debate again but I couldn't just scroll through the above comment and ignore it. Ok I will get back to reading the rest of this thread now and try to reach the end before posting again.

  13. #73
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I know what you mean. I always try to put one leg back to support myself when beling lowered in to a drop, so that I am in control and actually try and limit to a dip, but the times I'm thinking of is when I'm physically forced backwards by my arms (hence the brusies).

    -snip-

    I'm talking about being physically pushed packwards into an arch by the lead pushing down on your chest!
    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    This is a slightly different rant, but no amount of technique on the lady's part will protect her when the man decides "you haven't gone far enough" and pushes to get her back to bend further.

    (And in the case of one guy, if he does it to Bryony again, no amount of technique will protect him, if you get my drift...)
    Unfortunately stupidity is up there with the common cold on the list of things we don't have a cure for.....

    All I can say is, you have great leads where you are.
    I'm not going claim we're all perfect or anything crazy like that, but in general I think we've got a better handle on the dip/drops thing. To be completely honest though - I think the stand-out difference is the followers.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    It's the move where the guy stands behind the follow with an arm under each of hers, supporting her weight as she drops back. For a variety of reasons, I find it's a bit of an "outlier" as far as drops go - I don't think you would normally have the lady support much of her own weight, for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer
    The move where the man is behind the woman and supports her under her arms to lean backwards causes bruises really easily, especially if the man supports with his hands underneath her arms rather than his arms underneath, because if he allows his hands to slide slightly she will get friction bruises, if he squeezes she will get pressure bruises. The woman can’t support her own weight with this one and has no control over whether she is bruised or not. In fact, there are several moves where I get bruised, and they are definitely not anything I have any control about whatsoever...
    Ah - I know the one.

    It's a lot more forgiving if the leader hooks his arms near the elbow under the followers armpits like Moondancer suggests, but even then there's still a pretty good chance of bruising anyway and there isn't a lot the follower can do in that drop to help herself.

    When DT said she was being forced down I'd though she meant she was forced to bend backward like in a dip.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post

    The move where the man is behind the woman and supports her under her arms to lean backwards causes bruises really easily, especially if the man supports with his hands underneath her arms rather than his arms underneath, because if he allows his hands to slide slightly she will get friction bruises, if he squeezes she will get pressure bruises. The woman can’t support her own weight with this one and has no control over whether she is bruised or not. In fact, there are several moves where I get bruised, and they are definitely not anything I have any control about whatsoever...
    I'm not a big fan of this drop, on taste and aesthetics grounds as much as anything. I'm not aware of ever having been bruised by it, but then, I don't get home from Ceroc and check myself head to foot for minor injuries! Some men are very carefully to use their forearms to support the weight which is very considerate. The follower can make it a whole lot harder for themselves and the leader by flopping in the middle like a sack of potatoes rather than maintaining plank. I don't know if flopping would be more likely to cause bruising. Some ladies kick their leg up which presumably causes more weight to be borne on the leg still on the ground. This drop doesn't frighten me much because I reckon I can be prepared to just sit on the floor if something goes wrong, which it never has.

    One very good leader would signal this backwards drop to me by tapping my shoulders (I think) where upon I would obediently drop backwards into thin air, mindlessly, like a trained monkey. He would only get his arms into position when I was at least halfway into the fall, (deliberately) so I would get a nanosecond of utter terror until he caught me. I had to ask him to stop leading it on me after the first few times.

    after the first few if I don’t like them I just don’t follow them awfully well (whoops a daisy, how sad).
    Sometimes I just really enjoy being difficult and uncooperative. If the leader is strong and convincing, however, I find it quite difficult to deliberately not follow a clear lead, especially if it would interrupt the flow of the dance.



    I also don’t like being flung into a drop too fast because that usually means I’m off balance and don’t have any hope of getting my weight where I want it.
    I also don't like not being allowed a second to reorient myself vertically and re-establish my axis before being shoved away into the next move. I especially hate those drops where you get bent back over one knee of the leader, and then, guess what, bent back over the other knee.

    We did laugh about it (after he had massaged my throat!) and he agreed never to do it again (on pain of death ).
    You let him massage your throat??

