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Thread: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Cool WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    It's been said before about the JA Southport, and it's being said again about Eclipse in Skegness... There is an apparent conflict between MJ dancers and WCS dancers over space and music in the "blues" room...*

    Ceroc published the running order for DJs and classes at Blush in Southport last week, and they have an interesting solution to this problem...

    Basically, the Blues room before midnight will have "Chill-Out" music, suitable for both MJ and WCS, then from 11:30pm it becomes "Pure & Eclectic Blues".

    The WCS dancers have to wait an hour while a Tango milonga goes on, then the latin room becomes the WCS music room at 12:30am.

    This sounds like a good compromise, similar to the tent JA had last year, but without having to go outside...

    I think it will work well, just so long as the WCS folks don't mind the odd jiver in "their" room as they quite like that music...

    What are your thoughts on the problem, this solution, or do you have a better solution?


    (*Personally, I've never seen it as a big problem, except the WCS dancers in front of the bar tended to block the way to the bar and doors a bit – maybe a bit of carpet could have helped there...)
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Good idea for a thread Ducasi.

    I don't think it will be an issue at Blush though, simply because there are likely to be so few of the usual WCS crowd going (by usual WCS crowd I mean people who would regularly attend JA Southport and dance WCS the majority of the night) Of course there are lots of people taking up WCS at different places around the country but the attitude and enthusiasm towards social dancing varies. The 'WCS room' at Blush could be pretty sparsely populated....

    I think Stewart38 has gone over the top a wee bit with his posts on the issue (how must people with personal experience of cancer feel about your description Stewart?) but I think he has a point. There are floorcraft issues when the floor is busy and a mixed WCS/MJ crowd. Eclipse and the other weekenders are MJ events but when your headline teachers are US WCS Pros (as is the case at Eclipse and Blush) and a lot of the more interesting music that is played is suitable for dancing both styles you can see why lots of WCS dancers come to these events. Personally, I solved the space issue by just not dancing at peak times. A bit extreme and clearly wouldn't work for everyone but I never enjoy dancing on a crowded floor so I was fine with it.

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    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    I think the CerocPort solution seems like a good idea. I've only had a few WCS classes, and not really attempted any in freestyle (apart from once at Breeze in the chill out/blues room which was ok as it wasn't too crowded at the time).
    As someone who'd like to try a bit more WCS it seems like a more approachable way/room that I'd feel more comfortable trying WCS in than somewhere that was obviously full of pure WCS dancers.

    I reckon the space issue is probably more due to lack of spatial awareness by the dancers at the time - whether it's jivers or westies

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    Registered User FunkyAngel's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post

    Basically, the Blues room before midnight will have "Chill-Out" music, suitable for both MJ and WCS, then from 11:30pm it becomes "Pure & Eclectic Blues".

    The WCS dancers have to wait an hour while a Tango milonga goes on, then the latin room becomes the WCS music room at 12:30am.

    What are your thoughts on the problem, this solution, or do you have a better solution?
    Probably a moot point as RobD has pointed out because most of the hardcore westies aren't planning on going. As a hypothetical solution, I'd say it works great right up until 3:30am. If the WCS room then closes as advertised, you will have a bunch of westies piling back in to the blues room en masse just in time for Rocky to start playing his 3:30am set (if I've read the programme right). Might interrupt the bluesy chilled out vibe a bit...

    I'd rather dance WCS than blues, but I'd have thought that the time you want the westies out of the way is late night in the blues room when you want to chill out? You'd be better off with mixed dancing midnight to 3am and a dedicated swing room after that if you ask me. And I personally don't really care what you play before midnight...

    FunkyAngel

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    What are your thoughts on the problem, this solution, or do you have a better solution?
    Yes.

    WCS dancers need to stop sponging off MJ events, and get their own space, their own areas, and their own music, and stop impinging on MJ dancers.

    It wouldn't be acceptable for a group of AT-ers to suddenly start progressing around the room in a MJ environment, what makes it OK for groups of WCS-ers to dance big-slotted all over the place and similarly disrupt things? It's plain rude.

    This reached absurd heights last year at Southport, when there was a dedicated WCS room in the marquee, yet a lot of WCS-ers simply couldn't be bothered to go there and hogged the "blues" room instead.

