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Thread: Playing with timings.

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    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
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    Playing with timings.

    I watched a lovely dance the other week where the Lead used a combination of fast and slow moves, - it seemed to work beautifully, - I only saw him for a short time, so I didn’t really get to work out whether the slow/fast action was a result of the moves that he chose to lead, or, if he was actually speeding up and slowing down.

    Should every ceroc move be led to the beat as taught in the lesson? Or, it is acceptable to slow down a move, - or part of a move, so for example; it takes twice as long?

    How can (& when can) timings be played with? Do you play with them? If so , how?


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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    I watched a lovely dance the other week where the Lead used a combination of fast and slow moves, - it seemed to work beautifully, - I only saw him for a short time, so I didn’t really get to work out whether the slow/fast action was a result of the moves that he chose to lead, or, if he was actually speeding up and slowing down.
    I would think that the slow/fast thing would be a reaction to the music or part of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    Should every ceroc move be led to the beat as taught in the lesson?
    No. Well, maybe until you progress beyond beginner level and are able to lead confidently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    Or, it is acceptable to slow down a move, - or part of a move, so for example; it takes twice as long?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    How can (& when can) timings be played with? Do you play with them? If so , how?
    Any time you like and any way you like, as long as you're doing it for a valid reason and not just because you can. i.e. the music demands it, or you've picked out a piece of the music that it fits with.

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    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Thanks for your input Gav.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    I would think that the slow/fast thing would be a reaction to the music or part of it?
    Yes, very much so. Although I wasn't sure if this was a result of the MOVES he chose, or whether he was speeding things up double time, or slowing things down double or, - a combination of both.

    Maybe I'm just trying to get my head around how exactly to express the dance I am being taught, to the music (if that makes sense).

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Gav pretty much answered your questions above

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    so I didn’t really get to work out whether the slow/fast action was a result of the moves that he chose to lead, or, if he was actually speeding up and slowing down.
    Should every ceroc move be led to the beat as taught in the lesson? Or, it is acceptable to slow down a move, - or part of a move, so for example; it takes twice as long?
    lead the move at the speed you want to do so (obviously keeping time to the music)
    How can (& when can) timings be played with? Do you play with them? If so , how?
    I almost always play with the timings of the moves speeding up slowing down stopping completely (for a fraction of a beat) it really depends on the music
    Last year we went to one of adam nathonsons musicality workshops this teaches you how to listen to the music picking out various phrases and separating the music into layers
    for example the bottom layer would be the overriding beat then you might have your various instruments lastly the top layer would be the vocals
    you can use any of these layers to determine what move you do and the speed of a that move
    certain moves really lend themselves to it such as a neck break the turn can be done at almost any speed so long as the follow can spin quickly

    a beginners move you could try playing with is the shoulder drop do the first return (on the second beat) very fast then pause look your partner in the eyes for the rest of the second beat before turning yourself on the third
    Last edited by martingold; 5th-February-2009 at 03:40 PM.

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    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Thanks for explaining the layers Martingold, - clearly i need to do a musicality workshop at some point. Nice example in regards to the shoulderdrop, - I understand what you're saying (speeding up or slowing down part of a move giving you a window to speed/slow down the next part) or such like. I have actually already done/tried(!) this, - it worked very nicely a few times, - on another occasion it did not! It was probably my interpretation of the music which left the Follow completely confused

    I have family who live in Witham, - maybe I'll see you at Braintree or Chelmsford etc sometime

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    Re: Playing with timings.

    That why I always love to dance with you Martin hun, I never know what move is coming next, and whether it'll be a fast spin or a slow drop!!

    And of course, you let me sabotage

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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    Thanks for explaining the layers Martingold, - clearly i need to do a musicality workshop at some point.
    Originally Posted by Martingold
    Last year we went to one of adam nathonsons musicality workshops this teaches you how to listen to the music picking out various phrases and separating the music into layers
    Hi Phil_dB

    Adam Nathansons workshops are the best I have been on for this sort of thing. If you do go to one try to go on his. The problem is he lives in New Zealand and he only comes over once every few months. They are worth waiting for though. If interested let us know and either Martingold or I will PM you next time he comes over. He nearly always does this workshop when he comes.

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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    Should every ceroc move be led to the beat as taught in the lesson?
    Yes and no. If you mean should every step follow the exact timing taught in class, the answer's no. But there are typically particular steps that really do need to land on a beat (there may be steps that should land on a particular part of the musical phrasing too, but that's getting complicated). If you're not hitting the beat, then you're not really dancing. But that doesn't mean you have to hit every beat. Double or half timing moves are relatively straightforward. Adding link steps and triples usually means a step off the main beat. Syncopating moves is a bit trickier, but all part of dancing.

