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Thread: Conspiracy theories

  1. #121
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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    ... An integer can be of arbitary finite size, but its size does have to be finite...
    Thanks for clearing that up. It seems that I did not learn that at school for whatever reason.

    If I had picked that up it would have been a big WHYmoment.

    I can see a disagreement about "what is an integer?" coming on, so perhaps more relevant is to look at 'counting numbers'. Conceptually, a 'counting number' is something that you can, well, count to. It might take some time, but eventually you'd get there. I hope you can see that you would never get to "111 recurring" by counting.
    To me counting is adding one to the last count. It is not a process that has to be finite.

    Let us not bother the forum further with why "arbitarily big" should be less than infinity, but no-one can tell me how much less. I may live long enough to read the books.

    My integers are bigger than yours - ya-ya-ya-yada.

  2. #122
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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
    Whatever your answer to that question I still maintain that unless people like Dr. Wakefield are prepared to stand up and say unpopular things, or things that may be unpopular at the time with their masters, then the chances that errors will one day come to light become diminished. Gastric ulcers were shown by an Aussie doctor to be largely caused by bacteria (the Helicobacters I believe) living in the gut some years ago. The medical establishment tried to ridicule his research, not least the pharmaceutical companies who made money out of gastric ulcer remedies (I used to work for one of these, and generally think they do a great job, but not always perhaps).
    Wakefield did not stand up and say an unpopular thing. He was and is engaged in an effort to line his own pockets at the expense of truth and health.

    And yes, the h. pylorum issue is always trotted out by anti-vaxxers, anti "big pharmas" and so forth as proof that those horrible doctor / scientist cohorts are really involved in keeping us all sick so they can get rich. And it is a salutory tale. But the plain fact is that the guy did not have good evidence to support his theory, until when he did have good evidence everyone sat up and took notice. Do we not, now, accept that h. pylorum causes ulcers, and treat accordingly? The point is that science and scientists may not be right at any given time, but it and they will get there. Anti-vaxxers are going to go on and on because they are (generally) stupid people who are deluded that they are clever enough to have spotted something those smug dome-heads who think they know everything have missed.

    But they haven't.

    God help us if more people stand up and say unpopular things in the same way Wakefield did. Thousands of children have been sick; many of them have been seriously damaged; two have died. That kind of unpopularity I am comfortable with.

  3. #123
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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    At this point I should probably point out that my Galois Theory supervisor at Cambridge
    Wow. They have PhDs working on theories about french cigarettes at Cambridge?

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Er... (emphasis mine)



    At this point I should probably point out that my Galois Theory supervisor at Cambridge was Richard Taylor, who was the guy who worked with Wiles to fix the problem with the original proof. I suspect I may know a little more about this than an A-level student.
    I want to completely agree with you, and acknowledge your superiority in regard to mathematics (and anything else you wish if that pleases you).

    My mathematical training stopped at O Level, both maths and applied maths, but I did scrape a physics A Level too somehow. Thereafter getting myself away from any further training in maths was absolutely necessary, as my head teacher was happy to accept when he had finished his attempts at instructing me (all I can probably remember now of what he told the class was that "mathematics was a language"). I do still feel I've benefitted from being able to handle simple equations, and have no difficulty with allowing the unknown figure to be called "X" and moving on from there (alot of people I know cannot fathom that simple step).

    As far as our short argument goes, and your desire to avoid my posts in future, that is entirely your prerogative, and I won't mind at all if you do so.

    I still believe there is something in my point about Andrew Wiles having to isolate himself, and I don't think this quote is spurious, wherever it came from:
    "You can't really focus yourself for years unless you have undivided concentration, which too many spectators would have destroyed"

    Can I just end by referring to Astro, and thanking him for his posts on the MMR debate, and my condolences for the loss he feels his family may have suffered which may have been connected to it.

  5. #125
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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
    Can I just end by referring to Astro, and thanking him for his posts on the MMR debate, and my condolences for the loss he feels his family may have suffered which may have been connected to it.
    Just - wow.