    Whilst normally I profoundly disagree with Stewart38 on, well, almost everything, I think he's bang on when he says that the Blues Room needs to be about Modern Jive Blues, not about WCS.

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    WCS dancers need to stop sponging off MJ events, and get their own space, their own areas, and their own music, and stop impinging on MJ dancers.
    David, slight flaw in your argument. WCS dancers already have 'their own space, their own areas, and their own music,' but if a weekender features one of the best couples in the world as headline teachers and lots of their friends are also attending then it's not surprising that they will also attend the JA weekenders. You'll have seen from my previous post that I don't disagree that there is a floorcraft issue but I don't see how you view the WCS dancers as 'sponging' off MJ events given the teaching line up. I do think there's an interesting chicken and egg question around the music. So much of the music is suitable for WCS that is played in the blues room but is this because the Djs think it is good music per se or that they want to keep the WCS crowd happy?

    Oh, and I presume given your views on a mixed floor that you'll stop dancing aAT at Berko in future?

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yes.

    WCS dancers need to stop sponging off MJ events, and get their own space, their own areas, and their own music, and stop impinging on MJ dancers.

    It wouldn't be acceptable for a group of AT-ers to suddenly start progressing around the room in a MJ environment, what makes it OK for groups of WCS-ers to dance big-slotted all over the place and similarly disrupt things? It's plain rude.

    This reached absurd heights last year at Southport, when there was a dedicated WCS room in the marquee, yet a lot of WCS-ers simply couldn't be bothered to go there and hogged the "blues" room instead.

    Whilst normally I profoundly disagree with Stewart38 on, well, almost everything, I think he's bang on when he says that the Blues Room needs to be about Modern Jive Blues, not about WCS.

    Top man yourself Mr Bailey, could not have put it better.

    WCS seems to have an attitude of "Fit us in as we are the elite WCS mob".

    Go to a WCS weekend then you will not have anything to moan about will you. These are Jive weekends you are diluting for lots of people. Many of my friends do WCS but on the floor WCS is a nightmare for Jivers. To be honest I really don't care what you westies have to say about it, it is a jive weekend, if you dont like it, do all of us Jiver's and Blues dancers a big favour ......And don't dance WCS on a jive weekend.

    Organisers..HELLO! They are all Jive weekends, why are you pandering and grovelling to the westies, if you love them that much run a WCS weekend. How many times does this debate have to go on before somebody makes a decision and realises that it is a Jive weekend. For God's sake somebody somewhere make a fuc*ing decision on what your weekend is about. Same for Tango...Go on a Tango weekend.

    Now I know this sounds harsh but I go on Jive weekends, where I expect to dance Jive and Blues. It just seems that WCS and tango are taking over the Jive weekends.

    Ps I suppose a snog from Caro is well out of the question now?

    DTS XXX XXX

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    I wish I could thank Dave a thousand times for the Caro comment - priceless

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    David, slight flaw in your argument.
    Only one? I'm getting better

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    WCS dancers already have 'their own space, their own areas, and their own music,' but if a weekender features one of the best couples in the world as headline teachers and lots of their friends are also attending then it's not surprising that they will also attend the JA weekenders.
    Sure - actually, I think the JA weekenders are already effectively mixed WCS / MJ events anyway - I've said so in the past, several times. And that's fine. However, I think it's maybe a slight misrepresentation to not let the MJ-ers who attend know this. It'd maybe be more honest for JA to state this upfront.

    So JA events are special cases; I'm not really talking about them, I'm talking about general weekender events.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    You'll have seen from my previous post that I don't disagree that there is a floorcraft issue but I don't see how you view the WCS dancers as 'sponging' off MJ events given the teaching line up. I do think there's an interesting chicken and egg question around the music. So much of the music is suitable for WCS that is played in the blues room but is this because the Djs think it is good music per se or that they want to keep the WCS crowd happy?
    As I've also said, several times, this is a terminology issue.

    By all means, play WCS music, but don't then call it a Blues room. Again, it's misrepresentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Oh, and I presume given your views on a mixed floor that you'll stop dancing aAT at Berko in future?
    I've never danced AT at Berko in the Blues room, only at the tango practica there. So how can I stop doing it?

