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Thread: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

  1. #41
    Registered User Mary's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    I'm hanging in rags at the mo, so I may not be terribly coherent (no change there) but here is my opinion. WCS has now become a rapidly growing phenomenon, accelerated by the number of fantastic US pros coming over to teach, who also happen to be great teachers and can cope well with teaching specific concepts to a very large class. Testament to this is the consistently large attendance at the WCS workshops (at weekenders that is). The WCS "community" has been growing rapidly in the last year or two, probably exponentially, to the point where the regular workshops are very well-attended and there are enough people to support regular freestyle events, certainly down south, and I think a growing number further north. And there are more classes opening up all the time.

    There are now enough people interested to support a growing number of dedicated weekend events, with 2 new ones starting this year in the form of conventions along the lines of the ones in the US - yay, we don't have to fork out megabucks to go to a US convention now (which I've never been to btw).

    I think it's very likely that, before long, the WCS element of a principally MJ weekender will diminish because there will be enough dedicated WCS events going on. It wasn't that long ago that there were only a few MJ weekenders in the year - now there's one just about every weekend! However, for the time being, there are lots of people who are do not live in any of the few areas where there are regular WCS classes/workshops that look to the weekenders as an opportunity to be able to further their interest in the dance style.

    I was really pleased when Wes announced that he was making a slot in 'Arthurs' (the latin room) dedicated to WCS. I don't think anyone suffered because when I popped in there on the Friday at a similar time it was empty and they were about to pack up! Jaks (the WCS/Blues room, whatever you want to call it) didn't really do it for me.

    I enjoyed the bit of Tango and Waltz's I did in Arthurs though.

    Must get some sleep.

    M

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post


    As a young Lady said to me, every time you have a dance you should try to make this dance the best that you can regardless of the person that you are dancing with. I would like to think that I try my best
    I think you are, but I am also learing to look at others actions in other directions. (thanks to Shaz)

    I Thank you for your comments, they are much appreciated, if this is truly the case Gerry then please understand when you are freestyling with a guy and he stops you half way through to tell you your not doing it right its humiliating and a crushing confidence blow,(unless you have specificaly asked for help before hand) you may think your helping, but from your partners point of view you have made them feel unworthy (maybe that's why people think your hotshoty) we all feel every one is watching us when we dance in reality there not, some of your partners feel like you have embarrassed them to onlookers.


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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary View Post

    I think it's very likely that, before long, the WCS element of a principally MJ weekender will diminish because there will be enough dedicated WCS events going on. It wasn't that long ago that there were only a few MJ weekenders in the year - now there's one just about every weekend! However, for the time being, there are lots of people who are do not live in any of the few areas where there are regular WCS classes/workshops that look to the weekenders as an opportunity to be able to further their interest in the dance style.
    The key question is how long does WCS get to biggy bank on the back of Jive ?

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    The key question is how long does WCS get to biggy bank on the back of Jive ?
    By the sounds of it MJ seems to be doing a fair bit of it's own piggy backing. Perhaps you should go out and find your own Pro headliners?

    Or failing that, perhaps it would be wise to not throw stones in the glass house we're both living in...?

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Pick up your dummy
    DB, I'll admit the comment above was a bit cheeky but to neg-rep it on the basis of being 'patronising' is a real stone throw from a glasshouse dweller given:

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Good, and don't do it again
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes. I made that point also.
    But can we please stop talking about bleedin' Jive bleedin' Addiction all the time and focus on the general point?
    Am I talking to myself here?
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Fine, I give up.
    Let's have two Skegness aftermath threads then.
    You seemed determined to want to steer the direction of people's contributions to the thread in a certain way when I (and, I imagine, others) felt it was progressing perfectly well without such interference.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    You seemed determined to want to steer the direction of people's contributions to the thread in a certain way.
    Yeah. Funny that.

    Maybe I should, I dunno, be a moderator or something, it'd give me a way of focussing my energy.

