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Thread: Conspiracy theories

  1. #21
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    For Gawd sakes! I have an open mind, I don't need it changing.
    See, there's "Having an open mind" and "being a nutter".

    Having an open mind means that you're willing to consider the evidence on both sides, and then decide. It doesn't mean you become perpetually gullible.

    Creationists, Holocaust deniers, USA torture deniers, Diana theorists - they all love "people with an open mind", because it's shorthand for "Well I know I'm wrong but I can't admit it".

    So, to clear up:
    • The Moon landings were real. All of them.
    • Diana died in an accidental car crash.
    • Evolution is how humans came about
    • 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis
    • The USA has indeed engaged in torture under the Bush administration
    • Man-made climate change is real and significant
    • Smoking causes cancer
    • The MMR vaccine does not cause autism


    These are not areas where it's acceptable to have an "open mind", if you don't accept these then you're either not well-informed, or irrational.

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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    See, there's "Having an open mind" and "being a nutter".

    Having an open mind means that you're willing to consider the evidence on both sides, and then decide. It doesn't mean you become perpetually gullible.
    I'm neither a nutter or gullible, I just like to consider all of the options. I have looked at loads of evidence that tries to discredit the fake moon landing conspiricy and it would seem that both sides have good arguments, but I'm not prepared to agree 100% with either argument, because both sides have unanswered questions.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    • The Moon landings were real. All of them.
    • Diana died in an accidental car crash.
    • Evolution is how humans came about
    • 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis
    • The USA has indeed engaged in torture under the Bush administration
    • Man-made climate change is real and significant
    • Smoking causes cancer
    • The MMR vaccine does not cause autism
    The last 6 I totally agree with, but there are plenty of forumites that would dismiss evolution due to there religious beliefs. Are they nutters?

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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    For Gawd sakes! I have an open mind, I don't need it changing. Like I said, I'm listening to all possibility...like this one, for example.
    I just love the way they managed to get wires on all the dust particles they kicked up. and the 6 inch or so reflections they got from a "wire"

    boringly, there is something on his helmet reflecting the sun into the camera, overexposing the image there, and enough to defeat the lens coatings which diminish the light reflecting off the lens system.

    There must be better links

    http://www.soundadviceblog.com/?p=145

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/grandth...sy/2532502749/

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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    I must take my hat off to those of you who have continued this "discussion" - its hugely entertaining, and long may it continue.......

    Please don't let me interfere in any way but just in case anyone is interested there is a website I've been shown recently where more information on one of those irrefutable statements can be found (though to my "open mind" this information probably serves as an exception to the rule rather than anything else).

    huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/government-concedes-vacci b 88323.html

    Do carry on regardless, and if NASA could be approached to give their latest response to the inquisition or conspiracy saying they made it all up then so much the better!

    Oh and there is this too:
    "Some people are suspicious that it's connected to the vaccines. This person included."

    ...and if President Obama thinks so, we ought to listen.

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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
    "discussion"


    Oh I see...you've not been on here long.

  6. #26
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
    I must take my hat off to those of you who have continued this "discussion" - its hugely entertaining, and long may it continue.......

    Please don't let me interfere in any way but just in case anyone is interested there is a website I've been shown recently where more information on one of those irrefutable statements can be found (though to my "open mind" this information probably serves as an exception to the rule rather than anything else).

    huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/
    Looking at David Kirby's blog, I see titles such as:

    • Senator Gillibrand: Supporter of Vaccine-Autism Research
    • Top Federal Autism Panel Votes For Millions in Vaccine Research
    • Change.org v Change.gov and Autism Recovery
    • US News -- Slow Down Vaccines for Some Kids?
    • The Pentagon -- A Voice of Reason on Vaccines and Autism?


    Hmmm... there's some subtle connection there, if only I could see it...

    Seriously, that utter scumbag Andrew Wakefield has caused untold damage to the health of children. Measles cases in the UK are now officially endemic - 1,348 last year, compared to 56 in 1998. And two kids have died. Not to mention the millions or tens of millions of pounds spent in refutation research, which could otherwise have been spent on healthcare.

    Wakefield falsified science for his own personal gain. The amazing thing is that he's not in prison for it.

    I can live with loonies talking about Diana conspiracies, or even Moon landings - but when these beliefs start to hurt kids, I'm not happy on that account.

    So don't give me any of this "Oh there might be something in it" junk - he's a liar, he's a fraud, and he's caused massive damage to children's health.

  7. #27
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Oh, and:
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    The last 6 I totally agree with, but there are plenty of forumites that would dismiss evolution due to there religious beliefs. Are they nutters?
    Yes.