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Top man yourself Mr Bailey, could not have put it better.

    WCS seems to have an attitude of "Fit us in as we are the elite WCS mob".

    Go to a WCS weekend then you will not have anything to moan about will you. These are Jive weekends you are diluting for lots of people. Many of my friends do WCS but on the floor WCS is a nightmare for Jivers. To be honest I really don't care what you westies have to say about it, it is a jive weekend, if you dont like it, do all of us Jiver's and Blues dancers a big favour ......And don't dance WCS on a jive weekend.

    Organisers..HELLO! They are all Jive weekends, why are you pandering and grovelling to the westies, if you love them that much run a WCS weekend. How many times does this debate have to go on before somebody makes a decision and realises that it is a Jive weekend. For God's sake somebody somewhere make a fuc*ing decision on what your weekend is about. Same for Tango...Go on a Tango weekend.

    Now I know this sounds harsh but I go on Jive weekends, where I expect to dance Jive and Blues. It just seems that WCS and tango are taking over the Jive weekends.

    Ps I suppose a snog from Caro is well out of the question now?

    DTS XXX XXX
    If you want this type of Event DTS then go to a ceroc weekenders like Storm, Southport events by JA has been memorable largely due to the likes of Jordan and Tatiana, Kyle and Sarah,Robert and Nicola, Vincent and Flavia etc displaying amazing talents as teachers and dancers, Also it is no surprise that Ceroc have now followed JA`s lead in getting the Pro`s from the states over. But i`m guessing by your comments you`ve never been to any classes other than MJ classes, maybe you should try something new in terms of new classes then offer an informed decision.

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    Registered User jive-vee's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    I might be alone in this view but I actually quite like the mix of music in the Blues Room and the fact that people in there will dance both jive, blues and wcs. I'm learning wcs and it's nice to see it done well but it's also nice to see newbies trying it out - it makes it less intimidating and surely will only help the scene to grow.

    I like a lot of the tracks that the Westies seem to like and I like dancing to them too - whether that be my poor attempt at WCS, or just dancing jive or blues. Personally as a WCS beginner I would be less inclined to try dancing it socially if it meant going into a separate room which would mainly be full of fab Westies. Plus a lot of the people I love dancing with are really in WCS so if they were always in a separate room I'd never get to dance with them.

    As for the music I like there to be a mix of tempo throughout the night in the blues room - a little bit of the faster funkier stuff in the late night/early morning slots helps to perk me up and keep me going into the early hours.

    You're never going to please all of the people all of the time and, in general, people will say when they don't like something rather than when they do. The silent majority may love the mix of music as it is.

    I do think floorcraft is an issue but isn't that the case in most rooms anyway. A bit of consideration and people dancing "smaller" on a crowded floor would help.

    I'll shush now...

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I've never danced AT at Berko in the Blues room, only at the tango practica there. So how can I stop doing it?
    In which case, I apologise for my inaccurate assumption.

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    By all means, play WCS music, but don't then call it a Blues room. Again, it's misrepresentation.
    I thought the programme stated that Jaks would be playing smooth jive/wcs/blues so surely that would be what people would be expecting. I thought the music in there was fab particularly on Sunday between 2pm-8pm and from 4.30am to when it finished at 7.30ish

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    In which case, I apologise for my inaccurate assumption.
    Good, and don't do it again

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    If you want this type of Event DTS then go to a ceroc weekenders like Storm
    I thought we weren't discussing JA, but the more general issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by jive-vee View Post
    I do think floorcraft is an issue but isn't that the case in most rooms anyway.
    If you mix (most) dances, you compound the problem.

    Having a large proportion of WCS dancers in a MJ room is like having a large proportion of Cha Cha dancers there - they'll take up more room, and their patterns are also likely to be less predictable to MJers, so they cause disproportionate disruption.

    A large proportion of AT dancers would actually be worse, it'd be a nightmare in fact.

