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Thread: returning the same ol' borin' moves - NOT!!!

  1. #1
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    returning the same ol' borin' moves - NOT!!!

    Originally posted by Gary in the Upstairs Room
    I don't think any moves are special.
    Is that like saying 'all moves are special' or is it all to do with the way you're standing

    C'mon guys, how many moves do you need??? If you made all the moves you like into special ones, wouldn't that be enough - then you could work on some more.

    I agree that all moves should be viewed equally.

    How about "all moves are special" or (for intermediate dancers who know lots of moves) "get rid of any moves that aren't special". I'd include returns as 'moves' and get rid of those as well unless they're special. (it's always possible to resurrect that 1st move or basket, or introduce a return the minute you think of a way to make it special, but if you're only including it to add thinking space, why not think a bit quicker? )

    Gary's phrase reminded me of some other words of wisdom.

    A teacher who had a major influence on me once looked at my 'routine' and suggested,
    "Get rid of the unnecessary returns".
    "Which ones are those?"
    "All of them!"

    I never really looked back . . . Common wisdom in NZ from intermediate onwards and maybe Australia too, but tantamount to heresy amongst many dyed-in-the-wool ceroc and jive organsiations here. We see the same old return taught again and again. (yawn) I still use the odd tired old return instead of linking or interpreting but I'm getting better and can keep a partner's attention for longer and still make her feel 'natural'.

    So how many dancers try to concentrate on using only moves that are 'special' (whether it's a first move or a double-thingie-whatsit-pretzel-with-nuts-on)?

    If your excuse (guys) is 'I try to dance at my partner's level of ability or what's comfortable for her' errrrmmmm. . . that's an excuse!!

    (dons flak jacket and dives down rabbit hole)
    Last edited by Chris; 22nd-November-2003 at 07:49 AM.

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    Now for a completely opposite point of view.

    If all you do are 'flashy', or 'interesting' or 'special' moves (whatever you want to call them) then it quickly loses any interest to the spectator. The whole dance certainly does not become 'interesting' or 'special'. And after 30 seconds or so, the individual moves cease to be special, or even noticable.

    A dance needs contrast. It needs complexity, and also simplicity. It needs speed, but also slowness. It needs power, but also finesse.

    The best dancers in Ballroom, Lindy, WCS, Cabaret, ballet, jazz etc all have this contrast. Many of those considered the best in Modern Jive do not, and you can really see the difference. Every top teacher (in these other styles) I've listened to, whether in private lessons, or workshops, TV interviews, magazine articles, or just chatting, has talked about this 'light and shade' at some point.

    I don't know enough about the teaching or the dancers in Australia or NZ to know if this is their standard approach, and competition dancing is perhaps not the best thing to judge it on. Competitions encourage people to pack as many moves as possible into a song, because you don't know who might be watching.

    I would not agree with a teacher who told me to remove all the returns. I'd wonder if they wanted me to dance, or just advertise a moves video.

    David

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    Originally posted by DavidB
    Now for a completely opposite point of view . . .
    Phew! That was a quick response!

    I don't think I've come across any other single issue that I've heard top dancers disagree about so much, so good to get your response so quick!

    I can't quite manage David's years and expreience so I hope we get some balance of views rather than just salutations to the good Dr B!!

    (I'll bite my paw for a bit before daring to disagree openly with Dave!: )

    (difficult to concentrate as am having to watch two screens now England and Australia have kicked off)

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    Have to agree with David.

    But that's maybe because I only know 3 moves, and none of them are very flashy.

    Steve

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    Originally posted by TheTramp
    But that's maybe because I only know 3 moves, and none of them are very flashy.
    And one of them is probably a return.

    Chris

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    Originally posted by TheTramp
    Have to agree with David.

    But that's maybe because I only know 3 moves, and none of them are very flashy.

    Steve
    I guess you'll be addding a few boring returns to your reportoire then? (which seemed fairly absent in your light-n-shades jivemasters performance)

    or is that just a sloppy reply cos you're concentrating on the rugby?

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    Registered User JamesGeary's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    Many of those considered the best in Modern Jive do not, and you can really see the difference. Every top teacher (in these other styles) I've listened to, whether in private lessons, or workshops, TV interviews, magazine articles, or just chatting, has talked about this 'light and shade' at some point.
    That makes lots of sense.
    You know Hayley used to slap me whenever I did a return.
    Does this mean I can go and return all of her slaps to her now?

  8. #8
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    You know Hayley used to slap me whenever I did a return.
    Yeah, but did you make something of them?

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    Originally posted by DavidB
    If all you do are 'flashy', or 'interesting' or 'special' moves (whatever you want to call them) then it quickly loses any interest to the spectator. The whole dance certainly does not become 'interesting' or 'special'. And after 30 seconds or so, the individual moves cease to be special, or even noticable.

    A dance needs contrast. It needs complexity, and also simplicity. It needs speed, but also slowness. It needs power, but also finesse.

