View Poll Results: Dips and Drops, Do You or Don't You Ask

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  • I'm a lead and I always ask before I dip/drop

    12 28.57%
  • I'm a lead and I make an educated guess before I dip/drop rather than asking

    9 21.43%
  • I'm a follow and I expect always to be asked before I am dipped/dropped

    17 40.48%
  • I'm a follow and I am am happy to be dipped/dropped without asking

    4 9.52%
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Thread: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

  1. #1
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    Question Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Inspired by an exchange in the 'Correct Response to Sabotage' thread http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...&postcount=226.

    The question for leads is, if you use dips and drops in your dance do you ask your follow before you do them or do you just weigh up the follower and make an educated guess?

    For follows, are you happy to do dips and drops in your dance and, if so, do you expect to be asked by the lead beforehand or are you happy to take whatever move comes your way?

    I'll start the ball rolling by saying that dips and drops are a regular feature of my own dance and I endeavour always to ask the follow on the way onto the floor if she (I've yet to drop a man - time will come) is content to do dips and drops.

    I try to go by the conventions on the attached - and hope my follows do the same. Am I in the minority?

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    Last edited by Agente Secreto; 24th-February-2009 at 10:37 PM.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    I only do drops on a very select few as a rule.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    FWIW, I do 2 different things. If it's a dancer I know, then I'll ask asap if they're OK with dips and drops tonight. If I don't know the dancer, I'll dance a few moves and gauge the following and, more importantly, the frame. If apppropriate, I will then ask if she's OK with dips and drops.

    Maybe a little hotshotesque, I dunno... but having danced with the level of pain a prolapsed disc brings for 9 months, I feel OK taking steps to protect myself and my partner.

    That said, I think in the last 12 months there have been a handful of occasions I haven't asked and got lost in the music before I've taken the time to ask.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Leading or following, I have sadly injured many people on and off the dance floor, including myself, and it has always been down to poor balance or poor floorcraft. Supposedly dangerous moves have never featured, though they've scared me a few times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    The question for leads is, if you use dips and drops in your dance do you ask your follow before you do them or do you just weigh up the follower and make an educated guess?
    Mostly, I don't do dips and drops except by accident, when trying to lead something else. Normally I manage to say "no" before it gets to that point. Otherwise, such accidents can end up with my partner on the floor, and me standing over her making sure she doesn't get kicked. Maybe once in a dozen songs the music and the dance and my partner line up nicely, and I will lead a small dip. I found that the common response to "do you do dips" is confusion or disapproval, and therefore don't ask the question any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    For follows, are you happy to do dips and drops in your dance and, if so, do you expect to be asked by the lead beforehand or are you happy to take whatever move comes your way?
    When I follow, I find that almost nobody asks for permission. Specifically, CJ and Dai asked, and nobody else did. I gave the same response to both (roughly "uh, well I'm really bad at taking my own weight, but if you want to try..."). CJ then led entirely upright stuff, while Dai led a variety of drops mixed with other moves. Meanwhile, plenty of people have led dips and leans on me, and a few people have led drops on me, and once I was led into a very baby 'aerial', all without permission. Because I am not insane, I base my expectations as a follower on what actually happens, rather than theoretical etiquette that doesn't happen. Sometimes I mis-follow and think there is a lead for a dip when there is not, much to my chagrin, despite my partner not having asked permission to lead a dip. If I am led something that appears dangerous to me, I don't follow it.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    FWIW, I do 2 different things. If it's a dancer I know, then I'll ask asap if they're OK with dips and drops tonight. If I don't know the dancer, I'll dance a few moves and gauge the following and, more importantly, the frame. If apppropriate, I will then ask if she's OK with dips and drops.

    Maybe a little hotshotesque, I dunno... but having danced with the level of pain a prolapsed disc brings for 9 months, I feel OK taking steps to protect myself and my partner.

