I only do drops on a very select few as a rule.
I'm a lead and I always ask before I dip/drop
I'm a lead and I make an educated guess before I dip/drop rather than asking
I'm a follow and I expect always to be asked before I am dipped/dropped
I'm a follow and I am am happy to be dipped/dropped without asking
Inspired by an exchange in the 'Correct Response to Sabotage' thread http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...&postcount=226.
The question for leads is, if you use dips and drops in your dance do you ask your follow before you do them or do you just weigh up the follower and make an educated guess?
For follows, are you happy to do dips and drops in your dance and, if so, do you expect to be asked by the lead beforehand or are you happy to take whatever move comes your way?
I'll start the ball rolling by saying that dips and drops are a regular feature of my own dance and I endeavour always to ask the follow on the way onto the floor if she (I've yet to drop a man - time will come) is content to do dips and drops.
I try to go by the conventions on the attached - and hope my follows do the same. Am I in the minority?
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Last edited by Agente Secreto; 24th-February-2009 at 10:37 PM.
I only do drops on a very select few as a rule.
FWIW, I do 2 different things. If it's a dancer I know, then I'll ask asap if they're OK with dips and drops tonight. If I don't know the dancer, I'll dance a few moves and gauge the following and, more importantly, the frame. If apppropriate, I will then ask if she's OK with dips and drops.
Maybe a little hotshotesque, I dunno... but having danced with the level of pain a prolapsed disc brings for 9 months, I feel OK taking steps to protect myself and my partner.
That said, I think in the last 12 months there have been a handful of occasions I haven't asked and got lost in the music before I've taken the time to ask.
Leading or following, I have sadly injured many people on and off the dance floor, including myself, and it has always been down to poor balance or poor floorcraft. Supposedly dangerous moves have never featured, though they've scared me a few times.
Mostly, I don't do dips and drops except by accident, when trying to lead something else. Normally I manage to say "no" before it gets to that point. Otherwise, such accidents can end up with my partner on the floor, and me standing over her making sure she doesn't get kicked. Maybe once in a dozen songs the music and the dance and my partner line up nicely, and I will lead a small dip. I found that the common response to "do you do dips" is confusion or disapproval, and therefore don't ask the question any more.
When I follow, I find that almost nobody asks for permission. Specifically, CJ and Dai asked, and nobody else did. I gave the same response to both (roughly "uh, well I'm really bad at taking my own weight, but if you want to try..."). CJ then led entirely upright stuff, while Dai led a variety of drops mixed with other moves. Meanwhile, plenty of people have led dips and leans on me, and a few people have led drops on me, and once I was led into a very baby 'aerial', all without permission. Because I am not insane, I base my expectations as a follower on what actually happens, rather than theoretical etiquette that doesn't happen. Sometimes I mis-follow and think there is a lead for a dip when there is not, much to my chagrin, despite my partner not having asked permission to lead a dip. If I am led something that appears dangerous to me, I don't follow it.
I haven't danced with CJ much (maybe 3 times) but I'm impressed by the way he always asks how you feel about dips n drops tonight. I've mentioned this approach to a few people recently (though oddly, not many men) .
A lot of guys seem to think that once they've dipped / dropped you once that you're always fit for it. Sadly I think a lot of 'those' guys won't be on the forum.
I don't know why you would worry that it might sound 'hotshotesque' (btw, I like that word ) To my mind, it shows a level of respect, which I admire!
The thing is, I'll be perfectly honest, there's some guy's I like doing drops with and there some guys I don't.
Maybe they're great at doing drops with lots of other ladies but if I don't feel I'm going to be safe, then I don't want to be subjected to it against my will!
So, even if a guy sees me do drops with 10 guys before he dances with me, he should still ask!
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"If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine
From the other thread:
More generally, anything could cause damage, so that includes everything.
Perhaps you would care to quote his exact words on a specific DVD where he says that you should ask for permission before leading dips (as opposed to drops or seducers)?
Here's some of Peter's advice for followers:
As with his advice for leaders, in my experience, the vast majority of followers ignore this advice, for which I am very thankful. The man is a persuasive genius, and should surely enter politics.Originally Posted by Peter Phillips
Why am I called 'Revdrop'?.....hmmmmm... I wonder?!
Basic rule I try to follow and also teach whenever teaching others about dips and drops is the lead must always ask before doing any drops, for a multitude of good reasons. I usually ask fairly early on in the dance, once I've worked out whether the follow is reasonably experienced and/or competent and/or able to be dropped, something like, 'Are you OK with dips and drops?'. I would ask this even if I've danced with some-one 100 times on previous occasions... you never know whether they might have injured themselves that particular week/night... so you have to ask. If I'd never danced with some-one before, and they said it was OK, I would try something simple to start with and see how they cope with that before trying anything more complex.
Follows need to 'feel good', and if they 'feel good' they will usually 'look good'. They won't 'feel good' if leads just haul them around into drops without any musicality or style... and so they won't look good either if a lead adopts this sort of approach.
I have A4 sheets of guidance for leads and follows - some basic rules for drops. PM me if you want a copy... or I could post on the forum somehow if anyone was interested?
I make a judgment call based on how well I know my partners, how crisp the other elements of their dancing is and whether I think there is any external danger involved.
I do not ask. I am an inconsiderate, bad man.