    And you know what the FAQ has to say about publicly-complaining about neg reps, I'm sure.

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    You seemed determined to want to steer the direction of people's contributions to the thread in a certain way when I (and, I imagine, others) felt it was progressing perfectly well without such interference.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yeah. Funny that.

    Maybe I should, I dunno, be a moderator or something, it'd give me a way of focussing my energy.
    All well and good but there is a difference between reining people in when they break forum rules and trying to dictate the direction of a discussion that is lively and perfectly relevant just as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    And you know what the FAQ has to say about publicly-complaining about neg reps, I'm sure.
    Of course I do (though I don't understand why it's like that). And I am sure you know that publicly complaining about it usually brings you in sufficient pos-rep in sympathy to outweigh the neg

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Basically, the Blues room before midnight will have "Chill-Out" music, suitable for both MJ and WCS, then from 11:30pm it becomes "Pure & Eclectic Blues".

    The WCS dancers have to wait an hour while a Tango milonga goes on, then the latin room becomes the WCS music room at 12:30am.

    This sounds like a good compromise, similar to the tent JA had last year, but without having to go outside...
    Back to the original question. What Ducasi is describing for Cerocport would, in my view, go a long way to address something that clearly upset a lot of people at JA Skegness. And if I'd not just blown my weekender budget for Q1 it would be something that might tempt me to make the trip up and suffer the vagaries of Southport accommodation.

    Personally, I didn't get a sufficient Blues fix this weekend just gone and it reduced my sense of enjoyment - although it was a long way from spoling my weekend. In fact to get the fix I was out dancing again last night at SnowWhite's Blues class despite being sore in places I'd forgotten I had. I'm not a hotshot , I think I can pretty much dance and play to any music that would feature in a Blues or WCS set despite not dancing any WCS, and I did so at the weekend fine. However, the general balance of sets for me needed more full-on Blues and to be honest if I can't get it at my chosen weekender I'll probably simply choose to go play at extra freestyles instead. If Cerocport fixes this issue, and JA doesn't then I'll be going to Southport once more.

    As to the peaceful cohabitation of Blues and WCS on the floor - my view is that there is no reason why not as long as people cut each other a bit of slack and practise rudimentary floorcraft. This was sadly missing at the weekend in Jaks despite the floor being packed with lots of technically good dancers. Mind you I've not seen much consideration and floorcraft at the majority of the weekenders and freestyles I've been to so maybe in the world of the hotshot floorcraft is for others.

    Agent 000
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Arthers was empty once the tango kicked in. I think a couple of times there was only a handful of ATT dancing (approx 20). Its a waste of space and TBH i think arthers could have been given much more specific dance slots.

    WCS is quite a popular dance now. Its done by quite a lot of MJ's also. But i do feel the two do NOT mix. Firstly the dance space itself is not sufficient ie: cross dancing or slot dancing with Jive dancing is straight away going to cause problems. But also the music for blues and WCS is so different and one can not do the other.

    I think they need to be completely seperated and given their own space/djs. Time slots do not work really as the cross over is diluted and so are the dancers.

    It would be nice to nip over to WCS for a change and then nip back to blues if it was so fancied.

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    WCS is quite a popular dance now. Its done by quite a lot of MJ's also. But i do feel the two do NOT mix. Firstly the dance space itself is not sufficient ie: cross dancing or slot dancing with Jive dancing is straight away going to cause problems. But also the music for blues and WCS is so different and one can not do the other.

    I think they need to be completely seperated and given their own space/djs. Time slots do not work really as the cross over is diluted and so are the dancers.
    Blues Music works for Blues dancers as well as WCS dancers

    WCS music will work for WCS dancers and depending on the tempo for MJ dancers.
    WCS music DOES NOT work for blues dancers period

    It really is very simple, look at Utopia and the Sunday Chill for two wonderful examples of where it can work

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    WCS is quite a popular dance now. Its done by quite a lot of MJ's also. But i do feel the two do NOT mix. Firstly the dance space itself is not sufficient ie: cross dancing or slot dancing with Jive dancing is straight away going to cause problems. But also the music for blues and WCS is so different and one can not do the other.