    That said, I think in the last 12 months there have been a handful of occasions I haven't asked and got lost in the music before I've taken the time to ask.
    I haven't danced with CJ much (maybe 3 times) but I'm impressed by the way he always asks how you feel about dips n drops tonight. I've mentioned this approach to a few people recently (though oddly, not many men) .
    A lot of guys seem to think that once they've dipped / dropped you once that you're always fit for it. Sadly I think a lot of 'those' guys won't be on the forum.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Maybe a little hotshotesque, I dunno... but having danced with the level of pain a prolapsed disc brings for 9 months, I feel OK taking steps to protect myself and my partner.
    I don't know why you would worry that it might sound 'hotshotesque' (btw, I like that word ) To my mind, it shows a level of respect, which I admire!

    The thing is, I'll be perfectly honest, there's some guy's I like doing drops with and there some guys I don't.

    Maybe they're great at doing drops with lots of other ladies but if I don't feel I'm going to be safe, then I don't want to be subjected to it against my will!

    So, even if a guy sees me do drops with 10 guys before he dances with me, he should still ask!
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    From the other thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Possibly, but anything that get the follow leaning to the side or back could cause damage, so that could include dips.
    More generally, anything could cause damage, so that includes everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    It's just safer to ask, and in the Peter Philips dvds he makes this point very clearly...........
    Perhaps you would care to quote his exact words on a specific DVD where he says that you should ask for permission before leading dips (as opposed to drops or seducers)?

    Here's some of Peter's advice for followers:
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Phillips
    Always Tell your partner clearly if you do or dont dance drops, seducers, lifts etc.
    As with his advice for leaders, in my experience, the vast majority of followers ignore this advice, for which I am very thankful. The man is a persuasive genius, and should surely enter politics.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Why am I called 'Revdrop'?.....hmmmmm... I wonder?!

    Basic rule I try to follow and also teach whenever teaching others about dips and drops is the lead must always ask before doing any drops, for a multitude of good reasons. I usually ask fairly early on in the dance, once I've worked out whether the follow is reasonably experienced and/or competent and/or able to be dropped, something like, 'Are you OK with dips and drops?'. I would ask this even if I've danced with some-one 100 times on previous occasions... you never know whether they might have injured themselves that particular week/night... so you have to ask. If I'd never danced with some-one before, and they said it was OK, I would try something simple to start with and see how they cope with that before trying anything more complex.

    Follows need to 'feel good', and if they 'feel good' they will usually 'look good'. They won't 'feel good' if leads just haul them around into drops without any musicality or style... and so they won't look good either if a lead adopts this sort of approach.

    I have A4 sheets of guidance for leads and follows - some basic rules for drops. PM me if you want a copy... or I could post on the forum somehow if anyone was interested?

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    I make a judgment call based on how well I know my partners, how crisp the other elements of their dancing is and whether I think there is any external danger involved.

    I do not ask. I am an inconsiderate, bad man.

    Surprisingly enough, this is the way pretty much everyone around these part operates, and it works. Go figure.

    This is taken from the fantastic if somewhat lengthy thread here: http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=11235

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir
    I’m not endorsing social aerials, but here are some interesting points related to the discussion:

    In New Zealand doing drops is the norm, although large aerials are banned at freestyles. (at least when I was there.) I would probably do 3 or 4 drops of all kinds, on new partners, every track. I remember there was one teacher who never did any drops and he was famous for it. That is how unusual it was not to do drops. You could be famous for it!

    It appears (from videos) that drops and mini-aeriels are fairly common in Australian ceroc too.

    Old video’s of Rock n Roll and Lindy hop socials make it look like they were attempting pretty crazy aerials all the time.

    Watching professional and amateur Latin ballroom couples train (out where Nicole Cutler dances), I was surprised to see how often they collide. And those guys move fast!

    Drops and aerials are taught in modern jive classes by lots of teachers, so its not surprising that if someone thinks he can pull one of safely, then he will.

    Whether we do drops and aerials depends on their perceived value to the dance scene, and the amount of risk that scene is willing to accept.