    Oh and I loathe any kind of forward lean thing, especially the kind where you can’t take a step forward but just have to go forwards with your body leaving your feet behind – I have no hope of taking my own weight, I can’t really get myself up and off the bloke without him shoving me away, and frankly, if I want to squish my boobs onto someone it should be at a time and on a male of my own choosing.
    Best not take up tango, then! I quite like those feet-stuck-to-the-floor ones, especially if the guy wants me to take a step forward but hasn't led it, those ones are very entertaining. And at least you can see where you're heading and can easily take him over with you if you go down.

    The follow needs to be able to control their inner core and needs to be able to support as much of their own weight as is posible. Both parties also need to have an understanding of weight transference and momentum.
    I absolutely agree. As long as you have your feet on the floor the follower can support a considerable amount of their own weight by using their core muscles. I'm not very familiar with aerials but I would imagine holding a consistent body shape would help the leader to accomplish the move safely.

    When I first started dancing I danced with this guy who spent the entire song flinging me into the air ad I am not talking baby aerials. It was terrifying. Afterwards I discoverd that this guy is ninckamed UGG due to his caveman tendencies.
    Yup, I've danced with him as well. He is EXTREMELY big and strong and wants the world to know.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I have banned dips and drops along with aerials at my venues. I have it written in the welcome pack that I hand out to new dancers. I have seen too many beginners either getting thrown in to a drop by men who want to show off or by new men copying what the more experianced men are doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I only allow drops to be done if I know the couple well enough to know they are sensible or if they have been to a dips and drops workshop with us where I spend the first 10 minutes telling them about saftey etc.
    so are dips and drops banned or not????


    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post


    I was tipped upside down in an ariel at ISH. He didn't ask, but he did ask me the second time, I said yes. It was like wheee....

    ...remember pointing my toes at the ceiling!

    I was, and still am clueless about ariels, but i reckon the follow doesn't need to know anything to be able to do them.
    this is SO wrong!!! You are very lucky not to have been injured, injured him (although it would have been his own fault), injured a poor bystander.

    A follow does need to know many things to be able to do aerials safely – carrying their own weight, where not to hold on to the lead, when to hold onto the lead to name just a few and many others that vary from move to move.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Taken from the rules in our New Dancers booklet (given to all new people through the door):- Drops, Large dips and Aerials are not permitted on the dance floor withour prior permission from a Smooth jive instructor or attendance at a Smooth Jive Dips and Drops workshop. This helps prevent injuries and provides your dance partner with a nicer dance. If you are not sure what is and isn't permitted, please ask.
    how do you ensure that people actually read this booklet????




    Well this thread has made for interesting reading – I like to be asked – although sometimes it seems a little weird – if I am prepared to dips & drops is influenced by a very wide range of things and can vary through a night – and range from my mood, to the venue, how busy it is, injuries etc

    A big factor is who my lead is – there are some leads that I won’t do dips & drops with as I don’t think they are safe in technique/floor craft. Usually I will say no to dips and drops during a first dance with a new lead as until I dance with them, I’m not sure that they have the frame, posture, balance to do dips safely.

    That said I find that I only get actually asked about 1/3 of the time – of those I know well I figure it is my responsibility to advise them if I’m not up for it – also I know that they aren’t going to try and force a dip if I pull up to prevent it.

    One interesting occasion I was dancing with a gentleman who tried to put me into a dip – I was injured and tired but had been doing some dips with my dance partner earlier – when he first went do the dip I resisted and he applied some pressure – not force just pressure and looked at me oddly and then tried again with a little more pressure and started to tell me what I should do – I looked at him and said no! he went ok and we danced some more when he tried to lead a different dip – went through the same process as earlier – only with a much sterner NO! from me.

    After which we finished the dance dip attempts free. As it was a gentleman I dance with semi regularly, I asked him if I could give him some advice about dips as we were walking off the floor and he said yes – so explained to him that if a girl doesn’t go with a dip he should never never apply pressure on them to go into it – from there we had an interesting chat about the etiquette of doing dips & drops.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    so are dips and drops banned or not????
    I thought it was pretty self explanatory

    Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew
    Taken from the rules in our New Dancers booklet (given to all new people through the door):- Drops, Large dips and Aerials are not permitted on the dance floor without prior permission from a Smooth jive instructor or attendance at a Smooth Jive Dips and Drops workshop. This helps prevent injuries and provides your dance partner with a nicer dance. If you are not sure what is and isn't permitted, please ask.