    I think they need to be completely seperated and given their own space/djs. Time slots do not work really as the cross over is diluted and so are the dancers.
    Actually, I think most of us agree that there's a floorcraft issue with mixing the two dances in one room. Apart from the timing and the extra space requirement, MJ is often danced non-slotted, which means a different set of conventions apply regarding floorcraft ("See a space - take a space!" basically).

    And on top of that, a lot of WCS dancers are (in WCS) not that experienced, so they're likely to be less floorcraft-savvy in WCS anyway. I know that my AT floorcraft is still sadly lacking, even after doing 3 years of it.

    So it's not surprising that there's a clash. Basically, if you get significant numbers of dancers doing two different dances on a floor, you're going to get problems.

    The solution is obvious - don't mix and match dances so much.

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    And on top of that, a lot of WCS dancers are (in WCS) not that experienced, so they're likely to be less floorcraft-savvy in WCS anyway.
    There was a lot of that in the blues room at Skeggy. The floor craft generally was poor and you got the usual look from WCS'ers who knock into you - "Get out of my way pond life, I am far superior to you"

    I say murder all WCS'ers and replace them with Lindy Hoppers. They smile when they dance and everything!

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Blues Music works for Blues dancers as well as WCS dancers

    WCS music will work for WCS dancers and depending on the tempo for MJ dancers.
    WCS music DOES NOT work for blues dancers period

    It really is very simple, look at Utopia and the Sunday Chill for two wonderful examples of where it can work
    Sorry Gerry but I have to disagree on the idea behind this post. Music is music, granted there are different rhythms, tempos and timeing structures, the spread of music that is good for dancing WCS to is almost as vast as that which MJ can be danced to. I love pure blues music (12 Bar Blues) for dancing WCS to and many of my favourite tracks are also big favourites in the MJ community. I think that the problem in Jaks lay in DJs trying to please everyone and ending up pleasing noone. By adding the WCS, Blues and Smooth Jive label to Jaks then it should have been assumed that a mix of music would have been played. I wouldn't expect to want to dance to every track or for each style of dance to be able to dance to every track. What I wanted was a mix and what people seem to be complaining about is that everything was the same. I have offten found that good music transends dance styles and this was highlighted at the weeekend when a good track would come on and a sparsley populated floor would become filled with people dancing many different styles. I also find it interesting that many MJ dancers complained that Friday night in Jaks was the worst for too much WCS music when I (and several other WCS dancers) found that Friday night in Jaks was the worst for not enough WCS music.

    The issue of WCS and MJ coexisting on the same floor is a bit of a strange point as MJ is a dance that is open to many different interpretations as to how it is danced and many people travel quite a lot when they are dancing. Good floorcraft is all that is required and a bit of common sense which is why I always try to dance WCS along the edges at MJ events.

    Personally I would rather see the 2 main rooms (Reds and Jaks) with a theme such as high energy music for Reds and Chilled out music for Jaks. I loved having a place to dance pure WCS on Sunday night and Richard played a great set to a room that was busy right up till the end of his set.

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    There was a lot of that in the blues room at Skeggy. The floor craft generally was poor and you got the usual look from WCS'ers who knock into you - "Get out of my way pond life, I am far superior to you"

    I say murder all WCS'ers and replace them with Lindy Hoppers. They smile when they dance and everything!
    Did I not Smile at you when I danced WCS with you

    WCS comes from Lindy, we just swing in a straight Line.

    Have you ever noticed how when people first learn Lindy they dont smile much either.....