    I was never injured or caused injury in NZ doing drops etc, and am now too lazy to bother with them, but I can boast that:

    I have broken my partner’s nose doing a man’s spin.
    I bruised another girl’s eye doing a free spin
    I have kicked and been kicked in the shins attempting ganchos
    I have repetitive strain injury in my forearm from ceroc and wcs girls who pull too hard
    I got sore knees trying to increase turn out for ballet
    I got shin splits trying to deepen my plie
    I’ve had twisted ankles from landing badly in jumps
    I once stretched so hard I could hardly walk for a few days
    I regularly bruise my ego attempting things I can’t do yet
    Which sums my views up more succinctly than I probably would have.

    I’ll make the same comment here that I did in the previous thread – I’ve seen far more serious injuries as a result of stray elbows and trodden on achilles tendons than anything dip/drop related.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    When I teach dips, I always repeatedly point out that guys should ask before doing dips. And, from the other side of the coin, girls should never throw themselves into dips.

    Hence, when I'm dancing, I mostly ask first. Sometimes girls throw themselves into dips when I'm not leading them. And occasionally, I also have to admit that I do forget.

    However, once I've asked once, and been given permission, I feel that it then becomes the girls responsibility to inform me if the circumstances have changed, and she does not want to do dips any more.

    The one thing guarenteed to annoy me on the dancefloor, is intermediate guys who put beginner ladies into dips and worse, whether they ask them first or not. If you want to impress new ladies guys, learn to dance, because I find that it's usually guys that can't dance well who do this. Caveman approach to picking up a partner or something??

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I make a judgment call based on how well I know my partners, how crisp the other elements of their dancing is and whether I think there is any external danger involved.
    I'm similar. With people I don't know well, I build up through relatively innocuous dips, to major drops. With people I don't know well, the most I'm likely to do is a minor lean or dip; I don't consider them particularly dangerous.
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I do not ask. I am an inconsiderate, bad man.
    Me too.

    I'm OK with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    The one thing guarenteed to annoy me on the dancefloor, is intermediate guys who put beginner ladies into dips and worse... Caveman approach to picking up a partner or something??
    There are a few guys where I dance now that do that habitually. Not only is it obnoxious and cavemanish, their technique is particularly bad. I do find in the UK, when compared to NZ, the standard that dips and drops are taught to is significantly lower: the emphasis on doing them properly - ie good technique (which is the best way to avoid injury) - is much lower. Hence, I'm far less comfortable leading drops in this country than I am in NZ.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    However, once I've asked once, and been given permission, I feel that it then becomes the girls responsibility to inform me if the circumstances have changed, and she does not want to do dips any more.
    Yes, thinking about it, I'd go along with that

    But i can't help it, everytime someone mentions drops, I instantly think about a certain guy, who makes me shudder.

    Firstly he doesn't ask, secondly he has zero floor-craft, the drops bear no relationship to the music whatsoever, he always feels off balance and lastly, once he starts, he's hesitant and slow... in fact NOTHING's right about it!

    I've realised now, I have to remind him EVERYTIME, "sorry, no drops please " and then I know I'm going to be subjected to the same old conversation/argument But your good, you can do them, I've seen you.... blah blah blah ARGH!!!
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    From the other thread:

    As with his advice for leaders, in my experience, the vast majority of followers ignore this advice, for which I am very thankful. The man is a persuasive genius, and should surely enter politics.
    Peter is no longer in to MJ. I share a venue with him once a month where he does a 60's video disco. He's not to bad at it either.

    I have banned dips and drops along with aerials at my venues. I have it written in the welcome pack that I hand out to new dancers. I have seen too many beginners either getting thrown in to a drop by men who want to show off or by new men copying what the more experianced men are doing.

    I only allow drops to be done if I know the couple well enough to know they are sensible or if they have been to a dips and drops workshop with us where I spend the first 10 minutes telling them about saftey etc.