    The best dancers in Ballroom, Lindy, WCS, Cabaret, ballet, jazz etc all have this contrast. Many of those considered the best in Modern Jive do not, and you can really see the difference. Every top teacher (in these other styles) I've listened to, whether in private lessons, or workshops, TV interviews, magazine articles, or just chatting, has talked about this 'light and shade' at some point.
    All of which is true and also totally avoids the point, unless I didn't make it clearly enough.

    I'll use Trampy as an example (as he's managed to get himself at the very beginning of the Jivemasters video so easy to ref) - there's plenty of light and shade, plenty of contrast, speed and slowness, power and finesse and also closeness amd open space. But you are hard pressed to find an ordinary return or even a beginner's move that he hasn't made special or interesting(not necessarily flashy, which is not the same). Eg he started with a slow deliberate 'return' which would be quite boring were it not a contrast to what follows. In the second, faster record, there's maybe three 'basic' returns at a push. What he didn't do is stand there doing a basic return after every move.

    I'd have to trawl through severl hours of Cambers double sets probably to find DavdB, so he can claim to be boring if he wants - James (who I hadn't watched before JM) is around the middle I think so will have to check. I barely need to look to see if Miss Haslam padded her winning entry with boring moves or standard (ie as taught in a beginner's class) returns as a way of creating contrast lol - hardly! - ooops - she does promote her video a lot, but didn't stop to do it on this occasion.

    On a making returns special, this was a short list someone else came up with the last time I discussed it: "you can jump thru a return at several time markers, you can crouch, you can kneel, you can alter your spin and/or the angle of your head as you spin, you can scoop you spare foot along the floor."

    Even cerocshops try to give variations on the 16 basic seroc moves. But look at any freestyle (eg Blackpool clips) and what do you see: millions of octopuses, millions of returns, etc. People learn how to make them nice but teachers rarely point out that they can make all moves nice all the time (and still have lots of contrast.)

    If the top teachers who have disagreed with me so far really think that you should keep boring filler moves then I think you are practicing 'do as I say, not do as I do'.

    There are many regular teachers, on the other hand, that sincerely believe that if you do a basket or first move you have got to include a bog standard return straight afterwards as a matter of principle (and that it's not jive if you don't) - and it's their message that is getting through to the majority of intermediates, who carry on doing them rather than dancing like Trampy or DavidB (or probably James - have only seen you dance once so far mate - sorry - I doubt if you do include boring fillers though, especially as you won the Ceroc champs in London didn't you?)

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    So I am no longer mixing the good, bad and awful, I am now "imbuing the dance with contrast".

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    Originally posted by JamesGeary
    You know Hayley used to slap me whenever I did a return.
    Well what were you doing with your spare arm?

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    Some stats so far:

    (from JM video) 'basic' returns:
    ...................1st track......2nd track
    Rob&Nicky.....0....................2 (inc a travelling rtn)
    Amir& Tas......2....................?
    Mick&Cynty....1..................lots (but appropriate to their 'look')
    James&Kate..1....................7 (again, matched the 'look' - slightly rock 'n' rollish?)

    There's hardly anyone doing move-return, move-return, move-return . . .

    (Let me know if I've made my point yet and we might even discuss the ways - at least I would find that appropriate - especially as I got slagged for discussing 'technique' on the Upstairs 'fun' thread )

    After trawling thru the vid (lucky I had my index insert eh?) I went to bed and dreamt I was at a freestyle and my partner could follow any move except a return. I went aside and asked the taxi dancer for advice, shifting her weight slightly in the lead and stuff like that, but to no avail. She would follow any move I could think of, but if I led a return she looked at me blankly and said 'what do you want me to do' (and no amount of explaining would get it).

    This is true, but I thought I'd add it for all you forumites who are more addicted to having a laugh than discussing dance.

    ps does the 'slap' method really work?


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    Oh dear - looks like I've killed my own thread again
    (Chris - go to the back, and repeat, I must not be so serious, I must not be so serious, I must not be . . . )


    Sorry, guys, if I came over as too intense - not intentional!

    In defence of returns after every move (or most moves), there's a nice example on the original LeRoc How to Jive video - lots and lots of returns and it looks like old fashioned rock and roll nicely polished up (and the lovely lovely young DavidB & Lily dancing away there!)

    For a total contrast without getting flashy, check out the video examples of Jive Bug intermediate routines.

    Thanks for discussin' - hope I didn't sound too bolshy.

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    Returns

    IMHO, I think that returns are a tool to gi e us (the leads) a chance to prepare for the next move.
    A return is just a tun used as a linking move. I may swap hands, change where I am in relation to her, change the exit,, catch a spare hand...etc, but it’s the same mechanics as a turn.

    If you think on any turn in any move as the same thing as a ‘return’ {just in the middle of a move rather than a link}, then you have two new avenues to explore:
    - the return can be exited into the second half of any move that has a turn in it.
    - any move with a turn in it can be exited as if it’s a return.