    An example... in class last night, they did a a move with a little cog turn in it, followed by a step forward into a walk. The teacher gave us two counts to get round, but I find it much smoother to do that in one. That difference doesn't really matter, but the step forward has to land cleanly on a beat. And if the turn starts on the 3 of a phrase, it generally looks and feels better to hold for the 5 before stepping in to the walk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    Or, it is acceptable to slow down a move, - or part of a move, so for example; it takes twice as long?
    Ask the music. Randomly messing around with timing just looks silly. But doing do in response to the music is a big part of what dancing is all about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    How can (& when can) timings be played with?
    When the music tells you to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    Do you play with them? If so , how?
    Yes (although not always as successfully as I'd like). Primarily either speed-up or slowdown a move (or part of a move) to add an accent to the music. Sometimes it's to get the highlight in the right phrase for the music. Sometimes it's to add a contrast to the music (especially with a slow song, where you can snap a sequence of fast moves leading into the big highlight in the fourth phrase). I also use a lot of freezes and pauses, which are slightly different, but still affect the timing.

    One teacher I've got insists that most of this responsibility lies with the follow. That is, the lead's job is to maintain the beat and give the follow space. The lead leads a move when they have tension from the follow; during the move, they maintain connection, but the follow can control the pace of the movement; at the end of the move, the follow provides tension again returning control to the lead. I like this approach, but it's not the way ceroc is taught and I find relatively few dancers who dance this way (curiously, it is much more common in NZ, without being explicitly taught; I won't speculate on the reasons behind this...).

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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    (curiously, it is much more common in NZ, without being explicitly taught; I won't speculate on the reasons behind this...).
    The women have more musical role models?

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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Randomly messing around with timing just looks silly. But doing do in response to the music is a big part of what dancing is all about.
    I think that this is what Phil's trying to tease out - I don't think he's suggesting dancing off the beat. And I've been to a couple of home-grown musicality workshops where this has been taught although I'd say that you need to be very comfortable with leading the moves before you start chopping them up into their components and taking extra counts over some of these.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    One teacher I've got insists that most of this responsibility lies with the follow. That is, the lead's job is to maintain the beat and give the follow space. The lead leads a move when they have tension from the follow; during the move, they maintain connection, but the follow can control the pace of the movement; at the end of the move, the follow provides tension again returning control to the lead. I like this approach, but it's not the way ceroc is taught and I find relatively few dancers who dance this way (curiously, it is much more common in NZ, without being explicitly taught; I won't speculate on the reasons behind this...).
    SnowWhite teaches this kind of stuff to follows in regular classes. The result is quite a few follows who are very likely to seize control of the pace in all sorts of places.

    Sometimes it can be frustrating though - picture the night where you're in the zone, you're listening to a particular track and you can feel something building. You've got the timing just right and bring the follow forward into a travelling return ready for a dramatic pause ........... and right in the middle of it your lovely partner hears something different and takes over so you completely miss the pause .

    No, it's never happened to me, not at all, ................ever

    Agent 000
    Licensed to Dance

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kel_Warminster View Post
    That why I always love to dance with you Martin hun, I never know what move is coming next, and whether it'll be a fast spin or a slow drop!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kel_Warminster View Post
    And of course, you let me sabotage
    do i get much choice???

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post

    SnowWhite teaches this kind of stuff to follows in regular classes. The result is quite a few follows who are very likely to seize control of the pace in all sorts of places.
    only ever been to one of snow whites freestyles all i can say to that is wow bring it on
    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Sometimes it can be frustrating though - picture the night where you're in the zone, you're listening to a particular track and you can feel something building. You've got the timing just right and bring the follow forward into a travelling return ready for a dramatic pause ........... and right in the middle of it your lovely partner hears something different and takes over so you completely miss the pause .

    Agent 000
    Licensed to Dance
    half the fun of it is not realliy knowing exactly what will happen when you hit the dance floor
    i really dont build into much when i am dancing it just sort of happens and judging by the comments from follows that i get it works ok
    I absolutely love it when the follow takes over i will stand still and watch (gives us old people a chance to get our breath back )

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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    ... SnowWhite teaches this kind of stuff to follows in regular classes. The result is quite a few follows who are very likely to seize control of the pace in all sorts of places.

    Sometimes it can be frustrating though - picture the night where you're in the zone, you're listening to a particular track and you can feel something building. You've got the timing just right and bring the follow forward into a travelling return ready for a dramatic pause ........... and right in the middle of it your lovely partner hears something different and takes over so you completely miss the pause .