Surprisingly enough, this is the way pretty much everyone around these part operates, and it works. Go figure.
This is taken from the fantastic if somewhat lengthy thread here: http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=11235
Which sums my views up more succinctly than I probably would have.Originally Posted by Amir
I’ll make the same comment here that I did in the previous thread – I’ve seen far more serious injuries as a result of stray elbows and trodden on achilles tendons than anything dip/drop related.
When I teach dips, I always repeatedly point out that guys should ask before doing dips. And, from the other side of the coin, girls should never throw themselves into dips.
Hence, when I'm dancing, I mostly ask first. Sometimes girls throw themselves into dips when I'm not leading them. And occasionally, I also have to admit that I do forget.
However, once I've asked once, and been given permission, I feel that it then becomes the girls responsibility to inform me if the circumstances have changed, and she does not want to do dips any more.
The one thing guarenteed to annoy me on the dancefloor, is intermediate guys who put beginner ladies into dips and worse, whether they ask them first or not. If you want to impress new ladies guys, learn to dance, because I find that it's usually guys that can't dance well who do this. Caveman approach to picking up a partner or something??
I'm similar. With people I don't know well, I build up through relatively innocuous dips, to major drops. With people I don't know well, the most I'm likely to do is a minor lean or dip; I don't consider them particularly dangerous.Me too.
I'm OK with that.
There are a few guys where I dance now that do that habitually. Not only is it obnoxious and cavemanish, their technique is particularly bad. I do find in the UK, when compared to NZ, the standard that dips and drops are taught to is significantly lower: the emphasis on doing them properly - ie good technique (which is the best way to avoid injury) - is much lower. Hence, I'm far less comfortable leading drops in this country than I am in NZ.
Yes, thinking about it, I'd go along with that
But i can't help it, everytime someone mentions drops, I instantly think about a certain guy, who makes me shudder.
Firstly he doesn't ask, secondly he has zero floor-craft, the drops bear no relationship to the music whatsoever, he always feels off balance and lastly, once he starts, he's hesitant and slow... in fact NOTHING's right about it!
I've realised now, I have to remind him EVERYTIME, "sorry, no drops please " and then I know I'm going to be subjected to the same old conversation/argument But your good, you can do them, I've seen you.... blah blah blah ARGH!!!
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"If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine
Peter is no longer in to MJ. I share a venue with him once a month where he does a 60's video disco. He's not to bad at it either.
I have banned dips and drops along with aerials at my venues. I have it written in the welcome pack that I hand out to new dancers. I have seen too many beginners either getting thrown in to a drop by men who want to show off or by new men copying what the more experianced men are doing.
I only allow drops to be done if I know the couple well enough to know they are sensible or if they have been to a dips and drops workshop with us where I spend the first 10 minutes telling them about saftey etc.
IMHO I think that drops are pretty unneccasery for a good dance. They dont really add much. I don't mind taking the odd dip and drop as a follower but will only do it with the dancer I am with.
As a leader I never lead them (bar a few with Claire). I used to but have grown up abit.
I can't speak for other franchises, but down this way, the two Ceroc and Mojive plus three fair sized independant franchises, they very rarely teach drops these days. There are been a definite seachange from when I started as drops were fairly common then.
I don't know whether this is linked to insurance and reducing the chance of injury (the rumour), or that they have just dropped out of fashion.
Personally, I got bored with them a long time ago. I do get rather unsubtle hints from time to time. It's obvious a large number of ladies do like drops, and if the hint is really unsubtle, I'll chuck in a coupla simple ones. So my answer would be I don't ask because I don't do. But if a lady asks me, I'll satisfy her
I'll thank you to keep my elbows out of this. Go pick on someone else's
On a more serious note, I think it bears mentioning that on more than one occasion, I've known minor injuries to be caused by badly led / forced drops, and the girls concerned decided to do the polite thing and not actually say anything. (On one notable evening, two friends of mine had their backs wrenched quite badly by the same guy, leading the same drop on each of them. And yet - not only did they not want to tell him, but they refused to point him out to me, in case I did decide to speak to him. Go figure.)
So - it's quite possible it happens more than you think.
Myself, I'll lead the occasional drop with a partner I know very well. Aside from that, I limit myself to the odd minor dip.
sorry lee i dont understand are people allowed to do them at your venues or not and out of interest how do you stop them
if you have banned them why are you still selling dips and drops workshops?
as no one is allowed to use them at your venues
This is one of my points with ceroc banning air steps
I paid £150 to ceroc for my wife and i to do the two lift drops and seducers workshops (we did the first one twice which included over an hour of safety stuff) including moves that i am not alowed to do at any ceroc venue
whats going to be banned next, the man spin?
thats just as dangerous as more accidents happen with that move than any other in ceroc
i do however agree that they should not be taught in a general class situation but need the time and intensity of a workshop just to get the basic safetly points right
me too but dont know how you can stop this
MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
"If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine
If the girlies are capable of asking a guy to dance they should be capable of saying up front 'I don't do drops' albeit with the possible subtext of 'I do usually but not with you you f**kwit'.
It just seems the most sensible approach as more women do them than not.
Someone else has said what comes next, do you ask if they like to spin, etc - I was told by someone once 'I don't do drops (fair enough) and I don't do spinning' ! What the **** was she doing at an MJ evening !
The sound of steps is me coming down off my soapbox.
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