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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    David I really don't want to change this most entertaining thread, so please keep on going with the moon landings "discussion" or "argument" or whatever it is - something akin to the "flat earth" debates people used to carry on.

    However, do bare in your "open mind" the following, first from David Kirby, regardless of his links:

    "What are the implications for the vaccine-autism debate?
    It's too early to tell. But this concession could conceivably make it more difficult for some officials to continue insisting there is "absolutely no link" between vaccines and autism."

    Then there is this taken from a recent inquest in Bristol:
    "Professor Elizabeth Miller, an immunisation expert for the Heath Protection Agency, said that the MMR jab can cause a febrile convulsion in one child in two to three thousand.

    She said the febrile convulsion would occur between six and 14 days after an MMR jab.
    "MMR can cause febrile convulsion at this time," she said. "If this child had a febrile convulsion 10 days after the MMR then it is likely to have been caused by the vaccine."
    She added: "Fatal outcomes associated with MMR vaccination as a result of febrile convulsion have not to my knowledge been reported."

    The attacks on Andrew Wakefield haven't yet lead to him being struck off have they, and it should be remembered he wasn't on his own in thinking as he did (a professor from Ireland assisted him in his research I believe). When parent after parent came before him with their damaged children you have to appreciate his desire to help them too don't you. It isn't as though there haven't been failures in medical opinion before. The parents from the Bristol case I've just given you believe they have been treated with disdain by the coroner appointed - why do this to parents who have suffered such a loss?

    In the end this may be simply a case that the benefits outweigh the risks, as with any other vaccine, but lets use that argument rather than asserting "its safe" when all this can mean is no one has yet proved otherwise, beyond the long list of side effects the manufacturers have already declared (did you know there was a long list, and a freedom of information battle going on by the Department of Health and the information commissioner to release more info into the public domain?).

    Anyway, back to the moon landings debate, why would NASA and the US do such a thing as make it all up? Russia must be involved too, and the Jodrell Bank observatory who beamed us back the pictures. My grandfather once met Sir Bernard Lovell, as a representative of the local councils in Cheshire, and I once met a guy who went out with his daughter. Having read a book on cosmology by Lovell I failed to pick up on any hint of a conspiracy surrounding the moon landing along with theories about the big bang, but he did muse about the future of mankind and whether "decadence" might overtake us in the not too distant future, and mean our downfall.

  9. #29
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
    The attacks on Andrew Wakefield haven't yet lead to him being struck off have they, and it should be remembered he wasn't on his own in thinking as he did (a professor from Ireland assisted him in his research I believe).
    He had 12 other "co-sponsors" of his work. Who have now withdrawn their names from that paper.

    However, these people - who yes, OK, should have known better - didn't know that he'd falsified his research, and didn't know that he was being paid £150 / hour (on legal aid, just to add insult to injury) to assist in the litigation proceedings against the government.

    So, let's be clear:
    - He lied about his research findings.
    - He was being paid quite a lot to lie about his research findings

    These are indisputable facts, they've been proved time and again. Do you dispute them?

    And if not, what makes you think I should listen to a proven liar and fraud? Should I also pay equally close attention to David Irving when he tells me that the Nazis had no gas chambers?

    Sorry, but this wasn't a "mistake", this wasn't just sloppy science, this was deliberate fraud.

  10. #30
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
    Anyway, back to the moon landings debate, why would NASA and the US do such a thing as make it all up?
    Because they're Evil

    Yes, this is the minor flaw in the otherwise-totally-robust conspiracy theory - why?

    Oh, and there's another teensy-weensy flaw when you ask "How did tens of thousands of people in many countries manage to keep this massive conspiracy a secret for decades?"

    I know, I'm probably just being a bit pedantic. I should focus on the important things like the exposure time of photographs taken in a vacuum or whatever.

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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I am disputing the validity of the spurious claim made by the USA that they landed on the moon in 1961.
    And you would be correct in doing so, as no moon landings were made in 1961. Although I've not actually heard any such claims myself.

    First lunar impact was achieved in 1959. By Russia.
    First actual landing was 1966. Russia again.
    Second landing was also 1966 - this time by the USA
    First manned landing was 1969.
    The last manned landing was in 1972.

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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    The islamic Terrorists were hoping he didn't become president for just these reasons. They wanted someone like Bush who was impulsive and champing at the bit.
    Its rather worrying that you know the mind of the Islamic terrorists so well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I am disputing the validity of the spurious claim made by the USA that they landed on the moon in 1961.
    61 ? Where did they claim they landed in 61 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    No don't have a link. The moon is a star though, not a planet.
    Colour me stupid, but I kinda thought it was a moon.