    IMHO I think that drops are pretty unneccasery for a good dance. They dont really add much. I don't mind taking the odd dip and drop as a follower but will only do it with the dancer I am with.

    As a leader I never lead them (bar a few with Claire). I used to but have grown up abit.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post

    The one thing guarenteed to annoy me on the dancefloor, is intermediate guys who put beginner ladies into dips and worse, whether they ask them first or not. If you want to impress new ladies guys, learn to dance, because I find that it's usually guys that can't dance well who do this. Caveman approach to picking up a partner or something??

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    I can't speak for other franchises, but down this way, the two Ceroc and Mojive plus three fair sized independant franchises, they very rarely teach drops these days. There are been a definite seachange from when I started as drops were fairly common then.

    I don't know whether this is linked to insurance and reducing the chance of injury (the rumour), or that they have just dropped out of fashion.

    Personally, I got bored with them a long time ago. I do get rather unsubtle hints from time to time. It's obvious a large number of ladies do like drops, and if the hint is really unsubtle, I'll chuck in a coupla simple ones. So my answer would be I don't ask because I don't do. But if a lady asks me, I'll satisfy her

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I’ve seen far more serious injuries as a result of stray elbows.
    I'll thank you to keep my elbows out of this. Go pick on someone else's

    On a more serious note, I think it bears mentioning that on more than one occasion, I've known minor injuries to be caused by badly led / forced drops, and the girls concerned decided to do the polite thing and not actually say anything. (On one notable evening, two friends of mine had their backs wrenched quite badly by the same guy, leading the same drop on each of them. And yet - not only did they not want to tell him, but they refused to point him out to me, in case I did decide to speak to him. Go figure.)

    So - it's quite possible it happens more than you think.

    Myself, I'll lead the occasional drop with a partner I know very well. Aside from that, I limit myself to the odd minor dip.

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I have banned dips and drops along with aerials at my venues. I have it written in the welcome pack that I hand out to new dancers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I only allow drops to be done if I know the couple well enough to know they are sensible or if they have been to a dips and drops workshop with us where I spend the first 10 minutes telling them about saftey etc.
    sorry lee i dont understand are people allowed to do them at your venues or not and out of interest how do you stop them

    if you have banned them why are you still selling dips and drops workshops?
    as no one is allowed to use them at your venues

    This is one of my points with ceroc banning air steps

    I paid £150 to ceroc for my wife and i to do the two lift drops and seducers workshops (we did the first one twice which included over an hour of safety stuff) including moves that i am not alowed to do at any ceroc venue

    whats going to be banned next, the man spin?
    thats just as dangerous as more accidents happen with that move than any other in ceroc

    i do however agree that they should not be taught in a general class situation but need the time and intensity of a workshop just to get the basic safetly points right

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I have seen too many beginners either getting thrown in to a drop by men who want to show off or by new men copying what the more experianced men are doing.
    me too but dont know how you can stop this

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    (On one notable evening, two friends of mine had their backs wrenched quite badly by the same guy, leading the same drop on each of them. And yet - not only did they not want to tell him, but they refused to point him out to me, in case I did decide to speak to him. Go figure.)
    I know its madness but I completely understand how those girls feel.

    I feel bad every time, I politely refuse someone. I don't know why but feel like I'm insulting them which does NOT feel good
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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I feel bad every time, I politely refuse someone. I don't know why but feel like I'm insulting them which does NOT feel good
    dont think you have ever refused me
    and you should never feel bad about protecting your own safety

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    Re: Dips and Drops - Do You or Don't You?

    If the girlies are capable of asking a guy to dance they should be capable of saying up front 'I don't do drops' albeit with the possible subtext of 'I do usually but not with you you f**kwit'.

    It just seems the most sensible approach as more women do them than not.

    Someone else has said what comes next, do you ask if they like to spin, etc - I was told by someone once 'I don't do drops (fair enough) and I don't do spinning' ! What the **** was she doing at an MJ evening !

    The sound of steps is me coming down off my soapbox.

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