  6. #126
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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    You sure? One of 2^32-1 or 2^31-1 seems a lot more likely, to be honest.
    No-one likes a smartarse. Especially when he's right.

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Anti-vaxxers are going to go on and on because they are (generally) stupid people who are deluded that they are clever enough to have spotted something those smug dome-heads who think they know everything have missed.

    But they haven't.
    Can I just say Barry. I love you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    God help us if more people stand up and say unpopular things in the same way Wakefield did. Thousands of children have been sick; many of them have been seriously damaged; two have died. That kind of unpopularity I am comfortable with.
    I vote Barry for Prime Minister!

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    By the same token, I certainly have better things to do than try to convince someone against their will.
    That's pretty much what I said also.

    Hmmm, I'm tempted to add a poll to this thread...

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Your math teacher may not have helped things by talking about "decimal fractions". A question for you: what is the integer (in your 'mirror') that corresponds to 1/9 (= 0.111... recurring)?
    For completeness:-
    My initial attack on Cantors diagonal proof was that he could have used binary, and he could have put the set 0 to 1 (not including 1) in ascending order.

    The "missing" number, formed by changing digits along the diagonal, would then be .111 recurring. The reason it would be missing would be because we had not got to it yet, and never would, because it was the highest member of an infinite set. It seems to me now that the "proof" was unecessary, because the definition of countable is as it is. A clear case of conspiracy by mathemeticians ...

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    This Guardian article on American responses to dropping immunization rates seemed to belong in this discussion.
    Couple of things stand out:

    • In November 2007, New York state fined a doctor $10,000 (£7,000) and put him under supervision for falsifying certificates to help parents who were concerned about the risks of immunisation gain medical exemption from the MMR vaccine, in order for their children to attend school.


    Nice guy. Hired medical gun for sale. He and Wakefield would get along just fine.

    • "I might get them vaccinated when they are older, when their bodies can tolerate it. You have a responsibility first and foremost for doing what you feel is in your children's best interests," she says. The idea that her children were putting others at risk was "completely idiotic", she adds.


    This reminds me of a broadcast I listened to the other day, posted by Ben Goldacre on his Bad Science blog by Jeni Barnett on LBC.
    Quite how much ignorance she displayed in the course of the program is difficult to get across. She made many brain-freezingly stupid remarks, and the above was similar to one of them.

    This idea that you have to wait for ickle babbies to grow up before their bodies can 'tolerate' the vaccination is one that can only flourish among people who are ignorant about the human immune system yet have no idea how ignorant they are. The young child's immune system is every bit as robust as an adult's. It is the work that the child's system has to do that partially determines how good the adult is at throwing off infections. Put a toddler in a hypoallergenic environment, take him out as a 20 year old and (probably) watch him fall horribly and possibly fatally ill in a matter of days.
    Last edited by Barry Shnikov; 10th-February-2009 at 09:16 PM.

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Can I just say Barry. I love you.
    Of course.
    I vote Barry for Prime Minister!
    Good god! Don't say that. I'll end up assassinated in a dumpster behind the local shopping mall...

  12. #132
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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    For completeness:-
    My initial attack on Cantors diagonal proof was that he could have used binary, and he could have put the set 0 to 1 (not including 1) in ascending order.

    The "missing" number, formed by changing digits along the diagonal, would then be .111 recurring. The reason it would be missing would be because we had not got to it yet, and never would, because it was the highest member of an infinite set. It seems to me now that the "proof" was unecessary, because the definition of countable is as it is. A clear case of conspiracy by mathemeticians ...

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Thanks for the link to that Guardian article.

    I noticed this paragraph towards the end:
    "The number of measles cases in England and Wales hit 1,348 last year - the highest for 13 years, according to the Health Protection Agency. About 3 million children - one in four - have not had both MMR doses, which are necessary to ensure they are fully protected. The HPA warns that without wider uptake of the vaccine, there is a real risk of an epidemic of between 30,000 to 100,000 measles cases."

    I didn't know things have gone this far so far as vaccination rates, and yes it is worrying for all concerned.