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    If you want this type of Event DTS then go to a ceroc weekenders like Storm, Southport events by JA has been memorable largely due to the likes of Jordan and Tatiana, Kyle and Sarah,Robert and Nicola, Vincent and Flavia etc displaying amazing talents as teachers and dancers, Also it is no surprise that Ceroc have now followed JA`s lead in getting the Pro`s from the states over. But i`m guessing by your comments you`ve never been to any classes other than MJ classes, maybe you should try something new in terms of new classes then offer an informed decision.
    Well FF stop guessing treacle I have tried WCS. Ceroc is diluting it's market by bowing down to the WCS again. The solution seems to be seperate rooms or better still seperate weekenders How long does this brain numbing sh1t need to go on before someone stands up and makes a decision. If anyone wants to progress into the upper eschelons of WCS then please do and leave us poor misguided jivers to our useless fumbling on the floor.

    Ps I do go to all of the Ceroc events, and I mean ALL of them sweetie, Princess, treacle. And the so called hot shot Yankie boys and girls of the WCS, lets have a look at them. Have you talked to little benji boy, he is not shy in telling you how rich and wonderfull he is.

    DTS XXX XXX
    Last edited by dave the scaffolder; 16th-February-2009 at 09:58 PM.

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    Registered User jive-vee's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Well FF stop guessing treacle I have tried WCS. Ceroc is diluting it's market by bowing down to the WCS again. The solution seems to be seperate rooms or better still seperate weekenders How long does this brain numbing sh1t need to go on before someone stands up and makes a decision. If anyone wants to progress into the upper eschelons of WCS then please do and leave us poor misguided jivers to our useless fumbling on the floor.

    Ps I do go to all of the Ceroc events, and I mean ALL of them sweetie, Princess, treacle. And the so called hot shot Yankie boys and girls of the WCS, lets have a look at them. Have you talked to little benji boy, he is not shy in telling you how rich and wonderfull he is.

    DTS XXX XXX
    Just my opinion but I like the jive addiction weekenders precisely because they offer more than just jive. I like the mix of music, the chance to try different dances if I wish, the level of teachers that are brought in (and the cabarets they perform and the fact that, on the whole, they are approachable and willing to join in with the spirit of the weekend and dance with the punters) and the range of abilities and styles of dancer that they attract. If a weekender was advertised as purely modern jive then I don't think that would appeal to me so much.

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Sorry about the rant folks but this debate has been going on for ever and ever. This is not any good for the jivers or the Westies. it is about time somebody, anybody grew a pair of b*lls and sorted it out instead of leaving us all in limbo.

    DTS XXX XXX

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by jive-vee View Post
    Just my opinion but I like the jive addiction weekenders precisely because they offer more than just jive.
    Mmmm, and to be fair to JA, they don't specifically say they run MJ weekenders, they say they run "dance weekenders".

    But again, can we focus on the more general issue not just JA stuff? There's a whole aftermath thread for JA.

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    Re: WCS vs MJ dancers – the CerocPort solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Well FF stop guessing treacle I have tried WCS. Ceroc is diluting it's market by bowing down to the WCS again. The solution seems to be seperate rooms or better still seperate weekenders How long does this brain numbing sh1t need to go on before someone stands up and makes a decision. If anyone wants to progress into the upper eschelons of WCS then please do and leave us poor misguided jivers to our useless fumbling on the floor.

    Ps I do go to all of the Ceroc events, and I mean ALL of them sweetie, Princess, treacle. And the so called hot shot Yankie boys and girls of the WCS, lets have a look at them. Have you talked to little benji boy, he is not shy in telling you how rich and wonderfull he is.

    DTS XXX XXX
    Your statement i tried WCS says it all to be honest, Most want to be able to dance WCS judging by the class numbers, it but few can do it well and like you just can`t be bothered! WCS is brain numbing because it engages the brain like most dance forms! What you have been unable to grasp is that that the best Jive teachers, ie the people who have taught you are heavily influenced by other dance forms, Simon and Nicole taught Coasters, Nigel and Nina are swing influenced, Amir is Tango influenced, etc etc They are all highly respected and great MJ teachers.

    Modern Jive is a fusion of other dancer forms, What you are saying is that lets not have any pro teachers/dancers or people to raise the level of Dancing in the MJ community, lets not have any WCS dancers/Tango dancers, but the reality is that there are people who are open minded who want to develop and progress and try new dance forms, This i would hope for most people portrays a far better MJ weekender IMHO.

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