    What about the other Conspiracy Theory concerning the Moon that there is a colony of rich people with second homes on the moon since the 60's?
    Yes, that famous one. There are people that believe "The Clangers" was a documentary (which it was of course).


    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    So, to clear up:
    • The Moon landings were real. All of them.
    • Diana died in an accidental car crash.
    • Evolution is how humans came about
    • 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis
    • The USA has indeed engaged in torture under the Bush administration
    • Man-made climate change is real and significant
    • Smoking causes cancer
    • The MMR vaccine does not cause autism
    Sounds like a whole lot of crackpot theories there. You fruit. You forgot the crackpot theory that the September the 11th incidents were down to Islamic terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    The last 6 I totally agree with, but there are plenty of forumites that would dismiss evolution due to there religious beliefs. Are they nutters?
    Pretty much, yes I have yet to meet anyone who doesnt believe in evolution regardless of religious beliefs. I've read about them of course, but then i've read about Santa Clause too Which "plenty of forumites" are you talking about here ? Is it Barry? I always suspected...

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamg View Post
    but he did muse about the future of mankind and whether "decadence" might overtake us in the not too distant future, and mean our downfall.
    "decadence" can overtake us? I think bigotry and superstition are far more likely to be our downfall - still nothing like a bit of global genocide to make the human race stronger.

    look, now im depressed ...

  13. #33
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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    The point is, that the USA knew the Russians planned a moon landing, and not wanting the Russians to get their first, (remember the cold war?) the Yanks filmed what looked to the lay man like a moon landing, but it was filmed on planet earth I'm afraid, Barry.
    I think the 'cold war' wasn't real

    I mean I know as a FACT its often in the high 80s in Moscow and Washington so it cant have been cold all the time surely ??.

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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I think the 'cold war' wasn't real

    I mean I know as a FACT its often in the high 80s in Moscow and Washington so it cant have been cold all the time surely ??.
    So perhaps we should call it the 'seasonal war'?

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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    So, to clear up:
    [LIST]
    [*]Man-made climate change is real and significant


    These are not areas where it's acceptable to have an "open mind", if you don't accept these then you're either not well-informed, or irrational.
    If you provide ONE link as evidence that man made climate change is real and significant , 200 rep points on the way

    Please dont give me a link of a Polar bear swimming to an ice flow or show me how Florida could look in 75 years time if sea levels rose by 200ft etc

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    And you would be correct in doing so, as no moon landings were made in 1961. Although I've not actually heard any such claims myself.
    Pah, you obviously haven't read Planetary.

    But to clarify, the first manned Moon landings were launched in 1961 as part of the Artemis project. However, this failed because of a dimensional rift, and the four astronauts were given superhuman powers by a race of godlike beings, in return for agreeing to suppress technology for 50 years, at which point said godlike beings will invade Earth. So, 2011 is going to be a bad year.

    Huh? What do you mean "fiction"?

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    Conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    If you provide ONE link as evidence that man made climate change is real and significant , 200 rep points on the way
    You clearly didn't read my "there's no point providing evidence to conspiracy theorists, because they never accept it" comment.

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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I am not disputing that astronauts have landed on the moon.

    I am disputing the validity of the spurious claim made by the USA that they landed on the moon in 1961.
    WHAT?

    The US (officially, I mean, I don't know what claims may be made by nutjobs living in trailers in the Mojave desert) does not make any claims about moon landings in 1961. No American had even been into orbit in 1961 - John Glenn did that in 1962.

    Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, in the moon lander named 'Eagle', landed in the Mare Tranquillitatis in July 1969, as part of the Apollo 11 mission. The historical radio message was 'This is Tranquillity Base: the Eagle has landed'.

    No reputable astronomer has stated that the Apollo missions were fakes or that Apollo 11 did not land on the moon. I am sure however that reputable astronomers would agree that no moon landings took place in 1961.

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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    3. One NASA picture from Apollo 11 is looking up at Neil Armstrong about to take his giant step for mankind. The photographer must have been lying on the planet surface. If Armstrong was the first man on the Moon, then who took the shot?



    This is an interesting one...

    Would it be a picture robot thingy, that they sent out first to photo it?
    Gosh, or - I don't know - a camera mounted on the lunar module?

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    Re: Obama still gives me the creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    But to clarify, the first manned Moon landings were launched in 1961 as part of the Artemis project. However, this failed because of a dimensional rift, and the four astronauts were given superhuman powers by a race of godlike beings, in return for agreeing to suppress technology for 50 years, at which point said godlike beings will invade Earth. So, 2011 is going to be a bad year.
    Sounds believable. But, why so negative? I'm the sure the presence of godlike beings can only be a good thing (invasion? liberation you mean). I for one welcome our new godlike overlords.

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