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    The floor craft generally was poor and you got the usual look from WCS'ers who knock into you - "Get out of my way pond life, I am far superior to you"

    I say murder all WCS'ers and replace them with Lindy Hoppers. They smile when they dance and everything!
    ... except the murder bit ! The Lindy Hoppers do smile don't they !

    I went to Utopia at Evesham a couple of weeks ago and a guy I remember from Ashtons as an uber good dancer was doing his very capable westie thing BUT was taking up what seemed like f**king half of an already small floor, a complete disregard for the other dancers around him. Had I at that moment been dancing with DTS instead of the Batgirl I would of sent him spinning off as a human weapon to knock the twat over, as it was the Batgirl and i mused over the expletives that could be used in a WCS TLA. Ideas on a postcard please !

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusj View Post
    I went to Utopia at Evesham a couple of weeks ago and a guy I remember from Ashtons as an uber good dancer was doing his very capable westie thing BUT was taking up what seemed like f**king half of an already small floor, a complete disregard for the other dancers around him. Had I at that moment been dancing with DTS instead of the Batgirl I would of sent him spinning off as a human weapon to knock the twat over, as it was the Batgirl and i mused over the expletives that could be used in a WCS TLA. Ideas on a postcard please !
    Maybe we should all recount the hundreds of times that we have been crashed into by MJ dancers even when standing still or when they walk onto the floor backwards or maybe even when they freespin their partner with no regard for their safety or that of the surounding dancers! Bad floorcraft exists in all dance styles and we all have unfortunately have been on the receiving end of it at one time or another.

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by DS87 View Post
    Maybe we should all recount the hundreds of times that we have been crashed into by MJ dancers even when standing still or when they walk onto the floor backwards or maybe even when they freespin their partner with no regard for their safety or that of the surounding dancers! Bad floorcraft exists in all dance styles and we all have unfortunately have been on the receiving end of it at one time or another.
    I dont think anybody does this on purpose. I think the dances themselves do not fit. They are totally different in footwork and WCS does not allow last minute changes to the move that easily. ie: Cross body, once your going your going and not a lot will change that.

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by DS87 View Post
    Maybe we should all recount the hundreds of times that we have been crashed into by MJ dancers even when standing still or when they walk onto the floor backwards or maybe even when they freespin their partner with no regard for their safety or that of the surounding dancers! Bad floorcraft exists in all dance styles and we all have unfortunately have been on the receiving end of it at one time or another.
    Hello DS87 - I agree with what you've said but it's sort of missing the point, westie man only bumped into me once, no real problem with that as it happens all the time, the problem for me was that he thought he was entitled to so much space on a crowded floor in the first place !

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    There was a lot of that in the blues room at Skeggy. The floor craft generally was poor and you got the usual look from WCS'ers who knock into you - "Get out of my way pond life, I am far superior to you"
    It's possible that a lot of this tension arises because of a difference in floorcraft conventions - as I understand it, in WCS you stake out your slot, then pretty much stick to that slot like glue, and other dancers respect that - is that about it? What floorcraft conventions are taught in typical WCS classes?

    In MJ, it's much more fluid - for example I usually dance on a rotating slot basis, depending on the space that's available at that moment.

    So it's quite imaginable that this MJ "rotating slot" model quite legitimately intrudes into the WCS "fixed slot" model, resulting in collision - simply because of a different set of requirements. Neither side is right or wrong, they're simply using different assumptions.

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusj View Post
    ... except the murder bit ! The Lindy Hoppers do smile don't they !

    I went to Utopia at Evesham a couple of weeks ago and a guy I remember from Ashtons as an uber good dancer was doing his very capable westie thing BUT was taking up what seemed like f**king half of an already small floor, a complete disregard for the other dancers around him. Had I at that moment been dancing with DTS instead of the Batgirl I would of sent him spinning off as a human weapon to knock the twat over, as it was the Batgirl and i mused over the expletives that could be used in a WCS TLA. Ideas on a postcard please !
    Helpful i dont think

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