View Poll Results: Dips and Drops, Do You or Don't You Ask

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  • I'm a lead and I always ask before I dip/drop

    12 28.57%
  • I'm a lead and I make an educated guess before I dip/drop rather than asking

    9 21.43%
  • I'm a follow and I expect always to be asked before I am dipped/dropped

    17 40.48%
  • I'm a follow and I am am happy to be dipped/dropped without asking

    4 9.52%
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Thread: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

  1. #41
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    There are very few leads who can actually drop properly though in my experience and most end up hurting you or putting you into a position that just looks...... like you just shat yourself.
    You put it so eloquently

    Not to mention of course the wet-knickers moments when you do unintentional aerials, even those that looked good enough to persuade people that you were doing a brand new move!

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    sorry lee i dont understand are people allowed to do them at your venues or not and out of interest how do you stop them
    Taken from the rules in our New Dancers booklet (given to all new people through the door):- Drops, Large dips and Aerials are not permitted on the dance floor withour prior permission from a Smooth jive instructor or attendance at a Smooth Jive Dips and Drops workshop. This helps prevent injuries and provides your dance partner with a nicer dance. If you are not sure what is and isn't permitted, please ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    if you have banned them why are you still selling dips and drops workshops?
    as no one is allowed to use them at your venues
    As above, you can use them if you go to a workshop as a major part of the workshop is about safty and floor craft

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    whats going to be banned next, the man spin?
    thats just as dangerous as more accidents happen with that move than any other in ceroc
    Nope just ban the signal that goes with it. It's pointless, looks stupid and results in men karate choping their partners. I had an acident with a man spin once a few weeks in to dancing. Done the signal justas an old geezer was doing some kind of duck behind me. I karate chopped him on tha back of the neck and he collapsed. I thought I had killed him.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    i do however agree that they should not be taught in a general class situation but need the time and intensity of a workshop just to get the basic safetly points right
    I have seen them taught in the beginners class ***!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    me too but dont know how you can stop this

    By writing it in the rules and having a word with anyone seen doing it.

  3. #43
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Sorry Astro, but I'm sure that can't be true.

    There's plenty of technique from the follow's side in dips and drops that prevents injury on both sides. I didn't get comfortable with them until someone who is pretty good showed me several and how to hold myself - even now I'm not that good.

    I'd have thought that it was even more likely in aerials as the chances of flailing arms and legs causing problems is quite high. Any experts care to comment?
    http://Back at the dawn of time ...

    I believe this shows a move like Astro refers to being done on a lady that has no experience of jive at all, without pre-consent.

    There are various experts present ...





  4. #44
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    For me, quite simply, if I see a guy doing lots of drops (or anything where the follow no longer has control of her own balance), I won't seek them out for dances.

    Sometimes, I think it's more than a problem of asking or not ... From time to time, guys will ask if I'm alright to do drops, and I may well say no, depending on how I'm feeling. But then they carry on and do them regardless.

    In most cases, I think this is a genuine mistake - they are so used to filling their dances with drops that they don't consciously stop to think, oh I shouldn't be doing that with this partner. And what you do about that, I don't know ...

    Rachel

  5. #45
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Even more rare is a drop of any kind. I only ever do those with DT (and maybe Trouble even more infrequently) and even then she usually has to remind me that we haven't done it in ages.
    Surely she could wait until the track had finished and you could both then just leave early

  6. #46
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    I'm with Lory on what she said earlier.

    Yes there're people i'm happy to do drops & dips with because i dance with them a lot and am confident that their lead is clear and they know when my weight is in the right and safe place to actually then complete the drop.

    If I'm dancing with someone for the first time then I'd generally expect them to ask if I do drops. However if I feel comfortable dancing with them, they're a confident & safe lead and I'm not being dragged around all over the place, then I'm happy to do dips & most drops even if I'm not asked.

    There're 2 types of people I can't stand dancing with. The first are people who i know, dance with fairly frequently and am friendly with but I don't feel they're a strong enough lead or have the technical stuff right to do drops with them. But because they see me doing drops with other people, and because they've done drops workshops/classes, they think they're fine to lead them. In these cases I tend to tell the person up front which dips I'm willing to do (I'm fairly opinionated so the few people this applies to are fine with this, although I pity the girls who do these drops with them).