    No, it's never happened to me, not at all, ................ever

    Agent 000
    Licensed to Dance
    ... and I never strung together a few beginner moves whilst I mentally prepared for a Wow! moment, only for my partner to relieve the boredom by doing her own thing - which is never the bait wiggling on the end of a fishing line move... what is that called?

    It was a shame her Bedford class closed, I needed the practise, especially as I lack natural dwarfish talent.

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    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Hi Ant,

    thanks, I would be very interested if I am at a suitable level to attend by the time the workshop is available. I would guess it depends on what level of dancer the workshop is aimed at.

    Cheers
    Phil

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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    I watched a lovely dance the other week where the Lead used a combination of fast and slow moves, - it seemed to work beautifully, - I only saw him for a short time, so I didn’t really get to work out whether the slow/fast action was a result of the moves that he chose to lead, or, if he was actually speeding up and slowing down.
    He was probably not too concious of leading particularly fast or slow moves - just trying to match the movements to the music.

    Should every ceroc move be led to the beat as taught in the lesson? Or, it is acceptable to slow down a move, - or part of a move, so for example; it takes twice as long?
    I'm impressed- takes most folk a long time to work out that moves can be changed... normally people get 'board' with the moves taught and want more from them.
    so it's a big YES! change them, mix them up, make mistakes, have fun.

    How can (& when can) timings be played with? Do you play with them? If so , how?
    OK, now comes the down side - do it wrong or without consistency and you're just a bad lead. You need to establish what the follower is expecting in order to successfully lead a variation to it. This means that you need to be thinking one count ahead of where you are... which if you are listening to the music and trying to match it as well, is really hard. You need to be able to lead the basic bits (as taught) with clarity, confidence and consistency. That takes time and "practice" {ie dancing }.

    Every count of every move can be changed and modified. To start with, try echoing a bit of a move (eg don't finish a first move, go back into the turn-out bit again.) or holding the 'block' point in a move for a couple of counts (eg on the yo-yo, hold the 'open out' for an additional count before coming to face or on a swizzle, wait an additional count before turning them out.)


    Have a look at my 'moves,moves,moves' workshop thingie - should give you some ideas. {that and others are linked on my syg}

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    Re: Playing with timings.

    I always think there is lot's of scope for interpretation in MJ timings.

    Certainly there is nothing wrong and everything to praise in matching moves to tempo. Twisty more complex moves to (in relative terms) higher speed passages, but smooth more expressive moves to (in relative terms) slower passages. I like that.

    I have danced with follows who have this habit all the time of 'speeding up'/'spinning somewhat faster', to speed up the end of a move and allow a tini bit more time at anchor. I'm not talking matching music here, this is all the time and neither are we talking off the beat, it's more subtle than that, but it's a definite deliberate decision. It gives the dance a somewhat snappier style at the expense of a little smoothness. If I dance with one of these follows, it takes me three or four moves to realize this and give them that little bit more momentum to play with at the end of moves, but once it clicks, everything works fine. It's just a little bit different.

    Everybody has the right to have a unique timing style (subject to the usual, don't kill anyone provisos ). This is one of the things you negotiate during lead and follow IMO. The timing style I describe above is (about) 7/8's exactly the same as mine. And it's consistant. There is no reason on earth why our two slightly different timings should create a problem.

    I think this is something you can decide before hand. I know what I would like the timings of my moves to be like because I have seen it in action. I would like my timing to be the same as the top WCS dancers. On the beat, more importantly on the back of the beat, smooth as you like, with a healthy dollop of musicality that can override the beat for short periods. That is the framework for the timing I would like me to have

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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I have danced with follows who have this habit all the time of 'speeding up'/'spinning somewhat faster', to speed up the end of a move and allow a tini bit more time at anchor. I'm not talking matching music here, this is all the time and neither are we talking off the beat, it's more subtle than that, but it's a definite deliberate decision. It gives the dance a somewhat snappier style at the expense of a little smoothness. If I dance with one of these follows, it takes me three or four moves to realize this and give them that little bit more momentum to play with at the end of moves, but once it clicks, everything works fine. It's just a little bit different.
    You're right: it is a different (but related) thing and, done well, it looks fantastic and is great to dance with. And it's not just follows who do that. Although I know it pretty well (and like it), I do find it takes a little getting used to when someone starts doing it.