    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    how do you ensure that people actually read this booklet????
    You can't ensure that people do read it, however, I believe that a majority do as it has all workshop dates, dance tips, the beginners routines, shoe discount vouchers etc inside.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    You can't ensure that people do read it, however, I believe that a majority do as it has all workshop dates, dance tips, the beginners routines, shoe discount vouchers etc inside.
    Lee

    I can see how your system works for your own regulars and as I've said I support your right to enforce a set of dancing rules in your own venues. What about freestyles when you get people from other clubs or passing traffic? How do you get the message across to them?

    One thing is for sure - putting shoe discount vouchers in there is bound to attract the attention of the ladies


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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    Ok I am still reading through this thread but I HAD to reply to this. Astro honey you couldn't be further from the truth. The follow not only needs to know what they have to do but they also need to have the ability to do it. Otherwise both parties could end up very hurt.

    The follow needs to be able to control their inner core and needs to be able to support as much of their own weight as is posible. Both parties also need to have an understanding of weight transference and momentum.

    That is not to say that leaders can't get followers off the floor or into drops without the follow knowing what they are doing. When I first started dancing I danced with this guy who spent the entire song flinging me into the air ad I am not talking baby aerials. It was terrifying. Afterwards I discoverd that this guy is ninckamed UGG due to his caveman tendencies. He preys on petite girls, especially new ones. He was doing it back then and he is still doing it now. Scary stuff. Although I escaped unharmed I have heard a number of tales of others who have not been so lucky - and it purely is down to luck.

    Make no mistake - dips and aerials are potentially very dangerous. They may look smart and as a follow they feel fantastic but they MUST be done properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    Yup, I've danced with him as well. He is EXTREMELY big and strong and wants the world to know.
    It wasn't him. This guy was slim and medium build.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post


    this is SO wrong!!! You are very lucky not to have been injured, injured him (although it would have been his own fault), injured a poor bystander.

    A follow does need to know many things to be able to do aerials safely – carrying their own weight, where not to hold on to the lead, when to hold onto the lead to name just a few and many others that vary from move to move.
    It seems I was extremely lucky.

    Thinking about it more, it was around Xmas 2006, cos the track was "All I want for Xmas is You"

    We were dancing fast, and suddenly I was looking at my feet and the ceiling.

    You are right Twirly Bird, it did feel fantastic, so when he asked if I wanted to do it again, I said yes. This time he paused and I knew he was gonna do it. The second one was as good as the first.

    He was a complete stanger, and I haven't seen him since. We only had that one dance. I asked his name, but can't remember it. Not an unusual name, maybe Ian?

    I think it was the last dance of the night, so my muscles would have been well loosened.

    As you say Yliander and TB I was extemely lucky. My guardian angel must have been watching over me. Have not done any aerials before or since. I had assumed it was all down to the man's technigue, except for the difficult aerials.

    – so explained to him that if a girl doesn’t go with a dip he should never never apply pressure on them to go into it – from there we had an interesting chat about the etiquette of doing dips & drops.
    Last edited by Astro; 27th-February-2009 at 01:17 PM.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Lee

    I can see how your system works for your own regulars and as I've said I support your right to enforce a set of dancing rules in your own venues. What about freestyles when you get people from other clubs or passing traffic? How do you get the message across to them?

    One thing is for sure - putting shoe discount vouchers in there is bound to attract the attention of the ladies


    Agent 000
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    We have only run 2 Sunday eve freestyles and these have been small intimate dances in a small intimate venue. Any new dancer to us fills in a new dancer form and gets the pack regardless. Also our numbers are failry small at the mo. Around 40 at class nights and 20 or so at freestyles so telling people face to face is not a problem.

    I think though if you can create responibility amoungst your core group of dancers in a class, it spreads amounst the non core.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    How do you get the message across to them?
    It's simple really - if they attempt something that is against the rules, tell them not to. Or if you're too chicken like me, get the organiser to do it.

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