    The others are people I've never danced with/rarely dance with who throw drops in all over the place and just presume I know what they're doing and that I'm happy with it. I tend to not follow in these cases. If I've seen them doing unsafe drops with other people then I can say up front "no drops". It does sometimes it's end up with an argument when they still go to lead me into one, and I have to say no again and then explain why (usually explaining I only do drops with people I've been dancing with a while and where we both feel safe & secure).

    I just think it's safer to ask even though you don't always think about it. And obviously listen to the answer. And followers should also think about the guy they're following - not to just presume the drop is the one they think it's going to be.

  7. #47
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Taken from the rules in our New Dancers booklet (given to all new people through the door):- Drops, Large dips and Aerials are not permitted on the dance floor withour prior permission from a Smooth jive instructor or attendance at a Smooth Jive Dips and Drops workshop. This helps prevent injuries and provides your dance partner with a nicer dance. If you are not sure what is and isn't permitted, please ask.
    Lee, I support your stance at your own venues. What about larger freestyles where you have lots of outsiders do you make a point of pointing out something like this, which is not common.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    i do however agree that they should not be taught in a general class situation but need the time and intensity of a workshop just to get the basic safetly points right
    I have seen them taught in the beginners class ***!!!!
    I'm not saying that there is not a place for a specialist class, there absolutely is, however there is no reason why some of the more basic dips and even some drops cannot be covered in normal class safely. Beginners class is a bit much - dips and drops are hardly beginner fayre. However, there is ample time to explain the safety features of the average dip/drop and show people how to do it as one of the moves in a normal lesson. In fact its probably easier than some of that complicated twisty arm crap that looks rubbish on the dancefloor anyway.

    We've seen several posts from our Southern Hemisphere cousins that mention the routine appearance of dips/drops in normal classes and if they can do it why not here?


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  8. #48
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Status check. Post 47 and there are broadly similar numbers of responses from leads and follows. The leads are pretty divided about whether they should ask (8 for and 6 against) whereas not surprisingly the follows are a lot more polarised (13 saying they wished to be asked against 3 that say it's not necessary).

    Seems like there is a bit of a mismatch in expectations

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  9. #49
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post

    There are various experts present ...
    How times have moved on!



    Sheesh, that's given me a frozen shoulder just watching those bouncy hands.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    There are very few leads who can actually drop properly though in my experience and most end up hurting you or putting you into a position that just looks...... like you just shat yourself.


    I don't think I've been to a weekender without having hideous bruises on the underside of my upper arms - purely down to some Numpty or other putting me into a back drop really badly (dunno what it's actually called). Rarely is that move done correctly/safely/comfortably.

    The other one that is hardly ever done correctly/safely/comfortably is the one where you have to arch your back backwards. Feels great when it's done properly, but usually just some useless ignorant Fek who is likely to put your back out, or, as happened at Cheshunt last week - use it as an excuse to stick his head in my cleavage while my head was right back.

  11. #51
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    I'm not saying that there is not a place for a specialist class, there absolutely is, however there is no reason why some of the more basic dips and even some drops cannot be covered in normal class safely.
    I would go further. The best way to learn to dip/drop correctly is to be taught well. Most people learn, particularly with respect to physical activities, through repetition of correct technique. An occasional specialist workshop is not a good way to build that basic technique. If anything, it leads to more problems than it solves (people do one workshop and seem to believe they can do drops without any problem).

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    We've seen several posts from our Southern Hemisphere cousins that mention the routine appearance of dips/drops in normal classes and if they can do it why not here?
    I don't know about Australia, but in Auckland, the ability to do a basic ballroom drop is a requisite for moving to the intermediate class. It is taught in the workshops that is required before you are allowed to start intermediate classes.

    Most of the technical tips that are taught in every class in NZ I've not seen mentioned in the UK in either dips and drops workshops, masterclasses or in regular classes teaching drops. Dips and drops are taught in intermediate classes, but they are taught to a significantly higher standard.