    I don't agree that it has to be done at the expense of smoothness. Done badly, it kills the smoothness of every step/movement. But done well, it can produce smoothest dancing. I say that, because I learnt it doing the smoothest dance I know: rhumba. The principle is you cover 90/95% of the movement as quickly as possible (whether on a step or a turn doesn't matter). Then you use the rest of the beat to complete the final 5/10% of the movement, getting to the accent on the beat. In latin, that's where you settle your hip, maximising the extension when you get to the end of the beat. I really like this because, when done well, it gives you a lot more time to lead the next variant. I find it's the step back that makes a move look smooth or not.

    While I'm back on this thread there's one other point worth adding in...

    Think a little about the moves you try and vary the timing on. Most moves can be varied some how, but the same variations don't work as well. A couple of obvious examples: any move with a ronde looks dumb sped up; a shimmy just doesn't work at half speed. Part of playing with the timing is changing the tempo of specific moves. But the other part is changing the tempo of the dance by selecting different moves.

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post

    I have family who live in Witham, - maybe I'll see you at Braintree or Chelmsford etc sometime
    would be good to see you down at chelmsford sometime come say hello virtually everyone there knows me just ask for martin the quiet one on the door i will show you what i mean with some of the moves i play with
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post

    thanks, I would be very interested if I am at a suitable level to attend by the time the workshop is available. I would guess it depends on what level of dancer the workshop is aimed at.
    these are usually aimed at more experienced dancers only because of a confidence thing as the moves he uses are just beginners moves (no need to make it more complicated than nesesary)

    when he teaches it he will get you to freestyle to a few different types of music from general ceroc through smooth chill out to lindy and swing
    imho so long as you can string a few moves together you would learn a great deal from his class

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    change them, mix them up, make mistakes, have fun.

    also when you first do it try to play with somoene you are confident dancing with who is up for a laugh you will make mistakes and then both can have a good laugh and carry one dancing
    end of the day as with just about everything you will be told in here and elsewhwere its about finding your own comfort zone and style sadly no one can teach you that
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    You need to establish what the follower is expecting in order to successfully lead a variation to it. This means that you need to be thinking one count ahead of where you are... which if you are listening to the music and trying to match it as well, is really hard. You need to be able to lead the basic bits (as taught) with clarity, confidence and consistency. That takes time and "practice" {ie dancing }.

    a lot of this comes down to that magic word you will hear bandied about on here "connection" feel in your heart what your partner wants and try to do it
    when i dance i dont really care what others looking in think its completely done by the look on my partners face and the feel of the connection between us and the music lets face it most women can dance us men need to learn how to so let their feelings dictate the way you lead the dance

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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    SnowWhite teaches this kind of stuff to follows in regular classes. The result is quite a few follows who are very likely to seize control of the pace in all sorts of places.

    Sometimes it can be frustrating though - picture the night where you're in the zone, you're listening to a particular track and you can feel something building. You've got the timing just right and bring the follow forward into a travelling return ready for a dramatic pause ........... and right in the middle of it your lovely partner hears something different and takes over so you completely miss the pause .

    No, it's never happened to me, not at all, ................ever

    Agent 000
    Licensed to Dance
    Oh I say! The right track is on and your favourite partner, for this track, is dancing with you. Your hitting the breaks and dramatic bits like a Japanese sniper, it is all going very well indeed. You are planning a dramatic pose for the upcoming break and just treading water until the time to start the preperation moves for the big one! Your off, timing is bang on, you float thro the moves and get set for the move when.... BANG she fu*ks off somewhere else, and you are left looking like a mentalist! SMILE and flow back to her like liquid chocolate and desperatly try not to strangle her there and then.

    Regroup, reorg and crack on with preperation for the next big move. Hello, she is glowing here mind! Give her a bit of time and space and lets see what happens? She's in the zone now, so give her the dance it is all her's now. All I do then is feed her what she wants, how do I know what she wants? Trial and error, at this stage it is all about her.

    Only happens now and again, but well worth it.


    DTS XXX XXX

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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Sometimes it can be frustrating though - picture the night where you're in the zone, you're listening to a particular track and you can feel something building. You've got the timing just right and bring the follow forward into a travelling return ready for a dramatic pause ........... and right in the middle of it your lovely partner hears something different and takes over so you completely miss the pause .
    Focus on your partner as much as the music (and more than on yourself)... and you'll rarely be caught unawares by something like this, and far more prepared to incorporate it into whatever plans you have going.

    Even if it takes you by surprise - don't be annoyed by it - treat it as an opportunity. Much more fun that way.

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    Re: Playing with timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    when i dance i dont really care what others looking in think its completely done by the look on my partners face and the feel of the connection between us and the music
    Wise words Martin, wise words.

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