    Can someone come up with a new conspiracy theory to take our minds off this? I do think those wishing to make dogs float need to make a reappearance (who said they don't float anyway?)

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    You clearly didn't read my "there's no point providing evidence to conspiracy theorists, because they never accept it" comment.
    If you have no evidence it kind of suggest the comment was facile

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
    I want to completely agree. Can I just end by referring to Astro, and thanking him for his posts on the MMR debate, and my condolences for the loss he feels his family may have suffered which may have been connected to it.
    I don't know anything about Andrew Wiles, have been skipping those boring posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    If you have no evidence it kind of suggest the comment was facile
    His instincts were initially right, but then his mind was won over by "medical evidence"


    BTW, until the mystery white car is located, plus it's driver, there is a missing jigsaw peice in the Diana consiracy IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
    Can someone come up with a new conspiracy theory to take our minds off this? I do think those wishing to make dogs float need to make a reappearance (who said they don't float anyway?)
    I'm surprised no one has mentioned Roswell.

    What do we think of that?

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    When i first read this Astro i must admit the feeling of wanting to have a go was quite over whelming.
    Hope you don't bring any eggs along to Skegness, Trouble.
    But after considering it for a further 5 mins ive decided that its your choice and i have no right to take that stance.
    "The first rule of any civilisation is this: let each individual be different."

    Not sure if the quote is exact. It's on the Holocaust memorial Plaque outside Hackney Town Hall.

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Hope you don't bring any eggs along to Skegness, Trouble.
    Nah...what Trouble really means is (and this applies to me as well) she wants to tell you you're a silly cow for not having your kids immunised but you're too nice so she'll leave you alone.

    You can betcha ass if you were a newbie, you'd be abused relentlessly, especially by me.

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Nah...what Trouble really means is (and this applies to me as well) she wants to tell you you're a silly cow for not having your kids immunised but you're too nice so she'll leave you alone.

    You can betcha ass if you were a newbie, you'd be abused relentlessly, especially by me.
    I'm not completely irresponsible, the kids had the homeopathic equivalent of the MMR and polio.

    But as everyone on the forum believes that Homeopathy is quackery, I hardly think mentioning that will help my case.

    Andy will be popping up soon. That's why I thought this belonged on the pharma thread.


    I am not convinced that Wakefield is right about the link between vaccinations and autism, but I am convinced that vaccinations are harmful, because some children do die or become disabled from them.

    My cousin became a vegetable, and the baby at my GP's died instantly.

    Imagine, that mother set out with her baby that morning to go to what she though was a safe place, the vaccination clinic at her doctors. Her baby was jabbed, and immediately died.

    I bet she never imagined that she wouldn't bring the baby back home with her.


    I wonder what the govt. statistics are on how much compensation they pay out?

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I'm not completely irresponsible, the kids had the homeopathic equivalent of the MMR and polio.

    um...

    But as everyone on the forum believes that Homeopathy is quackery, I hardly think mentioning that will help my case.
    quite

    I am not convinced that Wakefield is right about the link between vaccinations and autism, but I am convinced that vaccinations are harmful, because some children do die or become disabled from them.
    Well it would be nice if there were no nasty things that could kill us, then vaccines would not be needed. Interestingly though, even sites like this one that clearly have a bias against vaccines, have data like "over 100 children are killed every year by vaccines in the USA" which while that is clearly negative is surely preferable to the many more deaths that would occur from the diseases the vaccines prevent. Interestingly, 100 per year is exactly the same number of deaths from bee stings in the usa. (here). I can appreciate if lots of people dont immunise their children, there could well be an epidemic and lots of people could die. I wouldnt want to be part of the start of any epidemic.

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    Re: Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    BTW, until the mystery white car is located, plus it's driver, there is a missing jigsaw peice in the Diana consiracy IMO.
    Sigh. The only Diana conspiracy is the one in the mind of Mohamed Fayed.
    A trivial mention of a trivially untraced car does not mean that the overwhelming mundanity and ordinariness of a fatal car accident is elevated into a murder and a governmental cover-up!

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