  12. #52
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble
    I don't think I've been to a weekender without having hideous bruises on the underside of my upper arms - purely down to some Numpty or other putting me into a back drop really badly (dunno what it's actually called). Rarely is that move done correctly/safely/comfortably.
    I’m sure I don’t know that move specifically, but my immediate reaction is to think that if you’re getting bruises from dips or drops, you’re probably not supporting your own weight enough and/or entering too quickly.That may or may not be your fault in this particular case, and I’m talking about a general case here rather than yours specifically DT so please don’t take this personally.

    In my experience with most of the followers I’ve seen do dips (not necessarily drops….) and then complain about how uncomfortable or badly led they were I’ve been left thinking “Well, yeah – but you’re not exactly helping yourself out there either. Perhaps it isn’t entirely your partners fault”.

    I know there are guys out there who make it very difficult for their partner to protect themselves when doing dips and drops, and I’m not excusing their behavior. I can think of quite a few followers who are their own worst enemy as well though. I’ve personally had my back badly wrenched by catching a toppling woman who decided I was going for a dip/drop because I started a move with the “wrong hand”. I reacted too late to turn it into an easy dip and she ploughed right on through. I should have let her fall……

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble
    The other one that is hardly ever done correctly/safely/comfortably is the one where you have to arch your back backwards. Feels great when it's done properly, but usually just some useless ignorant Fek who is likely to put your back out, or, as happened at Cheshunt last week - use it as an excuse to stick his head in my cleavage while my head was right back.
    Again, I don’t know specifically which move you’re talking about so I may be blowing smoke here but….

    …If you’re doing some sort of dip with your back arched, I’d expect you to be taking control of the depth and speed yourself, so if your back is put out it was probably your own doing. The golden rule I was taught for dips was that the guy should be able to step away while the girl can maintain her position on her own.

    Even in a layback, which is a relatively compromised position as far as dips go, the girl can take a surprising amount of her own weight by coming up on her toes and pushing her pelvis forward. To be fair, this results in fairly…erm….intimate contact so it’s understandable that many woman wouldn’t want to do it. From a technical perspective though it’s much safer for everyone that way.

    I think the important difference here is the fact that I’ve been taught these things over an extended period rather than listened to a ten minute safety speech two years ago at a workshop whose details I almost immediately forgot. Without proper long-term exposure you end up with more of a “monkey see – monkey jump in way over his head” culture and I think so many people are entirely self-taught and dangerous because of it.
    Last edited by NZ Monkey; 25th-February-2009 at 11:39 PM. Reason: grammer.

  13. #53
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I would go further. The best way to learn to dip/drop correctly is to be taught well. Most people learn, particularly with respect to physical activities, through repetition of correct technique. An occasional specialist workshop is not a good way to build that basic technique. If anything, it leads to more problems than it solves (people do one workshop and seem to believe they can do drops without any problem).

    I don't know about Australia, but in Auckland, the ability to do a basic ballroom drop is a requisite for moving to the intermediate class. It is taught in the workshops that is required before you are allowed to start intermediate classes.

    Most of the technical tips that are taught in every class in NZ I've not seen mentioned in the UK in either dips and drops workshops, masterclasses or in regular classes teaching drops. Dips and drops are taught in intermediate classes, but they are taught to a significantly higher standard.
    100% agreement from me.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    AM prepared to apologise absolutely if I'm wrong, but....

    Is there a young Mike Ellard in this video?!??!?!?!?!?!!?!

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    AM prepared to apologise absolutely if I'm wrong, but....

    Is there a young Mike Ellard in this video?!??!?!?!?!?!!?
    Well - yes. That's why it says on the 'More info' section that Mike Ellard is in it. It's a dead giveaway if you ask me

    (although, to be fair, it doesn't say he's young. One probably has to guess that part)

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    I have been asked to dace with conditions: Please don't spin me to much. Don't do dips or drops. Don't raise my right (/left) arm too high. Don't use my right (/left) hand. Don't spin/turn me (that was a challenge)
    I've managed all of them. With a few notable exceptions Coming off the dance floor with LM saying "Oops - you said no dips". Double spinning someone who said they didn't want spun,... Both finished with a smile and said it was OK because I led them well.