    Very usefull, and I would never advocate cutting them out of any repertoire

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    Re: Returns

    Whee! Thanx Gadget for keeping the thread alive!

    Agreed with all of your post (except the last sentence) but you and most of the others that have responded make me feel I maybe gave the wrong impression.

    I'm not advocating the wholesale abolition of returns. Merely that getting rid of them at a certain stage is a useful learning tool (or teaching tool).

    This is my experience anyway - other people may not find it useful. I'm not advocating a 'policy' of getting rid of returns (although it would be nice IMO if intermediate teachers set an example by minimizing them far more once the class is at a certain level.)

    By deciding to consciously eliminate them at a sort of middle intermediate stage, a guy becomes more conscious of the points you and David made and, with practice, gets rid of the need to insert a return as a way of preparing for the next move (the preparation can be done as part of the preceding move and gives the guy more control). Once this becomes semi-automatic, returns can be re-introduced. Similar thing with beginners' moves that have become too 'bog-standard' in appearance - getting rid of them completely for a while until there is no need for them, then reintroducing them once the guy reinvents them and makes them his own.

    The other reason for introducing returns is to help the lady not become dizzy (a reason given formally in beginners classes). But when a woman has become more practiced in her spinning, she does not become dizzy even with several spins/turns, and can stop perfectly of her own accord, a fraction of a second before the next move, instead of the guy catching her momentum and giving her a balancing movement (eg a return).

    This presupposes that the lady has developed these skills - and it is something that is, I think, understandably more universal if spins are practiced as part of a warm up before every class.

    Another good argument for returns is to maintain a specific style - visible in rock and roll, west coast swing, and 'old' ceroc / leroc dancing.



    was that too intense??

    Originally posted by Gadget
    IMHO, I think that returns are a tool to gi e us (the leads) a chance to prepare for the next move.
    A return is just a tun used as a linking move. I may swap hands, change where I am in relation to her, change the exit,, catch a spare hand...etc, but it’s the same mechanics as a turn.

    If you think on any turn in any move as the same thing as a ‘return’ {just in the middle of a move rather than a link}, then you have two new avenues to explore:
    - the return can be exited into the second half of any move that has a turn in it.
    - any move with a turn in it can be exited as if it’s a return.

    Very usefull, and I would never advocate cutting them out of any repertoire
    If you say that all your returns are either special ones or, as I think you suggest(?), simply part of your next move, then I would agreee with that.

    (I'm not saying anyone who disagrees is wrong, just trying to inject a particular point of view)

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    Re: Re: Returns

    Originally posted by Chris
    If you say that all your returns are either special ones or, as I think you suggest(?), simply part of your next move, then I would agreee with that.
    I am saying that any return is a special one, in that it becomes an ending to one move and a start to another; The point I am making is that there is really no such thing as the 'return' - just an opportunity to move and prepare for the next move. {...it is not the spoon that bends...}

    I agree that the 'step back' after a return is probably surplus, but the return it's self is not.

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    Re: Re: Re: Returns

    Originally posted by Gadget
    I am saying that any return is a special one
    So if you interspersed every move with, say, a basket, would every basket be special?

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    Returns

    Some beginners in Ceroc regard returns as a way of balancing and rounding up a move whilst others see returns as a way of preparing themselves and their partner for the next move. In due course each person will have their repertoire of preferred moves to suit their own style of dancing.

    The style and repertoire will determine whether they use lots of returns, few or none at all. It seems to me that smooth and flowy dancers like David B and Viktor use returns and double returns so effectively that these become indistinguishable from any other part of the moves. I imagine that the girl must be swept away with the flow of the dance. Other good dancers use dramatic changes in tempo, multi turns and instant pauses. This style is probably less suited to returns, I don't really know as I am not at that level.

    The term return is probably a bit misleading because a standard return can be so easily disguised as a comb variation.

    I hope that I am making sense, this is my first contribution to the forum.

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    Re: Returns

    Originally posted by Andr
    I hope that I am making sense, this is my first contribution to the forum.
    Welcome, and don't bother about making sense: no-one else here does
    It seems to me that smooth and flowy dancers like David B and Viktor use returns and double returns so effectively that these become indistinguishable from any other part of the moves.
    Exactly: this is the point - returns are part of moves: just because some people "break" the flow of the dance by not smoothing the returns into/out of other moves, does not make the return 'bad'... possably the dancers...

    Originally posted by Chris
    So if you interspersed every move with, say, a basket, would every basket be special?
    damn, my secret's out!!
    A return only has one 'stage' - turn. A "Basket" has four stages - wrap in, twist, twist, unwrap. But if you take the essence of a basket, ie the double handed wrap-in, then it is "special". If you use this to flow between different moves, then it is acting as a 'return' and be just as special. Same can be said for any individual 'stage' of a move.

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    Re: Re: Returns

    Originally posted by Gadget
    Welcome, and don't bother about making sense: no-one else here does
    hey! speak for yourself

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