    In MJ I lead constantly: I have a constant connection with my follower that guides them all the way through a move - I feel them on the end of my arm at every point through the movement and keep them on the path I am leading. The only time the connection differs is when I stop actually leading, but keep the connection and frame holding the follower - allowing the follower space to play or allowing them to hijack.
    What does this have to do with dips & drops?
    I lead them the same way: I lead the follower into the position for a dip and provide a stable, braced frame with an awareness of them through the connection. But I do not actually lead them into the dip: I wait for them to initiate it and provide support & stability.

    This means that I can lead a dip frame on a beginner, an advanced dancer, someone with a bad back or a contortionist. They decide how/if to dip and how deep to go. I can prevent them from injuring themselves or me, I can stop them going too deep, I can control the speed, I can escape into something else or dramatise it if the follower aborts. It also means that I don't have to ask because I am not putting my follower in danger.

    This is how I try to lead. No matter how good I like to think I am, I screw up now & again. I've been dancing years, been taught by some of the best teachers there are, and am always learning more. I perhaps do one dip per dance. I almost never do drops.

    If there is a (higher than normal) risk to your partner, then always ask.
    If you're doing a dip where you think that it's no more dangerous than any other move you do, I would examine every other move you do in great detail.

  17. #57
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    .....

    But i can't help it, everytime someone mentions drops, I instantly think about a certain guy, who makes me shudder.

    Firstly he doesn't ask, secondly he has zero floor-craft, the drops bear no relationship to the music whatsoever, he always feels off balance and lastly, once he starts, he's hesitant and slow... in fact NOTHING's right about it!

    I've realised now, I have to remind him EVERYTIME, "sorry, no drops please " and then I know I'm going to be subjected to the same old conversation/argument But your good, you can do them, I've seen you.... blah blah blah ARGH!!!
    Sorry Lory - I didn't realise. Consider the message now well and truly received - and please accept my apologies.

    PM x

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by PretzelMeister View Post
    Sorry Lory - I didn't realise.
    Good, I'm glad its finally sunk in!

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I’m sure I don’t know that move specifically, but my immediate reaction is to think that if you’re getting bruises from dips or drops, you’re probably not supporting your own weight enough and/or entering too quickly.
    I know what you mean. I always try to put one leg back to support myself when beling lowered in to a drop, so that I am in control and actually try and limit to a dip, but the times I'm thinking of is when I'm physically forced backwards by my arms (hence the brusies).


    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    …If you’re doing some sort of dip with your back arched, I’d expect you to be taking control of the depth and speed yourself, so if your back is put out it was probably your own doing. The golden rule I was taught for dips was that the guy should be able to step away while the girl can maintain her position on her own.
    All I can say is, you have great leads where you are. I'm talking about being physically pushed packwards into an arch by the lead pushing down on your chest!

    I've done a dips and drops workshop and have learnt how to support myself, but some leads ares so forceful, it's impossible to keep control.

    I think the problem is, as you say...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    ...many people are entirely self-taught and dangerous because of it.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I’m sure I don’t know that move specifically, but my immediate reaction is to think that if you’re getting bruises from dips or drops, you’re probably not supporting your own weight enough and/or entering too quickly.
    Not necessarily - it can be soemthing as simple as someone just grabbing your arm too tightly - mind you I bruise like a peach like I'm a bad example...

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    …If you’re doing some sort of dip with your back arched, I’d expect you to be taking control of the depth and speed yourself, so if your back is put out it was probably your own doing.
    Again, not necessarily. The first time I ever put my bad out dancing was during a move like this where the lead just twisted me the wrong way (it was a case of "spin spin spin, absorb the momentum and dip the follow back in a sweeping action" - class taught move in this case) where the lead just yanked me back down and against my momentum leading to a fantastic yarring motion that, had I not been surrounded by the physios and professional massueses which seem to occupy Glasgow venues, would have left me out of action for the rest of the night.

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